Keyboard & Mouse (KB/MS) on the Xbox 360 (XIM2 / XIM360)

[RobertR1]

I don't care either way. The highly skilled/elite players will own you regardless. A kb/mouse won't help me against a top level CoD4 or Halo 3 player. They'll have better reaction, positioning, accuracy and so on.

As people get used to a controller, the benefits of them going to a kb/m setup decrease sharply. If you're new to consoles, having something you're familiar with in a kb/m will means you skip that learning curve. It simply comes down to your desire to learn a new control scheme.

 

[assen]

Racers are meant for steering wheels, you are virtually expected to have one if you're a serious player. I suppose it's the same for arcade sticks and fighting games.

I'm not complaining that it's unfair. You can't have fair online matches, period - if you want fairness, go to a LAN party-type tournament.

What I find disgusting is the audacity of players to override the long, careful thought that went into the game; input-mechanism-wise, playing Gears or Halo with a mouse/kbd reminds me of the idiots who are trying to teach Blizzard how to produce art by desaturating Diablo3 shots and adding grain.

Racing game analogy, if you wish: the mouse/kbd player is not the one with the racing wheel owning the rest of the pack; he's like the kids in the first MotoGP who raced around the track in the backwards direction, spoiling the game for everybody else.

 

[NRP]

It simply comes down to your desire to learn a new control scheme.

I'm with RobertR1 on this one. Anyone can become reasonably proficient with a controller if he is willing to put in the time. The only people I see wanting mouse/KB support in console games are those that either cannot or will not take the time to learn to use a controller.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I find the anger interesting,

As do I. And it's obvious from your extensive rants that the anger is on your side. Angry that you should have to learn an input device that you are unfamiliar with and don't feel rewards you properly for all the time you've put in becoming an expert with the KB/MS.

Your racing wheel comparison is as disingenuous as the rest of your statements. Those games are created and tested with those peripherals in mind.

Both R1's and Assen's response mirror my own and they are in no way opposed. To address R1: I said as much, experts will still be experts. The difference here is learning curve. The bigger picture is Assen's response of people purposefully finding ways to gain an advantage and alter their experience.

You might feel you purchased a game, and a gaming system, and are free to use it as you wish. The larger reality is, however, that everybody who purchased the gaming system have the reasonable expectation that as long as they use the system as it was intended, they will experience the game as was intended by the developers and that which they paid for.

Mod your console all you want, make your KB/MS or Wiimote or whatever do whatever it is you want. But don't attempt to hack the console, or the console's controller devices for the express purpose of gaining an advantage against other's. And that's exactly what this does.

That's the entire purpose of this mod. It is disgusting, it is disgraceful and if this were to be successful, MS should do whatever it takes to find a way to prevent it, just as they should any other hack or cheat.

 

[zed]

I'm with RobertR1 on this one. Anyone can become reasonably proficient with a controller if he is willing to put in the time. The only people I see wanting mouse/KB support in console games are those that either cannot or will not take the time to learn to use a controller.

eh!
whilst true u can reasonably play with a controller it in no way comes close to a mouse/keyboard, its just not *technically* possible for a controller to be as accurate as a mouse.
its like forced to ride a unicycle whilst u have a perfectly good bicycle at home (weak analogy sorry)

Racers are meant for steering wheels, you are virtually expected to have one if you're a serious player.

I suppose thats right, so why is it different with mice/keyboard + FPS's / RPG / strategy etc

 

[AlphaWolf]

I suppose thats right, so why is it different with mice/keyboard + FPS's / RPG / strategy etc

Perhaps because if you get into a real car it has a steering wheel/shifter/gas/brake, where as controlling your own movement and a gun is nothing like a kb and mouse.

 

[assen]

Playing with kbd/mouse and having a better aiming precision is good for FPSes in general.
Playing with kbd/mouse and having a better aiming precision is BAD for e.g. Halo3 a FPS that has been tweaked extensively for gamepad use. (And by extensively, I mean thousands of hours of playtesting on controllers, and black voodoo magic with the controller values, still not well understood by the rest of the developers.)

Asking for "better aiming" in Halo3 is like asking for a higher jump in Braid or Super Mario - it might make you feel badass for a while, but it will totally ruin the game.

