The stupidest situation ever? (360 related)

[pharmer100]

“ now folks……..must recognize that more than 75% of the folks on xbox have not played halo. By introducing the core system we are sending a signal to the market that we are committed to this part of the market just like with the xbox 360 premium bundle that we are committed to you†– J Allard on Major Nelson’s Blog

Now, as I understand the situation at the moment, every 360 game (expect MMG’s? ) has to work with both the MC and HDD version of the 360 - upsetting a lot HDD fans who believe it will lead to the dumbing down of games (among other things).

Now it only just occurred to me what the quoted statement from J ALLARD above and the decision by MS that every game must work for the MC actually means:-

It means that the developers of games like Halo are being forced to ensure that their games can be played by people with the Core system EVEN THOUGH THEY AREN’T INTERESTED IN THEM AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF BUYING THEM. It is just me or is that the stupidest situation ever?

So if MS are so set on the non standard future and they are soooo committed to fully supporting the purchasers of both 360 versions - why not leave it to the developer to decide if they want to make their game HDD only or not?

Now at first glance this seems to be a stupid idea – why would any developer want to purposely reduce the amount of people they can sell their game to? However, if the demographics differences in the purchasers of the 2 versions are big as MS believe, then in fact the developer still has (by and large) the same number of potential customers, “HDD only†game or not. This is because the potential market for the game is really only those people who are interested in buying the game – not the number of persons whose system can support it.

So, MS - give developers a choice. Let market choice rule.

IF MS did do this then perhaps all the potential purchasers of the full HDD systems would actually start thinking the MS actually cared about them again. Because at the moment the whole of MS strategy seemed aimed at the casual gamers, who is paying less for his system. Fair?

Nevertheless, Microsoft could actually take a good hard look at the (supposed) demographics of the 2 different system purchasers and make the process a bit more formal for both camps.

Now that’s say (for example) that (most) core buyers are only interested in the latest sports and driving games. They are not interested in Live and have never played a RPG in their life.

Now market forces would probably mean that the sports game developers would cater to the MC people anyway – but just to make sure MS can make it formal –“If you want to produce a sports game on the 360 – it has to be MC complaint. This way the CORE users know they are always going to be able to play the vast majority of the types of games they purchased the system for in the first place.

Then the decision to go “HDD only†or not, for those games that aren’t of interest to the (majority of) CORE users can be left to the developer. This means they don’t have to make any comprise in the quality or types of games they produce.

I think this makes a lot more sense for buyers of HDD 360 then the present situation. Of course, no situation is going to mean everybody is happy, but I think it would certainly mean an increase in happy xbox fans then the present situation.

The main potential losers in this situation I can see would be the guy who purchases the CORE just to play sports games and later want to play HDD only games. Fine, MS could make sure all “HDD only†games come with a half price voucher for the HDD (or something similar) to cater for this guy as well.

Sorry for the long post guys.

Any opinions – is this an appealing comprise to the 2 SKU situation or not?

 

[Guden Oden]

It means that the developers of games like Halo are being forced to ensure that their games can be played by people with the Core system EVEN THOUGH THEY AREN’T INTERESTED IN THEM AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF BUYING THEM. It is just me or is that the stupidest situation ever?

Your entire post reads like an upset technogeek f-boy rant. What makes you think devs are "forced" to do anything of the sort? Devs are of course first and foremostly interested in selling as many copies of their games as possible, this includes making the game compatible with x360s both with and without the harddrive.

I don't see what you think they'd have to gain by dumping HD-less xboxers. Rather, they'd only have things to lose from doing so, including limiting their user base and alienating potential customers. Makes no sense!

This is because the potential market for the game is really only those people who are interested in buying the game – not the number of persons whose system can support it.

Duh.

And you also have to understand that the people who are interested in buying a game don't neccessarily correlate exactly with the people whose x360s which can support a HD-only game (ie: some would like to, but can't afford the HDD).

I can't be bothered with commenting the rest of your overly polarized post because you are too busy separating this into an us-them matter. There's no inherent division between users who bought one version of the system and those that bought the other. Those that don't feel like forking out the extra money for the expensive version of the system should be able to enjoy themselves as well, and there's nothing "unfair" about you or someone else paying that extra money for a version with the HDD and then not getting any HDD-only games. You made a conscious choice to spend your money - you could just as well have elected not to!

 

[pharmer100]

Your entire post reads like an upset technogeek f-boy rant. What makes you think devs are "forced" to do anything of the sort?

