The Rumor That Just Won't Die: MS To Announce HD-DVD for Xbox 360 at CES

External HD-DVD drive. Elegant solution. Is the drive going to go on the side and lengthen the XB360 to longer than most CE goods shelfs are able to accomodate, sit on top in the curve, or be connected by a cable for you to position nicely wherever you want (read cram into any available space!)

I assume an interated HDDVD XB360 will be dforthcoming, though it's been denied before, but it's a weak solution.

Any news on the resolution of HDDVD films? Are they 1080i or 720p? I guess TV series won't be 1080p either, so BluRay looks to have the quality advantage (not that anyone will notice yet)
 
Shifty Geezer said:
External HD-DVD drive. Elegant solution. Is the drive going to go on the side and lengthen the XB360 to longer than most CE goods shelfs are able to accomodate, sit on top in the curve, or be connected by a cable for you to position nicely wherever you want (read cram into any available space!)

I assume an interated HDDVD XB360 will be dforthcoming, though it's been denied before, but it's a weak solution.

Any news on the resolution of HDDVD films? Are they 1080i or 720p? I guess TV series won't be 1080p either, so BluRay looks to have the quality advantage (not that anyone will notice yet)

Elegant? :???: Last thing that comes to my mind when hearing about the external drive is "elegant". Apparently it is to be sandwiched between the HDD and the X360, and that won't look too pretty.
 
london-boy said:
Elegant? :???: Last thing that comes to my mind when hearing about the external drive is "elegant". Apparently it is to be sandwiched between the HDD and the X360, and that won't look too pretty.
I was being sarcastic. Last time I had an external drive was on my A1200. Oh, and I backup to a 2.5" USB HDD every once in a while, but that sits in a draw. It's a lame solution. But this talk should stop here, as there's three threads on XB360 and HDDVD and discussion will get mussed up between them all. Certainly this thread can be dropped now. I guess a mod should pick which of the other two should have this talk.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
I was being sarcastic. Last time I had an external drive was on my A1200. Oh, and I backup to a 2.5" USB HDD every once in a while, but that sits in a draw. It's a lame solution. But this talk should stop here, as there's three threads on XB360 and HDDVD and discussion will get mussed up between them all. Certainly this thread can be dropped now. I guess a mod should pick which of the other two should have this talk.

Oh er yes.

I think Vysez is still bathing in champagne...
 
dukmahsik said:
i dont care if BD or HD DVD wins, i just dont want a format war

Well you've two choices as far as I can see:

Buy Blu-ray (and maybe get a PS3 free ;)), be in the company of tens of millions of others, and wait for Universal to hop the fence

OR

Buy HD-DVD, hope for decent standalone or "add-on" penetration (hah, at least as far as the latter is concerned), and wait for 20th Century Fox, Lions Gate, Sony Picture and Disney to hop the fence

One side is very close to being the standard as is.
 
Titanio said:
Buy HD-DVD, hope for decent standalone or "add-on" penetration (hah, at least as far as the latter is concerned), and wait for 20th Century Fox, Lions Gate, Sony Picture and Disney to hop the fence

One side is very close to being the standard as is.


Now u just KNOW that's not gonna happen, seeing how things are going. :D
 
london-boy said:
Now u just KNOW that's not gonna happen, seeing how things are going. :D

Disney might, you never know :p I think they'd be the most likely out of the bunch, actually.

Although, the reason I say that is because they were getting a little vocal about the need for 50GB discs, and when it was rumoured they may not be out for a while, people started guessing. So HD-DVD wouldn't really help there. But they also prefer the iHD standard on HD-DVD versus Java on Bluray (they co-developed it afterall - although there's a small chance the former may yet be included in the Blu-ray spec).

I think Fox is possibly the least likely. They've been very very gung-ho about Blu-ray and very vocal on Blu-ray vs HD-DVD.
 