Edit: I thought a bit more about it and I think I know where it comes from, outside the primal desire to kick ass. The desire to insert more accuracy in shooters stems comes from the fallacy that games are simulations, and therefore more realism in them == good, less realism (e.g. the autoaim and the Halo controller values voodoo) == bad. Most games are not simulations - the realistic elements in them are there to make us relate more easily to them, but they are a pretend world with its own set of rules; if you deviate from the rules, you ruin the game.

I suppose the reason MS doesn't allow kbd/mouse controls, besides the "not a PC" principle which doesn't allow them to give us a Web browser, is that it's not very easy to make a FPS control well with a gamepad. If the developers have access to mouse/kbd, they would easily get into the mentality that the gamepad is for casual users, that anyone worth their time will play with a kbd/mouse, and wouldn't go through all the trouble to ballance the game around the gamepad, to the detriment of the vast majority of "comfy couch" players. Simply having a certification requirement "thou shalt make your game play well with a controller" wouldn't work, judging from the number of games with crappy resolution, antialiasing or unreadable text on SDTVs.

 

[Acert93]

Funny seeing rants that ignore the stated desire and premise of users and superimpose some agenda on people to satisify their own feelings about a product. Nice to see the Wii/PS3/360 platform stubborness can spread the love

As for the device: I have tested it in one game and it works nearly flawlessly. The results were not pretty though: it didn't make me a gaming god by any means. On simpler maps where the guns were just right for the desired range of combat I did well, on complex maps where knowing where weapons were and when/how to use them I lagged behind. Good gamepad players had no problem in 1-on-1 fire fights. I played with a fair number of people last night (even one B3Der) and no one felt I was cheating, especially when they actually saw the results.

In a nutshell for those who desire mouse input--within the confines of the games limitations--the Xim2 works well in at least on game. So if you don't have the time to relearn a gamepad, have a physical issue (e.g. I have a friend who is missing a finger), or just prefer a mouse to thumbsticks this is a good alternative. After surveying a good dozen users of the product, and looking at their gaming profiles, it definately won't make you unstoppable. If you are good you are good, and good gamepad players are pretty darn good. The Xim2 allows people to play the way they want to play with their toys.

I wish I had recorded my first game with it. A friend of fairly high rank wanted to show me the ropes and he had alot of fun toying with me and making fun of my purchase. End result: 25-11. But I had fun because I wasn't fighting sore thumbs and could do what I wanted to do--I just am not very good at the game

I will be happy to answer any questions and I guess I will go test some more games for my product review.

 

[Tap In]

...

As for the device: I have tested it in one game and it works nearly flawlessly. The results were not pretty though: it didn't make me a gaming god by any means. On simpler maps where the guns were just right for the desired range of combat I did well, on complex maps where knowing where weapons were and when/how to use them I lagged behind. Good gamepad players had no problem in 1-on-1 fire fights. I played with a fair number of people last night (even one B3Der) and no one felt I was cheating, especially when they actually saw the results.
..

Halo 3?

 

[Acert93]

Halo 3?

I guess it is the only game that fits that description eh?

I will have to try some BFBC withyou later

 

[Tap In]

I guess it is the only game that fits that description eh?

I will have to try some BFBC withyou later

dang, i need to get a mic solution for my headphones... BC is best played with communication (if you have good team mates) and I have been playing without communication for so long- just trying to anticipate my squad mates needs. plus I concentrate better without hearing random people bitching and moaning in my ear every time they get killed or the person they were shooting at didn't die as they had hoped.

 

[Acert93]

LAME. Get a mic already--6 months is like forever!

 

[homerdog]

Call of Duty 5: World at War Beta and XIM2:

Oh my goodness it's like he's fighting the deaf dumb and blind.

Relative to the competition I'd say I'm more skilled with a gamepad than I am with a M/KB, but I have no reservations in saying homerdog with a M/KB would absolutely thrash homerdog with a gamepad. Really it would be bad...

 

[BadTB25]

I played with Joshua last night and I can't say that it gives him a significant advantage. Not that he wasn't good...he is, it just wasn't anything unusual from the players you see on line.