I am wrong then? - Can developers release HDD only games on the 360?

Glad you liked the post! - I won't bother replying to the rest of your points - we aren't going to agree on anyting things, so its a bit pointless.

 

[blakjedi]

In truth, MS is creating an US/THEM situation.

"now folks……..must recognize that more than 75% of the folks on xbox have not played halo. By introducing the core system we are sending a signal to the market that we are committed to this part of the market just like with the xbox 360 premium bundle that we are committed to youâ€￾

All the Xbox owners without a HDD, please raise your hand....? Exactly.

I'd say either make the system with it... or without it... but dont make two skus...

You can support "that" part of the market with games that "cater" to them.. not systems that "cater" to them (although it is beyond me how giving people less is catering to them...)

If the HDD isnt fundamental, and wont benefit my game experience, and its just to stream music or some crap, who needs it? Its just an expensive worthless add on. If it does improve my game experience then why wouldn't I want it as a gamer of any stripe?

 

[Powderkeg]

If the HDD isnt fundamental, and wont benefit my game experience, and its just to stream music or some crap, who needs it? Its just an expensive worthless add on. If it does improve my game experience then why wouldn't I want it as a gamer of any stripe?

There are 6+ billion people on this planet. Certainly you don't think that just because you think something is worthless, everyone else does too. Nobody could be that arrogant.

 

[blakjedi]

There are 6+ billion people on this planet. Certainly you don't think that just because you think something is worthless, everyone else does too. Nobody could be that arrogant.

Maybe I'm not sure where you're coming from but I'll chalk it up to you mis-reading/inserting some personal bias into the post.

Lookee here: If you are streaming music to your living through your X360 because you have a hard drive in it.... you could skip the x360 and stream (obviously there's a PC around right?) directly from your PC to your stereo. Or since more people have MP3 players and IPODS than will ever have a 360 you could play directly from that.

Highly non-technical normal people are doing that now. I'm technical and normal and I do that already. Same with video.

I just came back from teh West Indies and WHOLE parties were thrown off some guy's Ipod plus a base station...

 

[Acert93]

Allard made some really clear points that obviously upset some, but there is some substance to it

1. The HDD was under used this generation. FACT.

Developers had 4 years to demonstrate how a HDD makes gaming better. From what I hear Mr. Gates was a little ticked seeing the PS2 online when he had been told the Xbox would require a HDD for online gaming.

Outside of some "extra" features the HDD made almost no difference this gen. We did not see any meaninglyfull new break out "must have" games or even new genres that REQUIRED the HDD in a way that a dev could not make a game work with a memory card.

2. Only about 20% of consoles shipped this generation had a HDD. As long as the big players do not make it standard, from a *developer* stand point it is not a standard piece of HW and will continue to be under utilized. I made this point before, and Allard explicitly made this point.

It sucks, but it is true. Until MS owns well over 50% of the market OR Sony gets on board with "HDD standard" it will never be a prime feature.

Segmented install bases SUCK for publishers and the key is making the BEST game that works on the MOST consoles. So if MS is the only player with a HDD standard, cross platform devs wont have much incentive to make HDD-specific

3. Devs can pretty easily put "if HDD, then cache" statements in their code. A couple said this would not be difficult.

4. Just as their are "Online ONLY" games, there will be "HDD ONLY" games. Certain large, persistant world games will require this. But then again they could just require online access and use remote servers OR large memory cards (64MB is a bit of room for information saves).

What MS has said is that their games have to "work" without the HDD installed. There are a LOT of CD-ROM based games that WORK without a memory card... but to advance/progress you NEED a memory card.

And this is not to say that down the road a company could not make a game designed around the HDD feature to use and put a label on the game. Kind of like how games have required light guns, internet access, power pads, and so forth.

It is an unpleasant situation, but more so because a non-volitile mass media storage device is STILL not standard this gen. This is an area where consoles are under featured compared to PCs... maybe next gen when 16GB flash media is $50 this will change.

Ps- Everyone knows that I love the HDD and think it should be standard. But there is more to running a multi-zillion dollar business than making me, the hard core consumer, happy.

I think MS is missing out on a very profitable market (after game sales)... so IMO making the HDD standard would be nice, but with MS's own projections of only 50% on Live, making it required for Live would have been fine as well... and I assume that is what will naturally happen anyhow. People online will want the additional features a HDD offers.

 

[Sean*O]

Your entire post reads like an upset technogeek f-boy rant.

Seriously, what is up with you?