Titanio said:
The industry is overwhelming in its support of Blu-ray. In that regard, there is virtually a de facto standard now. I don't think it's Sony's position to be making concessions..
The industry was overwhelming of its support of the HD-DVD format until Sony et. al decided they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, yet again, and launched us into a format way, yet again. I just hope BRD doesn't hide technical idiocy like SACD does, though processing of video is much less important than processing of audio, so I doubt that would ever be a problem.

If everyone is backing BRD (which they aren't), and it was obvious that HD-DVD would be stillborn (which it isn'), thus sparing us from any vestiges of a format war (no luck there it seems), then I'd happily be supportive of BRD. Hell, I really don't care which is the standard, I just want a fucking standard for once. BRD is even the superior technology in this case (opposed to the SACD fiasco), so mo better for all of us if it is quickly adopted as the standard. Sadly, that won't be the case. We'll have two different players and have to guess at which format to buy movies if we are early adopters. If we wait for universal players then it won't be so bad. Unfortunately you won't see universal players soon, nor will you ever see them everywhere you would want.

HD-DVD was the earlier technology, and there were standards committees involved early on in the process pushing topics like the audio format war to the forefront and pleading with companies to get on the same page. Sony screwed that up, so regardless of the situation today (number of backers) I hold them mostly responsible for things being as messy as they are, and will be.
 
Nicked said:
Yeah its all Sony. Never mind the 160 other members of the BDA.
And who was the major player that started this mess, just like the audio format mess? I'm sick of it. At least this time they didn't shoot themselves in the foot technically like they did with SACD, so we'll have two valid formats in the war instead of one good one and one market hyped cluster-fuck (Sony).
 
Bigus Dickus said:
The industry was overwhelming of its support of the HD-DVD format until Sony et. al decided they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, yet again, and launched us into a format way, yet again. I just hope BRD doesn't hide technical idiocy like SACD does, though processing of video is much less important than processing of audio, so I doubt that would ever be a problem.

If everyone is backing BRD (which they aren't), and it was obvious that HD-DVD would be stillborn (which it isn'), thus sparing us from any vestiges of a format war (no luck there it seems), then I'd happily be supportive of BRD. Hell, I really don't care which is the standard, I just want a fucking standard for once. BRD is even the superior technology in this case (opposed to the SACD fiasco), so mo better for all of us if it is quickly adopted as the standard. Sadly, that won't be the case. We'll have two different players and have to guess at which format to buy movies if we are early adopters. If we wait for universal players then it won't be so bad. Unfortunately you won't see universal players soon, nor will you ever see them everywhere you would want.

HD-DVD was the earlier technology, and there were standards committees involved early on in the process pushing topics like the audio format war to the forefront and pleading with companies to get on the same page. Sony screwed that up, so regardless of the situation today (number of backers) I hold them mostly responsible for things being as messy as they are, and will be.

From everything I've heard, SACD is the superior format, so why should people want DVD-A? SACD was created by Sony/Philips as the upgrade to CD... so how is DVD-A the obvious choice?

As far as I know, BR has had quite a substantial amount of support for a few years now. It's just been pushed heavily to their favor in the last year.

You're all over the place in regards to what things you hate (or the reasons, rather), but at least you're consistant in blaming Sony.
 
Bobbler said:
From everything I've heard, SACD is the superior format, so why should people want DVD-A? SACD was created by Sony/Philips as the upgrade to CD... so how is DVD-A the obvious choice?
I'm not sure who you've been listening to, but I can assure you they don't know much about the technical merits of SACD and/or DVD-A.

