The stupidest situation ever? (360 related)

[Sis]

Are not all games required to run without HDD?

Do you have a link to this requirement? I think the sentiment is: As a dev, you can't rely on the HDD being present--just like the MU. I have no way of knowing if this is a requirement for Xbox certification, but then again, I don't think you know either...

.Sis

 

[pharmer100]

What do you even mean by "people that probably aren't going to buy them"?

Thats the point I was trying to make in my first post/rant

Allard said that 75% of xbox 1 users haven't even played Halo - thats the people the core option is based at - the casual gamer. However, by making all games be playable by any 360 version they are forcing the developer to cater their products to people that have no interest in it. Which I thought was quite strange. Obviously I am in the minority.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Links?

It's from the creator of Grand Theft Auto.

Basically a MMO-GTA where users can either play as the good guys, or the bad guys in these huge interactive cities.

Here's a concept trailer: http://downloads.gamezone.com/demos/d12692.htm
Official Website: http://www.apb.com/

 

[scooby_dooby]

Do you have a link to this requirement? I think the sentiment is: As a dev, you can't rely on the HDD being present--just like the MU. I have no way of knowing if this is a requirement for Xbox certification, but then again, I don't think you know either...

.Sis

As far as we know the only requirements for certification are 5.1, 720p and 2xAA. I believe that comes from an announcement at E3?

We also know that MMO's by their nature really require a HDD that they can Cache too, so these games already will be HDD-Only.

Considering a) we know MMO will be HDD Only and b) there's been no official announcement that games cannot be HDD-only, we can only assume that Developers are free to create HDD-only games if they wish.

Of course....any of you developers can jump in at any time!!

 

[Confidence-Man]

Thats the point I was trying to make in my first post/rant

Allard said that 75% of xbox 1 users haven't even played Halo - thats the people the core option is based at - the casual gamer. However, by making all games be playable by any 360 version they are forcing the developer to cater their products to people that have no interest in it. Which I thought was quite strange. Obviously I am in the minority.

Alright, but explain to me what's bad about making sure their games will run without a hard drive. You make it sound like they're being hampered in some way.

 

[pharmer100]

Alright, but explain to me what's bad about making sure their games will run without a hard drive. You make it sound like they're being hampered in some way.

.

There is loads of stuff about this that has been covered quite extensively There is a really good post by scooby that summarises the key points in the last couple of pages- but its a bit large so I won't post it here.

But as we are talking about Halo - I believe that without a harddrive the fact that all the enemies you kill stay there (even if you come back hours later) instead of disapearing like most other games couldn't be done.

It maybe able to be done in 360 by using RAM instead - but that means you are taking the RAM away from use in other areas.

 

[Guden Oden]

I am wrong then? - Can developers release HDD only games on the 360?

What I meant was, what makes you think devs had to be forced by MS to make games NOT harddrive only?

Then there's the whole dealie about why would they even want to make games harddrive only due to the previously stated reasons.

Devs are gonna use the harddrive, and MS have from what they say themselves consistently been telling devs not to assume it will be present in a system. At no point do they seem to have been advocating a harddrive only position to their devs. So, you seem upset all over nothing really.

 

[pharmer100]

What I meant was, what makes you think devs had to be forced by MS to make games NOT harddrive only?

I had got that impression from all the discussions on the forums about the subject. If I am wrong (and I would love to be) you are right - I am bothered about nothing and I am one happy bunny!
.....but I wonderif people who are ordering the core system instead of the HDD version know this?

 

[Guden Oden]

Seriously, what is up with you?

"Up" is a relative concept.

If that's an F-boy rant, than what should a post like your "X-360 IS HOT" be called?

Cause it is? Or, do you deny that it is? It will be the most powerful dedicated gaming hardware this side of PS3, and in many aspects it'll be beating *everything* out there. I certainly think that qualifies it a denomination of being "hot".

And what would you call it when everytime someone has a complaint about the new direction of the 360 you are right there downplaying it?

Because people are complaining about largely irrelevant things in an overly emotional and illogical manner. They - being self-professed "hardcore gamers" - worry about things that does not concern the vast majority of actual gamers that do not care all that much about the particular bits and bobs inside a console, and rather simply wether the latest splinter cell or metal gear game is available for it.

It's not a live or die issue for most people wether all x360s are delivered with a harddrive or not, and that not all WILL be delivered with one is not anything that will affect their wish to buy one. They do not feel betrayed by MS by their decision to sell core systems that are HDD-less, because they lack sufficient attachment to that piece of plastic that is the x360 console.

You get what I'm saying here?

 

[Mr_Puffy]

Are not all games required to run without HDD?

Well Allard hints at it here.

J Allard (Expert):
Q: Will developers utilize the hard drive when one is detected, or will most games be made without using it at all? Will the HD speed up load times?

A: speeding up load times is one of the many things a hard drive can be used for but really it is up to the imagination of the developer. we have been talking with game developers for a while now to make sure that games will load efficiently without a hard drive present. in terms of load times, as a gamer i am super sensitive to how frustrating load times can be which is one of the reasons we put in a dual layer 12x dvd in the system to make sure gamers get great perf with or without a hard drive. one of the challenges with new optical formats when they first come out is the performance of the media which was a consideration when we decided what the optical format for xbox 360 would be.

from: http://www.major-nelson.com/blogcast/2005/jallardchat-8-21-05.txt

 

[Acert93]

Puffy,

All that statement says is that games need to load effeciently w/o the HDD. i.e. Don't make your game so dependant on the HDD for caching loads to reduce load time that gamers w/o a HDD suffer through unrealistically long load times.