I'd have to agree to his point as well. As long as this set up doesn't allow you to anything that you can't do with a controller, then I see no issues with it.

Shall we have the games distinguish between who is using a fighting stick and controller, driving wheel and controller, on an HDTV vs an SD one. The consoles are capable of determining these facts, but it doesn't make a distinction between them when playing on line with competition.

I'm cool with it as long as there isn't a significant competitive advantage. From what he wrote, there doesn't appear to be one.

 

[Iron Tiger]

For some, KB&M support may simply level the playing field. FPS-gamers who were bred on PC may not easily adapt to console controllers. My tactics may be the same between platforms, but I don't have the same kind of dexterity in my thumbs that I have in my wrists. I can handily beat friend in PC FPS games, but going to the console version of the same, game his console conditioning makes him a much better player than me. To me it's like giving somebody a choice between an arcade stick and a gamepad for fighting games. The guy with the arcade stick isn't guaranteed victory over the guy with the gamepad (unless it's an Xbox 360 pad and he's up against Zangief).

I'm interested in the XIM2 for the Wiimote possibilities. I'd love to try out GlovePIE scripting for it with games like Jet Set Radio Future and Panzer Dragoon Orta. I've found on PC, that even mediocre games can become somewhat enjoyable with Wiimote controls, and that would likely prove true on the X360 as well.

 

[homerdog]

I played with Joshua last night and I can't say that it gives him a significant advantage. Not that he wasn't good...he is, it just wasn't anything unusual from the players you see on line.

I'd have to agree to his point as well. As long as this set up doesn't allow you to anything that you can't do with a controller, then I see no issues with it.

Halo 3, correct? I suspect that game is an exception since it has by far the best gamepad controls of any console FPS I've ever played. Bungie knows something other devs don't. In other games e.g. CoD a M/KB should prove much more beneficial. Just watch that video Josh posted. The gamepad kiddies are dead before they know they're getting hit. Furthermore, if I plugged my 360 pad into my PC and went online in CoD it would be a laugh riot. The "M/KB doesn't give an advantage" argument doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing?

BTW I'm all for M/KB support on consoles. Then I might actually use my 360 every now and then.

 

[BadTB25]

Yup.

I wouldn't know about the other games. I can't use a M/kB save my life.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Its cheating because it has the potential to give an unfair advantage, without competition knowing about it. Sure just because you use a keyboard and mouse doesnt mean you are suddenly become great, of corse you wont.

An athlete may use performance enhancing drugs and reach the olympics, where he never wins a race. Is it not still cheating even if it hasnt made him better than the guys that are not on drugs?

That said, cheating doesnt bother me realy anyhow. Its how i play myself that gives the satisfaction, there are always going to be people better than you with or without aid so doesent even matter.

I say KB/M use should be a supported configuration, and the ability to filter players on control type should be there. I say let athletes take drugs an let them have there own version of the olympics, that would be interesting


EDIT:
As for the whole fightstick/wheel is the same argument, it is not. Those devices are actively supported in those games in which they are used. If a device is supported everyone who plays that game knows what they are likely to be up against and that it is allowed and even encouraged within the games rules. Unreal tournament 3 supported KB/M and there was no issue, with games in which it requires a hack to enable it is an issue.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

The reverse is true of many PC-raised gamers. FASA (r.i.p.) had noted that in their game it wasn't clear cut which was better as KB/MS were good at sniping and gamepads better up close.

Thats because Shadowrun had autoaiming etc in place for gamepad user in order to make up for the fact that PC users would PWN them with KB\MS. playing field was not level between the two.

Gamepads had an advantage at close ranges only because of auto aim. Without this, gamepad users would get raped both when sniping and when in CQC. A gamepad simply does not offer the same kind of precision you can get with a mouse when it comes to aiming, and ultimately i dont think anyone can intelligently argue the case that gamepads have any advantage over KB+Mouse in FPS games.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Its cheating because it has the potential to give an unfair advantage, without competition knowing about it. Sure just because you use a keyboard and mouse doesnt mean you are suddenly become great, of corse you wont.

No, but if you practice\have practice with a keyboard and mouse your certainly going to become better than you would with a gamepad.