Keyboard & Mouse (KB/MS) on the Xbox 360 (XIM2 / XIM360)

[specwarGP2]

The Illusion of the Level Playing Field

Display resolution, clarity, and latency do have an impact on gaming. Latency in particular can diminish ones ability to compete..

Any advantage gained from any particular display is coincidental. People don't go out looking for a TV and specifically say I want x TV from y manufacturer because it will give me an advantage in Z game. Most people just buy the best TV they can afford.

This KB/mouse hack on the other hand is expressly for gaining an advantage over using a controller. If it's true that this hack cannot give you any advantage over a controller, why not just use a controller? I could buy the argument that someone wanted to use this hack if they didnt have thumbs or something, but I don't think that's the case.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

No, but if you practice\have practice with a keyboard and mouse your certainly going to become better than you would with a gamepad.

Exactly. I started out, like I'm sure the majority of long time members here, as a PC gamer with skills on the KB/M. I wasn't an 'elite' PC gamer, but I was damn good. To the point of people accusing me of cheating, etc.

I'm sure a lot of you have experienced that. Going to the game pad on the PS2 or the Xbox was a huge transformational shift. I suddenly didn't have the fast twitch advantage I had before. Even when I learned the maps, had property strategy, I had no fast twitch skills because the game pad eliminates that and evens the playing field.

The bottom line is that the KB/M setup is far more accurate than the game pad can ever be by the very nature of the means of input.

There are only 2 reasons to promote a KB/M hack. 1) Because you are too lazy to learn a new controller scheme or 2) Because you want an advantage.

That's it. You're either lazy, or a cheater.

Pick one.

 

[homerdog]

There are only 2 reasons to promote a KB/M hack. 1) Because you are too lazy to learn a new controller scheme or 2) Because you want an advantage.

That's it. You're either lazy, or a cheater.

Pick one.

Hmm, promoting the hack wouldn't be seeking a competitive edge. Trying to keep it to yourself would. And you forgot 3) You think gamepads suck for FPSs.

Well thanks for breaking it down for us anyway.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There are only 2 reasons to promote a KB/M hack. 1) Because you are too lazy to learn a new controller scheme or 2) Because you want an advantage.

That's it. You're either lazy, or a cheater.

Assuming these cynical views are the only two options available, I could happily pick number one. It's a game. I don't want to work. If there's an easy way for me to have more fun in my time off, I'll go for it! I don't really see how laziness can apply to recreation when the whole purpose of recreation is 'downtime'.

 

[Second-Thought]

Stepping in after watching this thread for a few months because either no one here bothered to figure out how these actually work or they aren't bothering to use such knowledge to decrease the level of speculation currently eating up half of this thread's posts.

Exactly. I started out, like I'm sure the majority of long time members here, as a PC gamer with skills on the KB/M. I wasn't an 'elite' PC gamer, but I was damn good. To the point of people accusing me of cheating, etc.

I'm sure a lot of you have experienced that. Going to the game pad on the PS2 or the Xbox was a huge transformational shift. I suddenly didn't have the fast twitch advantage I had before. Even when I learned the maps, had property strategy, I had no fast twitch skills because the game pad eliminates that and evens the playing field.

The bottom line is that the KB/M setup is far more accurate than the game pad can ever be by the very nature of the means of input.

There are only 2 reasons to promote a KB/M hack. 1) Because you are too lazy to learn a new controller scheme or 2) Because you want an advantage.

That's it. You're either lazy, or a cheater.

Pick one.

Wrong. You want to know why?

Most PC games that support the use of a mouse use a system of spatial relation when dealing with tracking and translating physical movement in to cursor movement. With this method, all movements are directly relative to the distance moved, and in the case of human operators, never the speed or time in which such movement takes place. The XFPS/Max Shooter 2/XIM/XIM2 works by mapping mouse movement along the analog axes of the controller's left or right thumbstick. The mouse then must be moved at a certain speed for a certain amount of time (this is in direct relation to the tilt and length of time such tilt is held with a thumbstick) to achieve any form of motion.

The ever-accurate method of aiming that you had with a PC is gone when using mouse mapped to analog, and the mouse itself becomes the equivalent of an automatically centering joystick with a mouse-shaped handle on the end that can only be held in any direction for a length of time that varies depending on the angle of the stick. The only remaining characteristic of a mouse is the shape and physical function, everything else is an emulation of the controller.