Without trying to write a dozen page technical paper, SACD has horrible midrange and high frequency SNR for the storage capacity on the disc (above 10kHz, it is arguably worse than decades old CD technology), so Sony shot themselves in the foot right there for a "high quality" audio format. Add to this the fact that the noise shaping used as a crutch for the high frequency noise problems causes intermodulation problems with some otherwise very nice and very expensive amplifiers. But the biggest problem, by far, is that the single bit coding format Sony chose to use (Direct Stream Digital) is essentially unprocessable. Want to do bass management, equalization including the extremely useful low frequency modal room correction, or surround processing of any sort (this short list, btw, encompasses pretty much everything a surround pre/pro or receiver of decent quality has been able to do for the last twenty years), or perhaps a bit more complex filtering like ambiance extraction (Lexicon, Meridian), or maybe effects processing for recording purposes? Well, with SACD in native format you are SOL. The workaround is to first convert SACD into good ol' PCM (what CD has used for decades, and interestingly what DVD-A also uses... wonder why?). Once the data has been converted to PCM, you can do all the nice digital filtering and processing you have been able to do with CD's/DAT's for ages.

But once DSD/SACD is converted to PCM/CDA/DVD-A format, all of the supposed "sonic advantages" (which amounts to low frequency resolution, pretty much, which isn't audible by any stretch) are lost. So what is the point of having DSD in the first place, if to hear it as recorded (that's another story entirely...) you have to use thirty+ year old playback techniques? Gah.

As for the recording side, many SACD recordings are actually mixed and mastered in PCM format, for the processability reasons cited above. After final mastering, conversion to DSD is done. Sony offered a compromise with DSD-"wide", which is essentially PCM using a lower resolution and higher bitrate (i.e., Sony admitting that their format sucks for pretty much everything). About the only things that SACD are good for is raising the frequency ceiling on aliasing noise (accomplished just as well with DVD-A), and masking high frequency content in noise, as does vinyl, which is why to many people the sound is "smoother." If you like that sound, just add noise to DVD-A and there you go.

As for the DVD-A side, it offers better theoretical and achieved SNR in the important frequency bands, a multitude of supported discrete multichannel formats, and selectable compression ratios starting with none. And for the clincher, it uses a data storage format that is easy to record with, and easy to manipulate for playback processing.

You're all over the place in regards to what things you hate (or the reasons, rather), but at least you're consistant in blaming Sony.
I'm consistent in blaming Sony because they are consistent in their actions. VHS came first, then Sony gives us betamax. DVD-A is announced by a conglomerate as a next generation high fidelity audio format, then Sony/Phillips gives us SACD. DVD-HD is discussed by a large multicorporation cooperative, with pleas for everyone to contribute early and avoid another format war... and then Sony gives us BR.

My beef isn't with the technical aspects per se. Betamax was in many ways superior, and while SACD is an offense BR looks to have a non-trivial technical advantage. My problem is that the same company has been behind every format war, and the consumer has been hurt in every case. It can be argued that the competition has brought down the prices more quickly, but there is always competition between brands that suffices to do the job. It can be argued that choice is better than no choice, but the real problem is that content providers are stuck, and either you don't get all media available on both formats, or the release of one or both formats is delayed significantly. Usually it is a mix of the two, with some things never making it to one or the other format and most others coming later than expected.
 
Bigus Dickus said:
My problem is that the same company has been behind every format war, and the consumer has been hurt in every case.

Sony did go along with DVD, and was on the losing end of the royalty payment structure, and this time with Blu-ray, they do have majority support (manufacturing and studios), so it's a HUGE difference to the previous format wars. One could easily argue with Sony's majority support, that the supporters behind HD-DVD are the ones forcing a format war, and not Sony.

It's competition, and any company can provide the format of their choice. It's also the CHOICE of the consumers to buy whatever they want. You can't fault Sony for the choices that consumers made, in the previous format wars. You have to respect their choice, even if it fragments the market. I agree that format wars are not ideal, but in the end, we did end up with standards, and the consumer wins in the end.

Anyway good post, I like all the info you posted, but saying it's always Sony's fault sounds like a unreasonable bias on your part against the company.
 
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Edge said:
Anyway good post, I like all the info you posted, but saying it's always Sony's fault sounds like a unreasonable bias on your part against the company.