If that's an F-boy rant, than what should a post like your "X-360 IS HOT" be called?

And what would you call it when everytime someone has a complaint about the new direction of the 360 you are right there downplaying it?

 

[Acert93]

If the HDD isnt fundamental, and wont benefit my game experience, and its just to stream music or some crap, who needs it? Its just an expensive worthless add on. If it does improve my game experience then why wouldn't I want it as a gamer of any stripe?

A HDD is not fundamental... to all games or user experiences.

Yet some games (like Square's MMOG) require such a device. And there *may* become a time where a KILLER APP requires it to play (not just because it makes it marginally better... there IS a difference). So why make it standard for all gamers when so far only a percentage get a benefit from an expensive part?

As for being worthless... $100 for better HD cables, remote, controller upgrade, headset, AND a HDD is a really good deal IMO.

Xbox + 64MB Memory Card = $340

or

Xbox + 20GB HDD = $400

Basically MS is offering a super sized memory card for game use, music, DOWNLOADs, etc... with a ton of extra stuff, for about the price of 2 memory cards.

Anyhow, you are right: After the 1st Xbox why would any gamer feel bad over the HDD?

Is there a game that really benefited (other than load times) from a HDD that a 64MB mem card could not have covered?

Basically MS has made a political move to get more consumers on board which means more games for everyone. It also means MS could be profitable this time... and if no one noticed, if MS lost $4B this time they would NOT be in the next round most likely.

As a developer not having a HDD stinks... but as a developer knowing the MS is aggresively attacking price points, and therefore growing the next gen market faster ($300 machine will get into more homes faster than a $400 only machine) means games will sell better.

It is all about the user base. Striking that balance of competition and cost. Their competition is a no go on the HDD again, and Devs have been their WORST enemy by NOT maximizing it. Therefore it was an expensive "perk"... a glorified memory card, which ironically hurt MS profits!

So the solution was offer it in a really really good bundle deal.

And until Devs (= 3rd party cross platform devs) start using the HDD or are complaining that it is not standard we will be stuck here. Honestly, in many ways the people to blame are the developers. The Xbox had a HDD, and it was under utilized. That either means the HDD is over blown as an advantage OR developers were not (for whatever reason) able to take advantage of it. With dev costs higher AND cross platforming an important part of the market it just seems pretty clear that supporting a super sized memory card was not a benefit to MS or gamers.

We can blame MS for not wanting to lose money and give people free memory cards at their expense.

We can blame Sony for holding back on making a HDD standard.

We can blame developers for not exploiting the benefits of the HDD.

We can blame online penetration because many of the benefits of a HDD are not benefitial without broad band.

We can blame gamers for not purchasing the addon in droves and MAKING developers support it.

etc...

Or we can blame the HDD for not living up to our hopes. Hardware does that you know.

 

[Powderkeg]

Maybe I'm not sure where you're coming from but I'll chalk it up to you mis-reading/inserting some personal bias into the post.

Lookee here: If you are streaming music to your living through your X360 because you have a hard drive in it.... you could skip the x360 and stream (obviously there's a PC around right?) directly from your PC to your stereo. Or since more people have MP3 players and IPODS than will ever have a 360 you could play directly from that.

http://www.dreamlocationsus.com/images/homes/sandhurst-floorplan-web.gif

There is my house. My PC is in the sitting room in the Bedroom 1 on the 2nd floor. My television is in the Family Room on the first floor. Total distance between them is about 150 feet (Not including wraping through walls and the verticle drop)

Care to show me the 200 foot component and Optical Digital Audio cables you plan on using to connect those together?

Not everyone lives in an apartment where your PC is no more than an arms length from your TV.

 

[pharmer100]

I am glad not everybody thought my post was a total rant. It wasn't meant to be - and to be fair while I pointed out a problem(in my view) I also tried to offer a constructive solution as well.

But I am p*ssed off with this whole situation. I only used to come this forum to read up on the fantastic specs of my future purchase. My biggest problem used to be trying to find the money to buy all the launch games.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The only problem with your rant is that MS has not Forced dev;s to do anything as far as I know.

Dev's are free to do as they please. MS has just let them know that they can't count on 100% of user having a HDD and the Developer can take that as they please.

IMO All Points Bulletin will be the MMO-Killer App thats sets the genre on fire and makes everyone and their sister want a HDD for gaming...