Unless you want to present solid evidence that the shape of a controller is inherently inferior to that of a mouse before factoring in human operation, the argument is a lost one. You would have to drag the entire advantage debate back to wrist and shoulder versus thumb, and then you would have to properly address the fluctuations in ability between different individuals based on their genetic makeup. Your equal and level playing field never existed, and this does less to upset the balance than the genetic combination you drew from when conceived.

The difference between a human controller and a mouse via the XIM2 is less substantial than that of a mouse via the XIM2 and a mouse with spatial tracking on a PC. The only difference between playing with a controller and playing with a mouse via XIM2 is that the former has you directly manipulating the controller while the latter requires use of a mouse to dictate the controller's behavior.

 

[function]

Most PC games that support the use of a mouse use a system of spatial relation when dealing with tracking and translating physical movement in to cursor movement. With this method, all movements are directly relative to the distance moved, and in the case of human operators, never the speed or time in which such movement takes place.

Right, I've edited this whole lot.

Doesn't sound like you've ever used a PC for gaming? Mouse speed is also a factor. Move less distance, but faster, and the mouse responds more (mouse acceleration - thanks Homerdog). You can turn it off if you want to, but I don't know anyone that ever has.

The range of aiming speeds you can get with a mouse, combined with it's accuracy, is amazing. You can track accurately across individual pixels or flick your wrist and do a 180 (or greater) turn almost instantly (spin and kill, while a pad user on a console is still accelerating into their spin). The relatively tiny distances involved in thumbstick movement (which magnify input errors) and the fact that thumbstick movements are often fast and twitchy anyway (something console game makers try and take into account with input processing) means the subtlety of mouse movement is pretty much impossible to match.

I have no proof of course, but I expect that the greater number of digits and muscles involved with manipulating the mouse, combined with the greater amount of sensory feedback (multiple fingertips in contact with mouse and the surface it's sliding over) couples with the greater magnitude of movement to allow your brain to more accurately process what's going on, and what its doing and plans to do with the device. But this isn't really important atm.

Anyway, the debate in this thread isn't really about whether a mouse connected to the 360 can input numbers that a pad can't (even if the mouse could, it's going through a 360 pad so it's accuracy and response is capped), it's about what actual humans can achieve with different input methods.

Can you rule out that a human could have the ability to perform better in a FPS with a thumbstick than mouse, given equal experience? Nope.

Would mouse and keyboard users tend to have an advantage over pad users? Based on what evidence there is (from PC gaming, people who test XFPS/XIM and even from choices made by anyone that uses input devices on a PC) you'd have to say yes.

Would introducing mouse and keyboard upset the way gamers perform relative to one-another? Almost certainly.

Would most 360 owners who play on Live expect some users to be using input devices that significantly enhance their performance? Almost certainly not.

Is that fair? That's the question, innit. Drugs in sport, no such thing as a level playing field anyway, expensive equipment and training facilities is cheating too, etc, and all that.

 

[homerdog]

Mouse speed is also a factor. Move less distance, but faster, and the mouse responds more. You can turn it off if you want to, but I don't know anyone that ever has.

Mouse acceleration I think is the term you're looking for.

 

[specwarGP2]

Assuming these cynical views are the only two options available, I could happily pick number one. It's a game. I don't want to work. If there's an easy way for me to have more fun in my time off, I'll go for it! I don't really see how laziness can apply to recreation when the whole purpose of recreation is 'downtime'.

You could say that about using an aimbot too.

 

[function]

Mouse acceleration I think is the term you're looking for.

Yes.

Edit: MS call it "Enhance pointer precision". I blame them.

 

[homerdog]

Yeah EPP is sort of a fancy form of mouse acceleration. It's an absolute necessity IMO especially if you have a big monitor.

 

[Second-Thought]

Doesn't sound like you've ever used a PC?

Mouse speed is also a factor. Move less distance, but faster, and the mouse responds more. You can turn it off if you want to, but I don't know anyone that ever has.