Believe it or not, your post that basically paints sony as the white night of consumer choice comes off quite biased as well...
 
scooby_dooby said:
Believe it or not, your post that basically paints sony as the white night of consumer choice comes off quite biased as well...

I don't care about the other formats that Sony has promoted in the past, and only support Blu-ray because it is the superior format. More space equals better technology in my eyes. I agree that makes me bias, but bias for good reason.

I always thought Betamax was superior, but never supported it, by buying one. I don't think Sony was "wrong" for introducing the format.

Other than the PS2 I bought recently, and Sony digital camera recently, I have never bought a Sony product before, and used to hate Sony, cause I was a huge Sega Saturn and Dreamcast fan, but in the end, I've decided to support the best technology. That's why I am also now a huge PS3 fan.
 
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Edge said:
I don't care about the other formats that Sony has promoted in the past, and only support Blu-ray because it is the superior format. More space equals better technology in my eyes. I agree that makes me bias, but bias for good reason.

I always thought Betamax was superior, but never supported it, by buying one. I don't think Sony was "wrong" for introducing the format.

Other than the PS2 I bought recently, and Sony digital camera recently, I have never bought a Sony product before, and used to hate Sony, cause I was a huge Sega Saturn and Dreamcast fan, but in the end, I've decided to support the best technology. That's why I am also now a huge PS3 fan.
"Best" is not a Boolean value.

.Sis
 
Edge said:
One could easily argue with Sony's majority support, that the supporters behind HD-DVD are the ones forcing a format war, and not Sony.
Except that HD-DVD began open discussions among any willingly contributing corporations before there were any whispers of BRD. Look, if BRD quickly wins out and consumers don't suffer because of the competing formats, I'm all for it. More storage space, and as long as the technology develops at the expected pace for writable/rewritable drives then it's teh win for us all. The only reason I point the finger at Sony is because they are the one that consistently go it on their own. Sony reminds me too much of Cartman... "you want everyone to agree to a new format standard?... nah, screw you guys, I'm going home."
 
Bigus Dickus said:
Except that HD-DVD began open discussions among any willingly contributing corporations before there were any whispers of BRD. The only reason I point the finger at Sony is because they are the one that consistently go it on their own. Sony reminds me too much of Cartman... "you want everyone to agree to a new format standard?... nah, screw you guys, I'm going home."

Sony does not consistently go on their own, with DVD proving that, and Sony is not on their own with Blu-ray, with 90 percent CE manufacturing support, and majority studio support.

You make it sound too simple. Toshiba/NEC/Warner could have shared more of the HD-DVD royalty with Sony and the other Blu-ray players to placate them, and they did not. Their loss, as now Sony is sharing the Blu-ray royalty with Phillips, Panasonic, Samsung, among others.

Toshiba/NEC/Warner gambled and loss. Now they are crying foul, saying their process was open and voted on. Sure it was all about keeping the status quo, and keeping the majority of the profits for themselves. The Blu-ray royalty put Sony on equal footing and they won, by winning the biggest CE companies in the world.

Kudos for Sony for outplaying Toshiba/NEC/Warner.
 
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Edge said:
Sony does not consistently go on their own, with DVD proving that, and Sony is not on their own with Blu-ray, with 90 percent CE manufacturing support, and majority studio support.
This support has come relatively late in the game for Sony. I'm not saying they don't have the support now, but you make it sound like 90% of the corporations sponsored BR from the start. That isn't the case at all. Much less so than it is for HD-DVD.

You make it sound too simple. Toshiba/NEC/Warner could have shared more of the HD-DVD royalty with Sony and the other Blu-ray players to placate them, and they did not. Their loss, as now Sony is sharing the Blu-ray royalty with Phillips, Panasonic, Samsung, among others.
Sony wanted more than other partners. So who did the crying?

"screw you guys, I'm going home."

Hopefully Sony wins big time, and quickly, because I don't want another format war that delays content, as is the case with DVD-A/SACD.
 
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