 

[blakjedi]

http://www.dreamlocationsus.com/images/homes/sandhurst-floorplan-web.gif

There is my house. My PC is in the sitting room in the Bedroom 1 on the 2nd floor. My television is in the Family Room on the first floor. Total distance between them is about 150 feet (Not including wraping through walls and the verticle drop)

Care to show me the 200 foot component and Optical Digital Audio cables you plan on using to connect those together?

Not everyone lives in an apartment where your PC is no more than an arms length from your TV.

Nice House. Ipods and most MP3 devices are portable. The PC would have to be close enough to the TV to connect to the X360 anyway in order to stream the content.... unless you went wireless (which is what I do.)

My house is four levels, several thousand square feet and I can watch or listen to anything from any computer on any other hard drive in my house and watch it on TV if I have a pc connected or my laptop with an S video out which i doe most other laptops too... *shrug* Its really not a big deal and I learned how to do that from folks who arent geeks. Yeah x360 is a solution but I'm not convinced its the best streaming solution.

Now I'll get a 400 buck kit but not because of the HDD but because of the bundle.... The budle would cost the same without the HDD so theres goes the two sku plan again...

 

[Acert93]

But I am p*ssed off with this whole situation.

Just some advice, this is more of a technical and business oriented discussion board. We discuss the merits of the technology and businesses approaches, etc... We enjoy the games and market positioning and such, but we do try to put aside our personal preferences and biases when we discuss things.

That is not to say we do not show emotion, but we try to approach issues like this "hands off". I think you will notice the posters who take such approaches are well respected and get along well with others, even when they have different preferences.

By all means be ticked off that you are not getting what you want; but after being ticked, take a step back, take a deep breath, and think to yourself, "Should I be mad about a stupid machine?" Of course not!

The next step then is to formulate a cohesive, well thought out post that CALMLY systematically breaks down from a market perspective why this is bad and how it harms gamers and developers and how, in your opinion, including the HDD would be more profitable for MS and give them better market position.

See how that comes across a little different

Your post was more on rant side. There are a lot of forums to rant about your likes and dislikes... here, we try to stay on the technical and business end. We still talk about the games and how we dislike something but we try to do so with substance and not as emotional.

Mind you not everyone with a high post count follows such a rule of thumb and some are just as biased as anyone else, but you will find yourself in good company if you separate your personal feelings from your analysis of the news.

Sincerely,

A Long suffering Nintendo owner contemplating a PS3 or Xbox 360 (in other words someone who has experience with seeing their favorite game franchise company do stupid stuff from a taste perspective)

 

[Acert93]

IMO All Points Bulletin will be the MMO-Killer App thats sets the genre on fire and makes everyone and their sister want a HDD for gaming...

Links?

My problem with most MMOs is, well... they are RPGs A perpetual world like WWII Online BUT with BF2 like stuff and controls... OH YEAH!!

The first company who can make a solid, indepth, and fun FPS world where you are part of a loose team structure (with a lone wolf, hired hand option) that is part of a larger conflict reset every couple months would be AWESOME. Heck, forget resetting... making it a world-by-world conflict ala STARWARS!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The only problem with your rant is that MS has not Forced dev;s to do anything as far as I know.

Dev's are free to do as they please. MS has just let them know that they can't count on 100% of user having a HDD and the Developer can take that as they please.

Are not all games required to run without HDD?

 

[Neeyik]

Just some advice, this is more of a technical and business oriented discussion board. We discuss the merits of the technology and businesses approaches, etc... We enjoy the games and market positioning and such, but we do try to put aside our personal preferences and biases when we discuss things....(etc)

We? Who are the other four people that make up your we?

 

[pharmer100]

My apologises to everybody. I am a big fan of the forum and certainly didn't mean it to come across as a rant. I will def. make any future posts rant free!

I really hope I am wrong about MS requiring every game to run on MC or HDD. I think the whole situation will sort itself out just fine if thats the case, which was the point I was trying to make in my original post.

But guys seriously - all other points aside - don't you think its a strange situation (if its true! ) MS are requiring that developers have to make sure there games run ok for people that probably aren't going to buy them? Not even a little bit?

 

[Confidence-Man]

But guys seriously - all other points aside - don't you think its a strange situation (if its true! ) MS are requiring that developers have to make sure there games run ok for people that probably aren't going to buy them? Not even a little bit?

What do you even mean by "people that probably aren't going to buy them"?

 

[Sis]

...

Let this post be a plea to those who are aggrieved of the Xbox 360's lack of HDD across all versions to please read (and re-read) Acert's posts in this thread. They are eloquent, to the point, and express far better what I've been trying to say this past week.

Very well done.

.Sis