The range of aiming speeds you can get with a mouse, combined with it's accuracy, is amazing. You can track accurately across individual pixels or flick your wrist and do a 180 (or greater) turn almost instantly (spin and kill, while a pad user is still accelerating into their spin). The relatively tiny distances involved in thumbstick movement and the fact that thumbstick movements are often fast and twitchy anyway means the subtlety of mouse movement is pretty much impossible to match.

Mouse acceleration is a joke that works only towards destroying the point of using a mouse on a PC and everyone should bother learning how to disable completely through the registry. Guess what I do every time I install Windows? With it off, I have no chance moving fast enough to outperform the 1000Hz and 3200 DPI of my mouse. I know how useful it is, I owned a PC before I did a 360 and still play on it more than I do the console. Enough so that I have seen what bad acceleration in a game can do to mouse control (The Witcher, Dead Space and GTA IV come to mind) and I don't need to be informed of things I do on a daily basis.

If the user happens to be able to use one controller better than another when they both send the same input to the console, then why not ban the user? Such an aspect of multiplayer is not capable of being policed or regulated, and it already runs rampant in any scenario where some players are able to use a controller better than others. There is no advantage to be had that wasn't already present for both forms of control. All that can be said is that no one should be using these adapters because Microsoft doesn't approve, which is actually false for everything but the XIM2, seeing as the no one has officially commented on any of the adapters and we only have LIVE's Terms of Service on which we can base their stance. Only the XIM2 requires modification to a peripheral attached to the console, yet it behaves exactly as the XIM. So while it is technically cheating by not complying to all rules of the ToS, it still doesn't offer any advantage that does not entirely rely on the player. The nature of change to the controller is the same as when anyone places gel tabs over their thumbsticks, or extends their triggers, yet those never receive the same level of recognition because how they function is apparent. The larger amount of discontent over players using a mouse is coming entirely from people who think these adapters are doing something that is not possible, and however much that troubles them is their own fault.

The most that can happen when someone switches from a controller to anything else used through the XIM is that they may no longer be handicapped when turning their intents in to actions that are of an acceptable level of accuracy in-game, and their ability with whatever device used becomes proportionate to that of any person's skill with a controller. The only attribute of the game that is at stake is the other player's inability to properly play the game because of their lacking dexterity. Complaining about that is like complaining that someone no longer has to compete in a foot race with their feet tied together or in a boxing match with one hand tied behind their back. No reasonable individual is going to pity the sudden loss of an advantage only in place due to Microsoft's shortsightedness in expanding options for control based on user preference. Indeed, this entire situation could have been avoided if Microsoft simply allowed such support from the beginning, even if it were terribly implemented.

Then there's the fact that the supposedly unacceptable nature of using a mouse is inapplicable to those with the device that have decided they prefer the quality of their own experience in a game which they purchased over the misinterpretations of the uninformed. Even if users wanted to do anything about it, they couldn't. Microsoft itself is powerless to stop people from using these items, as both of the more capable adapters are able to survive any form of detection short of the complete replacement of the console and its peripherals. I, myself, don't care for whatever losses Windows sales might take if Microsoft supported mouse and keyboard use on their console. I had the chance to use a controller that I was more familiar with, and I took it. I no longer have to fight the controller in addition to other people, and the experience as a whole has improved. It's happening and nothing can stop it. All anyone can hope for is that this brings about officially supported alternatives, because sticking oneself in the mud and saying it is "good enough" was never the best of ideas.

 

[Second-Thought]

Any advantage gained from any particular display is coincidental. People don't go out looking for a TV and specifically say I want x TV from y manufacturer because it will give me an advantage in Z game. Most people just buy the best TV they can afford.

This KB/mouse hack on the other hand is expressly for gaining an advantage over using a controller. If it's true that this hack cannot give you any advantage over a controller, why not just use a controller? I could buy the argument that someone wanted to use this hack if they didnt have thumbs or something, but I don't think that's the case.

I did. There isn't much like wracking your mind with LCD options when balancing unlisted input lag along with everything else, all the while knowing that you'd be better off just buying a new desk and a FW900. So it weighs 48 kilos. It ends up being the best 24" widescreen experience available. The next best thing would have to be an DS-263N, unless you didn't care about the terrible viewing angle of TN panels. People do bother searching for screens that won't handicap them with up to 120ms of input lag. That is enough to make some games unplayable, without factoring in how much it translates in to suicide in any form of online multiplayer after adding connection latency. People who buy the "best" (which is hardly ever the case) monitor they can afford probably don't even know of the existence of input lag, and would probably never get past grouping it together with pixel response time if someone didn't spell it out for them.

