U.K. Court: PS2 Not a Computer

[Black Dragon37]

Looks like Sony Computer Entertainment is 0 for 2 in recent legal battles. First they lost their lawsuit with Immersion Corp. and now the company's fight to have the PS2 classified as a computer has failed. Sony was hoping to gain over $60M in refunds on EU import charges.

 

[bRoNx]

What is a computer?

A device that computes, especially a programmable electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information.

Don't game consoles do this? Or do they want a computer with MS Word running on it, and a mouse and keyboard for input?

I don't get it! Someone please explain!

 

[Gollum]

The way I see it is that while game consoles are of course based on computer technology, typical computer functionality (like you quoted) is completely invisible and inaccessible to the user. You can pretty much only insert a game disc and press start, that's it. You can't do mathematical calculations, simulations, create custom software or do any of the other things computers were created for. Thus it is NOT a computer, despite using similar or even partly identical technology...

 

[bRoNx]

The way I see it is that while game consoles are of course based on computer technology, typical computer functionality (like you quoted) is completely invisible and inaccessible to the user. You can pretty much only insert a game disc and press start, that's it. You can't do mathematical calculations, simulations, create custom software or do any of the other things computers were created for. Thus it is NOT a computer, despite using similar or even partly identical technology...

Thanx. I see where you/judge's ruling are coming from, but I was going by the actual definition of a computer, not what some judge somewhere perceives a computer to be...because that's a whole debate on it's own.

Oh well, I'm more interested to see what they do/happens with Immersion...

 

[Rys]

Adding the word 'personal' would have gone a long way.

 

[Nesh]

What is a computer?

Don't game consoles do this? Or do they want a computer with MS Word running on it, and a mouse and keyboard for input?

I don't get it! Someone please explain!

No reason to explain. It is a computer. So is GC and XBOX. But you know how stupid bureaucracy is.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I'd say the one of the keywords in the dictionary definition is programmable - under normal circumastances, to the end user, its not a programmable device; a PS2 dev kit is a programmable device (but thats also a different product).

 

[StefanS]

No reason to explain. It is a computer. So is GC and XBOX. But you know how stupid bureaucracy is.

There's probably an accurate definition in the customs guidelines what exactly is considered to be a "computer". Apparently PS, etc. does not fit that description and thus the ruling is very likely correct.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What is a computer?

Don't game consoles do this? Or do they want a computer with MS Word running on it, and a mouse and keyboard for input?

I don't get it! Someone please explain!

Computers appear in so many forms these days. You can't really class a Washing Machine or Automobile or DVD player as a computer, but most have computing power way in excess of computers of old.

Dave is probably right on the programmable aspect, though that's hazy. PS2 came with that weak BASIC as standard and was thus programmable.

Perhaps it more a case of considering the available software? The PlayStation library is almost exclusively games software. There's no office applications and outside a couple of more recent additions like Video Conferencing and a Personal Physical Trainer, all it's good for is playing games. The Linux kit isn't part of the standard package either. I'm quite sure a PS2+Linux would class as a computer, but the console on it's own, regardless of the technology's potential to be versatile and programmable, satisfies a pretty singular role.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Dave is probably right on the programmable aspect, though that's hazy. PS2 came with that weak BASIC as standard and was thus programmable.

LOL! Googling indicates that Yabasic was only included in the European and Australasian demos disks purely as an attempt to circumvent this European tax.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well you can't blame them for trying...

 

[Nesh]

LOL! Googling indicates that Yabasic was only included in the European and Australasian demos disks purely as an attempt to circumvent this European tax.

Yep that was true. PS2 was supposed to get extra taxed in Europe because it was considered if my memory serves me right a "toy". Sony introduced Yabasic to show its programmable abilities, so it would get listed as a computer and thus avoid the taxes.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Assuming that you guys are correct, I like the ruling. It will encourage Sony to make the default system more programmable. It sounds like they are going to do this anyway with the PS3, but this is just more incentive to give the user access to program the system. With a default linux install with all of the GNU development tools and various linux software, it would be almost impossible not to call it a computer.

Nite_Hawk

 

[predicate]

The EU law that made them fight this (tax dodging, essentially) doesn't exist any more, so they're not pushing the 'PS3 is a computer' for that reason.

They seem to be pushing it because they genuinely want people to believe it is a computer, which is even more distressing.

 

[Titanio]

There is not a technical argument to be had here. Every console is a computer, there are computers all around you embedded in umpteen devices. Too many people seem to read "PC" wherever they see "computer", but computer is an umbrella term that takes in anything that..well..computes.

The issue addressed here was purely a tax classification one, probably based on use cases, intended purpose etc. That has little to do with a technical classification.

 

[StefanS]

The issue addressed here was purely a tax classification one, probably based on use cases, intended purpose etc. That has little to do with a technical classification.

Exactly. It is not about wether or not consoles are computers, but if they are taxed as such.

 

[Arwin]

They seem to be pushing it because they genuinely want people to believe it is a computer, which is even more distressing.

Distressing ... hmm. If Linux is on this machine, great! It will be a better machine than I currently have. Right now, I have a 256mb XP 1800+ with a 9600 Pro 128mb card, a 40Gb harddrive, and 2 USB 1.1 ports as my best machine. The PS3 would be a step up, and I would be able to use it for a lot of the things I typically do with my PC.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

It wasn't like it was close.

And this wasn't the initial case.. once again, this was the appeal.

Lord Justice Chadwick dismissed Sony's entire claim as a "skeleton argument."

He wrote, "In my view the skeleton argument filed in this Court on behalf of Sony goes beyond what can be regarded as acceptable written advocacy: it exceeds the bounds of propriety..."

"I am not here protesting about its inordinate length, nor about its discursive quality, nor about its frequent and unnecessary resort to hyperbole; although all those unappealing features are present. My concern is with the repeated aspersions that are cast in that document on the intellectual honesty of the High Court Judge from whose decision this appeal is brought," concluded Chadwick.

Pretty damn harsh, if you ask me.

Chadwick essentially said 'We know you were trying to circumvent our tariffs, we already ruled that you can't do that, and now you're wasting the appeal court's time because you apparently think the previous Judge is an idiot. He's not, I'm not, and you aren't getting a refund nor can you appeal this any further.'

 

[Shifty Geezer]

He he. I like the way even in their court hearings Sony use Hype. Force of habit, I guess. Maybe the judge was disgruntled at not having an inclusive online network revolution from his own PS2 rendering Toy Story in realtime?

 

[TheChefO]

He he. I like the way even in their court hearings Sony use Hype. Force of habit, I guess. Maybe the judge was disgruntled at not having an inclusive online network revolution from his own PS2 rendering Toy Story in realtime?

Or maybe he couldn't get the ps2 interface working to launch a missle or two out of his backyard.