The old and unwieldy GTA4 thread*

[Todd33]

One could also state that 360 has Halo 3 (Plus Mass Effect and Bioshock) to make up for this, while PS3 does not have a title that will be such a big seller.

Well it may not have a Halo 3 franchise, but how many Halo fans don't already have a 360? Not to mention many console gamers hate FPS/PC type games. Now look at the 100 million PS2 owners who played Naughty Dog or Insomniac games, how many have a Ps3?

But, if PS3 cant get down to 399 or 499 by the time GTA releases, isn't that totally moot? And how is even 399 a mass market price point for PS3 if it's not for 360? The logic has a lot of holes in it..

You are thinking of gamers as one large pool to sell to, but there are many Playstation loyalist who have yet to go next gen, so a $400 Ps3 is more appealing to them than a $300 360.

Also, it's rumored MS will be doing another price cut in November regardless in conjunction with 65nm. Has nothing to do with no GTAIV.

You think the PS3 is going to get cut to $499 (it's current price) yet the 360 is going to get a rumored second cut and it hasn't had the rumored first one yet? As you said "The logic has a lot of holes in it"...

I think the GTA4 delay hurts both almost equally, but your spin is palpable.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Mass Effect, Assasins Creed, Halo 3, Heavenly Sword..are examples of triple AAA titles shipping on time.

I think a few of those have already been "rescheduled", and tell me about them after they hit their shipping dates. (No offense Deano. )

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Well it may not have a Halo 3 franchise, but how many Halo fans don't already have a 360? Not to mention many console gamers hate FPS/PC type games.
Now look at the 100 million PS2 owners who played Naughty Dog or Insomniac games, how many have a Ps3?

Dont try to play this card.

Really? That many hate FPS games?

If FPS games where so hated, why does 4 generic shooters from EA, MoH Frontline and MoH Rising sun, James Bond Nightfire and James Bond: Agent Under Fire outsell ALL NAUGHTY DOG AND INSOMNIAC PS2 games?

Man, PS2 owners must REALLY hate FPS games.

Do you really think the hype from Uncharted, a new IP, from a company which last 3 titles didn't manage to outsell a generic EA james bond port on the PS2, is going to make a massive surge of people running to buy PS3's??

Besides, does the X360 only offer a FPS game this fall? They offer a vast variety of different games, from big developers like Bizarre Creations (PGR4), Bioware (Mass Effect) and Irrational games (bioshock), all developers which are atleast as proven as the ones you mention, in terms of sales(relative to platform) and recognition.

You see todd, your forgetting one thing. The ORIGINIAL PS2 buyers, may have been against FPS and just about J-RPGS and stuff like that. However, once that PS2 started going down in price, and casuals started buying it, those views on FPS games got abolished. The PS2 userbase behavior towards what games they buy would pretty much be in perfect correlation with the average casual.

Now look at the 100 million PS2 owners who played Naughty Dog or Insomniac games, how many have a Ps3?

Actually, not one title from either developer sold more than 4-5 million. Since all of the titles are sequels which have all shown declines in terms of sales, the actual amount of people who bought Naughty dog or Insomniac games last gen is at best 15million.

 

[Tap In]

That's messed up. Either they both ship at the same or they don't ship at all?

Here come the conspiracy theories.

Tommy McClain

well I assumed the same thing in my post above... I really thought this was common knowledge.

the way this whole thing went down and as big a franchise that this is, I assumed that neither would be allowed to ship before the other i.e. my post stating that one system was holding it up.

 

[scooby_dooby]

It's definately a bad thing for MS, as PS3 will now be at a lower price when GTA hits, allowing more GTA fans to buy the PS3 like they would probably prefer.

GTA was particularly important for the 360 in Europe this holiday IMO.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Does it matter? I mean the Wii is gonna just blow them both so out of the water this holiday season. :|



*me runs away!!!

 

[slider]

Look at open world games this generation

Oblivion, a year later on PS3, still can't fit all DLC in ram / Fine on 360
Crackdown / Fine on 360
Mercenaries 2: PS3 lead sku, only video of it being played was at GDC on the 360 /
Saint's Row, quietly swept under the rug by THQ with nary a PS3 shot. / Fine on 360
Burnout Paradise, PS3 lead sku, delayed twice already into 2008.
Two Worlds, Only version shown playable is 360, no PS3 version footage available

I believe this.

I was referring, in the main, to the contract issue.

Most people seem to know about the relative coding headaches the PS3 presents. But as for analysis? It doesn't strike me as analysis... more like theorising based on very little.

 

[Zassk]

It's definately a bad thing for MS, as PS3 will now be at a lower price when GTA hits, allowing more GTA fans to buy the PS3 like they would probably prefer.

GTA was particularly important for the 360 in Europe this holiday IMO.

You've got to think that both consoles will be cheaper when GTA finally hits.

As someone said earlier in this thread... what is Sony going to advertise this holiday now? What remaining PS3 title has mainstream brand recognition? This may be disastrous for PS3 holiday sales.