As for the XIM being a hack... Haha. Using a mouse to manipulate the controller is as much a "hack" as instructing another person on what buttons to press while playing a game for you.

Original content, by the way. To say it makes playing with a controller interesting would be an understatement in every sense of the word.

 

[function]

Mouse acceleration is a joke that works only towards destroying the point of using a mouse on a PC and everyone should bother learning how to disable completely through the registry.

I really like it.

Guess what I do every time I install Windows? With it off, I have no chance moving fast enough to outperform the 1000Hz and 3200 DPI of my mouse. I know how useful it is, I owned a PC before I did a 360 and still play on it more than I do the console. Enough so that I have seen what bad acceleration in a game can do to mouse control (The Witcher, Dead Space and GTA IV come to mind) and I don't need to be informed of things I do on a daily basis.

So what you meant was that games never use mouse acceleration - if you disable it for the entire PC. At the registry level (I found that just unchecking the box worked btw).

If the user happens to be able to use one controller better than another when they both send the same input to the console, then why not ban the user? Such an aspect of multiplayer is not capable of being policed or regulated, and it already runs rampant in any scenario where some players are able to use a controller better than others. There is no advantage to be had that wasn't already present for both forms of control.

Actually there are potentially different advantages to be had, such as a smaller input to error, greater control over the input device, preprocessing of input not available to pad users etc.

All that can be said is that no one should be using these adapters because Microsoft doesn't approve,

Nope, that's not all that can be said - look around the thread to see some of the other things people are saying and other viewpoints people are weighing up.

The nature of change to the controller is the same as when anyone places gel tabs over their thumbsticks, or extends their triggers, yet those never receive the same level of recognition because how they function is apparent. The larger amount of discontent over players using a mouse is coming entirely from people who think these adapters are doing something that is not possible, and however much that troubles them is their own fault.

Not really, you could make a strong case to say that being able to toggle look sensitivity at the touch of a button, or being able to have different look acceleration rules applied to input, are definable features not available to pad users that can give you real advantages over not having them.

And by your own admission XIM does allow you to do things that it's not possible for you to do otherwise (I'm talking in practical terms regarding performance, not about inputting values not available on a pad) which is the whole point in buying one. It might very well allow you to win out over people who would be better if you were both on a controller, or both using XIM. I can quite see how people who agree to stick with a pad might find this annoying, just as I can see the appeal of not having to use a pad.

The most that can happen when someone switches from a controller to anything else used through the XIM is that they may no longer be handicapped when turning their intents in to actions that are of an acceptable level of accuracy in-game, and their ability with whatever device used becomes proportionate to that of any person's skill with a controller.

Actually all aimbots do is turn your intents into actions and remove handicaps. It's when everyone expects a handicap race, and everyone agrees to a handicap race (as you do when you agree to abide by the ToS), everyone pays for a handicap race, and then someone dumps their handicap, breaks the rules and gains an advantage that people seem to get annoyed.

The only attribute of the game that is at stake is the other player's inability to properly play the game because of their lacking dexterity. Complaining about that is like complaining that someone no longer has to compete in a foot race with their feet tied together or in a boxing match with one hand tied behind their back.

If everyone agrees to a foot tied, one handed boxing race fight and then someone unties their feet and starts running around punching people in the face with both hands it somewhat spoils the spirit of the competition, even if it is more fun for you punching people in the face twice as often as they hop around one-handed.

No reasonable individual is going to pity the sudden loss of an advantage only in place due to Microsoft's shortsightedness in expanding options for control based on user preference. Indeed, this entire situation could have been avoided if Microsoft simply allowed such support from the beginning, even if it were terribly implemented.

Isn't that just basically a wordy way of calling people that disagree with you unreasonable?