Epic stated they knew for a while not to expect the HDD.

The question becomes: Can a developer create a game that requires the HDD to function.

The fact the 360 is going to have MMOGs, I think it is a given there will be games that require a HDD and online access (similar to past gens that required a light gun, rumble pack, power pad, or whatever to work).

We may not see any at launch, but at some point a company like Square is going to want to release a game that needs a HDD.

The saving grace for MS in this situation is 1. the HDD is available AT LAUNCH 2. Xbox developers are familiar with it and will probably utilize it to some degree 3. the HDD is a goo deal compared to the mem card and will spur on decent enough sales and 4. I am guessing the major SKU available this year will be the HDD SKU. I would not be shocked if come Fall 2006 50% of Xbox owners had the HDD.

That would be a pretty big foundation and allow some developers to take a risk at requiring a HDD. More "hard core" & online gamers will tend toward the HDD, so a game that is more "Hardcore / Online" oriented they probably would not hurt sales too much by focusing on this demographic.

But if it were me, knowing that A.) probably less than 50% of total Xbox customers will ever own a HDD and B.) the PS3 wont have it standard either, well, for pure economically reasons I would make my game w/o the HDD in mind.

If you are a cross platform developer you need to hit the minimum standard. Standard or not in the Xbox, it still could not be counted on in the PS3.

The good news is next-next-gen mass storage media should be a lot cheaper. With flash reducing 40-50% every year I could see 32-64GB flash memory going for $100ish in 2010/2011. That would mean realistically one could get in bulk 16GB in the $20-$30 range AND with the promise that it would continue to drop in price year after year.

Of course consoles in the 2010-2012 range will have 2GB-4GB of memory

Now that I think about it we already are seeing a snap shot of that time frame... Intel just announced a 1.3B transistor CPU for the server market. That is about the projection of the Xbox 3 CPU. We already see servers with 4GB of memory. With multi-die arrangements and scalable architectures like GPUs (not to mention 45nm looking really promising, maybe even early!) I see no reason why the next gen cannot be as big of a leap as this one is. Which is not huge, but a massive quality evolution for the better!

With that evolution hopefully comes a cheap mass storage medium so everyone is on board from day one next time.

Worse case? MS's Xbox 360 HDD can be used in the Xbox 720 W00t detatchable HDD!! Now if they had only done this with the Xbox1 you guys would be happy!!

 

[Sean*O]

It will be the most powerful dedicated gaming hardware this side of PS3, and in many aspects it'll be beating *everything* out there. I certainly think that qualifies it a denomination of being "hot".

It's very obvious that you think so. I want to hear more about how great the X360 will be, but please clarify something for me first,

I always thought an "F-Boy" as you put it, was someone who took the company's stance, not someone who disagreed with it. I guess I must be completely backwards with that definition? …Because it doesn't fit with your usage of the term,

As to weather or not people are of sound mind when they complain about MS marketing tactics and the new direction they have taken the X platform? It doesn't really matter. Irrational & emotional or not, it all adds up to many having bad feelings towards the X platform when those same people (from the time Xbox originally launched up until about a week ago) had given it their support.

In fact, you are one of the few people I have come across who was not let down in the slightest by MS' X360 CORE announcement. If MS can find about 60 million more like you, they will have themselves a winner.

 

[Guden Oden]

I always thought an "F-Boy" as you put it, was someone who took the company's stance, not someone who disagreed with it.

Oh, there's F-boys that are more attached to the product than the company behind it, and it is those that now are upset and feel betrayed by the core/premium setup. I think that's just plain silly, the point of a games console is to play games with, not to have a harddrive included with it when you buy it.

As to weather or not people are of sound mind when they complain about MS marketing tactics and the new direction they have taken the X platform?

I don't think it's all that new. Listening to what developers say, it's clear the decision to have HDD-less systems was made quite a while ago. Those that are upset now are those that listened too much to idiot suits like that Allard guy and got their hopes up too much, and suits always blab too damn much for their own good. Suits = marketing people, even though they don't have marketing in their job description/title. They're there to make their product look as good as possible and make people all hyper about it. That's why people shouldn't take a single word they say seriously. Ken Kutaragi is another notorious blabber I might add, I don't listen to him either.

It doesn't really matter. Irrational & emotional or not, it all adds up to many having bad feelings towards the X platform when those same people (from the time Xbox originally launched up until about a week ago) had given it their support.

Well then they shouldn't buy it! Nobody's forcing them.

I feel though that they feel negative for the wrong reason. The console itself will play games just as well regardless of if some systems are sold without harddrives.

In fact, you are one of the few people I have come across who was not let down in the slightest by MS' X360 CORE announcement. If MS can find about 60 million more like you, they will have themselves a winner.

Well, to be quite honest I was a little bit disappointed by this, because I too got excited by the prospect of a very powerful piece of kit WITH a harddrive sold at a rather low $300 price point. But when this news struck, I also realized that while disappointing, it would also shut up all those xbots who were busy slamming PS3 supporters because PS3's not slated to include a harddrive. So there really are two sides to every issue!

Also, we had some advance warning this would happen when rumors of a HDD-less version started doing the rounds. I didn't really take them seriously, but when MS's announcement came they made sense to me so I can't say I was all that perturbed really. I try not to get in too deep with my hardware, heh. I used to *HATE* Atari back in the day (I owned an Amiga), and I was quite unfond of the inferior megadrive as a SNES owner too. Then I grew up! Heh...