 

[Todd33]

Sorry to upset you Ostepop, but your logic could be applied equally well to most 360 games. Yes crappy EA games sell, but I doubt they push early adopters to spend $400.

Did System Shock 2 sell better than James Bond? Why should Bioshock help sell 360s then? It's a dumb argument.

There are millions of Playstation fans waiting to buy a PS3, the 17% reduction in price had a huge impact on sales, why is that? Were there any big games released? Yet somehow the release of the next gen Ratchet and Clank (a franchise that has sold 13 million on the PS2) won't help sales? The PS3 doesn't need a single game to push sales, it just need to be more affordable and have content. This holiday has plenty of content without GTA4. You and Rangers can spin all you like by ignoring potential PS3 hits while playing up 360 ones, but it's just silly. Both systems will have plenty of good games this year - enough to sell to their target audiences.

 

[Tap In]

tough to say who this is "good or bad" for... it is what it is.

I think it can be good for MS in that there are plenty of titles that will carry it through the holidays (and this theory that all of the Halo3 buyers already own 360s must end now as it is incredibly ridiculous )

I think it's better for the other publishers/devs who had games scheduled for this holiday/fall and I think that with both systems more than likely doing some price adjustments early next year (staying within the same range of each other as right now, no doubt) i think if anything, GTA will help drive systems in an otherwise quiet spring 08.

For Sony, they may or may not have anything AS BIG as GTAIV would have been for them this fall/winter but they are better served by this title IMO waiting until spring and a price drop (for GTA IV to move systems).

 

[Todd33]

You've got to think that both consoles will be cheaper when GTA finally hits.

As someone said earlier in this thread... what is Sony going to advertise this holiday now? What remaining PS3 title has mainstream brand recognition? This may be disastrous for PS3 holiday sales.

What did the 360 have in 2006? Gears of War, that was new IP, as is Heavenly Sword, Drake's, Haze and Lair. Of course there is UT3 if you want a known name. Adding "Part N" to a movie or game does not make it good, it just spurs first week sales, word of mouth takes over from there.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

What did the 360 have in 2006? Gears of War, that was new IP, as is Heavenly Sword, Drake's, Haze and Lair. Of course there is UT3 if you want a known name. Adding "Part N" to a movie or game does not make it good, it just spurs first week sales, word of mouth takes over from there.

The X360 didn't need anything last holiday, it just needed to have a ton of good games vs the 1 and a half good game on the PS3.

And i know your not possibly comparing the amount of hype and advertising Gears got vs any of those titles.

Oh and btw, your in no position to talk about my posting history, im not the guy had a red square below my name when rep was still in.

 

[assen]

Sheesh. Has anyone else seen this?

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27326
... Pachter Pachter Pachter ...
It didn't strike me as very likely but I'm happy to hear other views.

Not very likely? You haven't heard about a game that looks worse on the PS3 (Spider-Man 3) or that is half the framerate on the PS3 (all the football games this year) or is six months late on the PS3 (Rainbow Six: Vegas)? Why does it seem so unlikely that Rockstar are having the same problems with the PS3 that dozens of other developers are having?

And the "non-exclusivity" deal with Sony seems reasonable: Sony may have shied away from paying X mln. to keep GTA4 exclusive, but maybe they paid Y mln. to keep GTA4 from becoming Xbox 360 exclusive (where Y << X).

Now look at the 100 million PS2 owners who played Naughty Dog or Insomniac games

The vast majority of the 100 million PS2 owners
a) bought their PS2 at $200 or below
b) are not "loyalists", but casual gamers with very little brand attraction
c) haven't touched a Naughty Dog or an Insomniac game, as evidenced by the sales numbers of these games.

...the next gen Ratchet and Clank (a franchise that has sold 13 million on the PS2)

It's silly to speak of the "franchise that has sold 13 million" - it's much more meaningful to speak about the highest-grossing game of the franchise. By that measure, the "GTA franchise" has sold maybe 100 million, and the "Mario franchise" maybe 200 or 300.

Personally, I can't decide who benefits most from the GTA4 delay. (Well, outside of Nintendo, who will snatch up an additional couple of million PS2-owning casual-gaming cheapskates this Christmas.)

Pluses for Sony:
- probably the PS3 version will get in a better shape and be more comparable to the 360 version after six more months of tweaking
- after proportional pricecuts, the absolute difference in the systems' prices will be less in the spring

Minuses for Sony:
- it will steal away from MGS4's thunder, which is much more of a "their" franchise, after the repeated oaths of fealty by Kojima
- another slap in the face IF the Pachter story turns out to be true (I'm inclined to believe it for now)
- less PS3s sold this Xmas period

Pluses for Microsoft:
- more breathing room for the first- and second-party titles this fall, which are more profitable
- a good chance to mount a "we have the better GTA4" campaign against the MGS4 hype

Minuses for Microsoft:
- less 360s sold this Xmas period
- the marketing strategy for the DLC will have to be re-thought - if they were scheduled to hit e.g. 3 and 9 months after the release, and they are delayed proportionately, the second one will fall in the Xmas 2008 period... wait, that would be a plus?