Then there's the fact that the supposedly unacceptable nature of using a mouse is inapplicable to those with the device that have decided they prefer the quality of their own experience in a game which they purchased over the misinterpretations of the uninformed. Even if users wanted to do anything about it, they couldn't. Microsoft itself is powerless to stop people from using these items, as both of the more capable adapters are able to survive any form of detection short of the complete replacement of the console and its peripherals. I, myself, don't care for whatever losses Windows sales might take if Microsoft supported mouse and keyboard use on their console. I had the chance to use a controller that I was more familiar with, and I took it. I no longer have to fight the controller in addition to other people, and the experience as a whole has improved. It's happening and nothing can stop it. All anyone can hope for is that this brings about officially supported alternatives, because sticking oneself in the mud and saying it is "good enough" was never the best of ideas.

Basically: you like using it and no-one can stop you so tough luck everyone else. Fair enough, I almost felt the say way after my last session of fumbling around with Halo 3 on the pad.

 

[Acert93]

The bottom line is that the KB/M setup is far more accurate than the game pad can ever be by the very nature of the means of input.

If you read my previous posts detailing how the device works you would know that it functions through a gamepad, and this is an important point so please read carefully, and the Xim can only deliver input to a game that the gamepad can create. If the analogstick is limited to 256 points of sensativity on the X-axis you are confined to the same 256 points AND the same result from those actions. Hence if on level 10 sensativity you can do a 360 in 1 second if you have the stick fully tilted right on the X-axis, the mouse can only replicate this time--not exceed it.

So my two questions would be:

1) Regardless of the hardbound (& softbound) limitations for player input and gameplay output are you saying that the input method is relevant to accuracy?

2) Is any method or device that has the potential to be more "accurate" than a thumbstick cheating?

And the third question is a bonus one: can you respond with illinformed insinuations?

I found it interesting when you said, "Even when I learned the maps, had property strategy, I had no fast twitch skills because the game pad eliminates that and evens the playing field" but that is a landmind statement without you clarifying you exact intentions.

 

[Acert93]

Nope, that's not all that can be said - look around the thread to see some of the other things people are saying and other viewpoints people are weighing up.

By all means link to these enlightening posts because all I have seen (and this is my thread afterall) is a) misconceptions of how the device work and b) a lot of fist shaking and insults by a couple of gamepadders.

Besides the demerits of the Xim (no analog left sick for WASD KB users, slow moving items at max movement, like a turret, map poorly to a mouse, and so on) the worst technical thing that can be said is that like a fighter stick, wheel, taller analog sticks, sticky grips, etc there is an increased mechanical range for the digital input range. The question is that a condemnation of the gamepad or a condemnation of every device out there (from Hori sticks, MS Wheels, Madcat gamepads, Geltabz, etc)?

All the other illusions of a level competitive field aside (still chuckling at the suggestion that video lag does NOT affect performance!) the bottom line from a hard, technical perspective is simply the Xim does not, cannot, offer more input than a gamepad. What it does offer is a different mechanical means of generating input which, in some games can be advantagous to those who, forwhatever reason, prefer a mouse.

Emotions aside, using a MOUSE-movement for the RIGHT ANALOG STICK-movement is no different from using a Wheel with 10 inches of travel (!) for the same result in a racing game. Same input limitations, the only difference is mechanical.

So if a wheel is legit...

 

[Tap In]

I (having played several hours with you) do not think there is anything wrong with you using it in gamepad games whatsoever.

just stop stealing my assists and we'll be all cool.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Joshua, are you denying kb/m has any effect on accuracy and thus give an advantage?

i get that impression from some of your posts, but comparing it to wheels and arcade sticks contradicts that.
Its undeniable that arcade sticks give a competative advantage, but exactly like the XIM they can only pass the same signals as a standard controll pad, they are essentially just a set of switches soldered to a standard controller PCB. Same things go for things like turbo-fire. I dont understand the point you are trying to make.

 

[function]

By all means link to these enlightening posts because all I have seen (and this is my thread afterall) is a) misconceptions of how the device work and b) a lot of fist shaking and insults by a couple of gamepadders.

Well I, for one, have been talking about perceptions of fairness and about agreements and expectations based on the Live ToS and what people know as being available.

This is not simply a case of misconceptions of how the pad works (though there does appear to be some of that), or insults by gamepadders. I understand you might feel that you (and other m+kb users) are being attacked in this thread but over simplifying the reasons people might not like XIM (and other mouse converters) isn't going to help.