Pluses for third-party publishers:
- everyone with a shooter/violence game scheduled for Xmas 2007 gets to sell more

Minuses for third-party publishers:
- everyone with a shooter/violence game scheduled for H1 2008 gets to sell less
- the uptake of next-gen consoles is slowed down a bit, since less PS3 and 360s get sold this Xmas period.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

The difference is that people like Todd seem to believe that casual gamers are actually 'Playstation fans'.

Which I find humorous. Because I don't know any casual gamer that cares about who makes their console.

Sure, the PS3 will get some bonus points from some people because they are familiar with it and the controls from having a PS2. But most people just care about the price, and that it has the games that they want to play.

Todd, do you believe all those 'Playstation fans' would still buy a playstation if GTAIV wasn't on the system at all?

I personally know a number of people (including myself) that bought a PS2 for the sole purpose of playing GTAIII. I didn't want to wait to play it on the Xbox. I bought a PS2 just to play it.

Had that game been released on the Xbox at the same time, I wouldn't have purchased a PS2.

Had I not had an Xbox already and the game was released for both the Xbox and PS2 at the same time, but the Xbox was significantly cheaper, I would have purchased an Xbox to play GTAIII.

This isn't complicated, and I really can't believe how many people let their emotions cloud an issue.

The majority of people are fans of GAMES. Not fans of GAMING SYSTEMS.

There were going to be X number of people who wanted to play GTAIV this holiday season who can't afford a PS3, but can afford a 360.

With GTAIV being delayed, those people won't buy a 360 this holiday. And by the time GTAIV does get released, the PS3 might be affordable to them. Or it might have its library strengthened by the release of other games that are attractive.

I guess I don't see the downside for Sony in this delay. I don't think GTAIV would sell a significant amount of PS3s this holiday season anyway, the system itself is still too expensive and people (like Todd) who want a PS3 because they want a PS3 (rather than wanting to play a specific game), are still going to buy one anyway.

 

[slider]

Not very likely? You haven't heard about a game that looks worse on the PS3 (Spider-Man 3) or that is half the framerate on the PS3 (all the football games this year) or is six months late on the PS3 (Rainbow Six: Vegas)? Why does it seem so unlikely that Rockstar are having the same problems with the PS3 that dozens of other developers are having?

And the "non-exclusivity" deal with Sony seems reasonable: Sony may have shied away from paying X mln. to keep GTA4 exclusive, but maybe they paid Y mln. to keep GTA4 from becoming Xbox 360 exclusive (where Y << X).

As I said in a previous post I was talking about the release exclusivity deal. I wasn't making a case for the PS3 being easy to code for. Or as easy as the 360. Or that anyone or any report that suggests it is a blinkered ******. God forbid - I try to avoid posts that'll provoke a strong response.

I don't see why Rockstar would agree to not release on the 360 if they're having problems with coding for Sony's machine. Of course the first official announcements were about a simultaneous release. Who knows the complications of contract negotiations. But a deal where Rockstar is talking with MS & Sony to strike a simultaneous release is a bit... I dunno, odd? For a start what would MS or Sony have to really gain from it? MS lobby for exclusivity and Sony counter offer with...
Sony: "No, don't do it!"
R*: "Why, what are you offering?"
Sony: "Er, nothing as strong but can we at least have a simultaneous release?"
I dunno - I'm not explaining it very well. Like I said it strikes me as odd, and that's the best way I can explain it, and you've probably got a better idea on these sort of contracts than I have.

Finally, I would've thought for such a powerful franchise Rockstar would have some room for maneuver with anyone that wants to play hardball.

 

[22psi]

Just imagine if one version came out this year and the other next year.

 

[Arwin]

So, I'm going to repeat myself, because I think it's necessary. From the official press-release:

The top engineers from Sony and Microsoft are working closely with the team in Edinburgh right now, helping us to fully leverage the power of both platforms.

 

[Mrakor]

So, I'm going to repeat myself, because I think it's necessary. From the official press-release:

This is doesn't mean, that MS and sony working with each other, this is about and sony and MS working with the team in Edinburgh.

If it's what you're implying.

 

[Arwin]

This is doesn't mean, that MS and sony working with each other, this is about and sony and MS working with the team in Edinburgh.

If it's what you're implying.

Obviously not. I'm implying that Rockstar needs help with both platforms, and that it isn't the one or the other that is delaying the game's release, as a lot of people are suggesting (including analysts who should know better).

 

[scooby_dooby]

There was little doubt in my mind that the PS3 version was going to slip.

I didn't expect them both to be delayed though, as Rockstar has been showing quite a few video's and demo's on the 360.

We'll never really know why it was delayed, but this theory about a contract with Sony doesn't seem too far fetched.

Obviously not. I'm implying that Rockstar needs help with both platforms, and that it isn't the one or the other that is delaying the game's release, as a lot of people are suggesting (including analysts who should know better).

And you're basing this on the official PR? Sorry, but means next to nothing to me. What do you expect them to say? "PS3 is holding us back??"