I for one don't consider it such a big deal, wish there were better console controllers for FPSs and would be quite tempted to get a XIM360 if it was cheaper and less hassle to use.

Besides the demerits of the Xim (no analog left sick for WASD KB users, slow moving items at max movement, like a turret, map poorly to a mouse, and so on) the worst technical thing that can be said is that like a fighter stick, wheel, taller analog sticks, sticky grips, etc there is an increased mechanical range for the digital input range. The question is that a condemnation of the gamepad or a condemnation of every device out there (from Hori sticks, MS Wheels, Madcat gamepads, Geltabz, etc)?

People know, and have known for years, about steering wheels and fighting sticks. People that are even remotely into the competitive side of gaming know they might come across other players using them, can go out and buy these items themselves if they want (without breaking the Live ToS), and don't need the confidence to solder up chip connections.

The difference between XIM and official controllers - and the only one that offers a legitimate angle for complaint IMO - is that people don't expect to come up against them, can't make a choice whether they would like to based on common knowledge, and might not have easy access to one to "level the score" (anyone can walk into a shop and buy a good joystick or wheel and knows and should expect that anyone else can do the same - the same can most certainly not be said of XIM).

That's the only real issue IMO, but it's an issue that can lead people to feel others are "cheating" and you can't call them wrong for feeling this. It's an issue of perception, just as you thinking it's okay is an issue of perception.

Ideally people should agree beforehand what's allowed, then people can take ownership of the rules and can't complain about the outcome. Even just knowing what the other guy is using is nice sometimes. Xbox Live doesn't give you the choice, but then again for FPSs it doesn't think it needs to.

All the other illusions of a level competitive field aside (still chuckling at the suggestion that video lag does NOT affect performance!) the bottom line from a hard, technical perspective is simply the Xim does not, cannot, offer more input than a gamepad. What it does offer is a different mechanical means of generating input which, in some games can be advantagous to those who, forwhatever reason, prefer a mouse.

As you say there are all kinds of things that create an uneven playing field, but people will always draw the line somewhere (especially for their opponents) in the name of having a competition that can mean something to them.

Emotions aside, using a MOUSE-movement for the RIGHT ANALOG STICK-movement is no different from using a Wheel with 10 inches of travel (!) for the same result in a racing game. Same input limitations, the only difference is mechanical.

So if a wheel is legit...

Well, if MS sold m+kb converters and everyone knew about them and could get them easily I'm sure they'd be considered legit too - though I'm sure there'd still be a fair bit of grumbling about them.

I was considering getting something like this:

http://www.consoleshop.com/product.php?productid=20878

No doubt it's rubbish compared to that XIM thing, but I'd quite like to play Halo ODST on a mouse. I'm not even on Live Gold, I've just got increasingly brassed off with aiming on a thumbpad and don't like the way Bungie process input (I know it won't change this but it would give me more room to compensate).

 

[Tap In]

I was talking to a gamestop employee the other day and he told me why he prefers CoD4 over WaW or Halo 3 for he and his clan.

There are modded "turbo" game pads you can buy or make that allow one trigger pull into to tricking the game into firing 12-15 shots (on certain weapons) in the same time that you or I would fire off 1 or 2.


so there are plenty of cheaters and glitchers out there doing ridiculous things to win and I see this is an alternative, not a cheat. in fact for some people (thumbs that don't work well for one) it is necessary to enjoy the games.

 

[Iron Tiger]

i get that impression from some of your posts, but comparing it to wheels and arcade sticks contradicts that.
Its undeniable that arcade sticks give a competative advantage, but exactly like the XIM they can only pass the same signals as a standard controll pad, they are essentially just a set of switches soldered to a standard controller PCB.

It's certainly something that could be contested. In the arcades, it was only by luck that I could throw an air fireball with Akuma on a forward jump on SF3: Third Strike. I could pretty much do backward jumping air fireballs at will. At home, with a control pad, be it the DualShock 3, Wii Classic Controller, or a Dreamcast pad, I can just as easily do a forward-jumping air fireball as a backward-jumping one.

The range of motion and the speed of my reflexes varies so greatly going from the joystick to the d-pad, that an impossible feat becomes possible.

And for some people that difference may also become apparent going from a mouse to a gamepad, or vice versa. All code being the same (and all players being different), neither input device is uncontestably superior to the other.