The official EURO 08 thread

[Gerry]

That's what they're saying, to cover the mistake

The laws state that the only case where Panucci should be considered as an active defender is if he deliberately stepped off the field to play offside - in which case it's an automatic yellow card too

It's either a horrendous mistake by the officials, or... a horrendous mistake by the officials

Sorry, you're wrong.

11.11 DEFENDER LEGALLY OFF THE FIELD OF PLAY
A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must
still be considered in determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of
judging which attackers are in an offside position. Such a defender is considered to be on the
touch line or goal line closest to his off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the
referee's permission (and who thus requires the referee's permission to return) is not included in
determining offside position.

This states quite categorically that the defender plays him onside. He would only be considered not to be active if he'd been given permission to leave the field of play.

 

[catisfit]

This states quite categorically that the defender plays him onside. He would only be considered not to be active if he'd been given permission to leave the field of play.

That quote has been doing the rounds on loads of football discussions this morning, it's a shame that it's not complete.

That quote relates to defenders deliberately leaving the pitch in order to play offside. In the case where a player's momentum carries them off the pitch, if they choose not to return (or in this case are injured), they are not considered to be part of the continuing play. This is true for both strikers and defenders.

 

[chavvdarrr]

That quote relates to defenders deliberately leaving the pitch in order to play offside. In the case where a player's momentum carries them off the pitch, if they choose not to return (or in this case are injured), they are not considered to be part of the continuing play. This is true for both strikers and defenders.

Then give us link to full quote

 

[Gerry]

That quote has been doing the rounds on loads of football discussions this morning, it's a shame that it's not complete.

That quote relates to defenders deliberately leaving the pitch in order to play offside. In the case where a player's momentum carries them off the pitch, if they choose not to return (or in this case are injured), they are not considered to be part of the continuing play. This is true for both strikers and defenders.

That quote is taken directly from the FIFA rules of the game - there's nothing incomplete about it.

Since the official line is that the decision is correct, I think you're going to have to provide a little more evidence than that if you disagree with it. As suggested below, a link to the "full quote" would be a start.

EDIT: Actually the quote is from "Advice To Referees on the Laws of the Game", a book published by United States Soccer Federation - which automatically casts some doubt of it!

 

[catisfit]

That quote is taken directly from the FIFA rules of the game - there's nothing incomplete about it.

The Laws of the Game are just the highest level of a multi-tiered set of documents describing every nuance of the game of football.

For tricky situations there are graphical representations to clarify them. In this case what happened was clearly an exact replica of the following scenario (a) - specific guidelines to assistant referees for judging the offside rule:

Where should the Assistant Referee place himself to judge for offside in the following instances?

(a) An defender's momentum, takes him out over the goal line where he remains injured off the field of play.

Answer (a): A player leaving the field during play because of his momentum, is not deemed to have left without the Referee's permission and can therefore re-enter without the Referee's permission. However, this player is clearly injured, awaiting treatment off the field of play. He should be deemed to have left the field of play and will require the Referee's permission to re-enter after he has received treatment. As the injured player is off the field of play, he should not be considered in any offside decisions. The Assistant Referee should move up field in line with the next second last defender remaining on the field of play. The injured player should be discounted when deciding offside in this scenario.

On occasions like this, the Referee will need to decide when a player is genuinely injured (or not!). There will probably be no time for the Referee to actually give permission for this player to be treated - because he will be concentrating closely on the ensuing match action. The Referee will need to decide if the player is genuinely injured, or if he is feigning an injury in the hope that an offside will be given against an opponent. It is a very difficult decision for the Referee to make whilst primarily concentrating on the match action.

(b) An defender's momentum, takes him out over the goal line but he is not injured.

Answer (b): A player leaving the field of play because of his momentum during play, is not deemed to have left without the Referee's permission and can therefore re-enter without the Referee's permission. In this instance, although the defender is off the field of play, (and until he returns to the field of play), he should be deemed to be standing on the goal-line (in the field of play) when considering offside. The Assistant Referee should stand in line with the last opponent on the field of play (which in this case will probably be the defending goalkeeper). When deciding offside in this scenario, the two last defending opponents are the defender who has travelled off the field of play, and the defending player who is nearest to the goal line on the field of play (which in all probability will be the goalkeeper).

If an uninjured defender purposefully remains off the field in an attempt to place an attacker in an offside position, then that defender should also be deemed to be standing on the goal-line (on the field of play) when considering offside. Trickery of this nature circumvents the spirit of the offside Law.

Unless you claim that Panucci was deliberately feigning injury, and that the referee was able to deduce that clearly in the seconds between him going off the field and the goal being scored, this is clearly scenario (a) and therefore the goal should not have stood.

 

[Gerry]

That quote above is taken from the corshamref website.

http://www.corshamref.org.uk/offside.htm

It's simply one man's interpretation of the rules, they're not specific guidelines presented to referee's and their assistants.

And even if you take that opinion as gospel, it certainly isn't "clearly" situation a) at all. The referee has to make a decision whether Panucci is genuinely injured or whether it's just histrionics (and let's face facts, in Italian football the latter is more likely).

Of course to complicate matters here's a further quote from the FIFA Laws of the Game.

If a defending player steps behind his own goal line in order to place
an opponent in an offside position, the referee shall allow play to
continue and caution the defender for deliberately leaving the field
of play without the referee’s permission when the ball is next out of
play.

Which of course isn't the situation at all, however it DOES imply that a defender deliberately stepping off the field of play would place the attacker offside. Which beggars the question, if a defender deliberately stepping off the field of play places an attacker offside, why shouldn't a defender accidentally doing the same thing place him offside as well?

 

[Miksu]

IMHO it was the right decision to rule the situation as a goal. It was Italy's goalkeeper who forced his own teammate out of the field.

Some hopefully good matches on tv tonight. It's always interesting to see if Spain can get their stars to work together. And I have 10€ in for Russian for winning the EURO cup and I don't want to be let down

Go Sweden!

 

[catisfit]

That quote above is taken from the corshamref website.

Julian Carosi is a FA Instructor with years of experience of Law interpretation.

And even if you take that opinion as gospel, it certainly isn't "clearly" situation a) at all. The referee has to make a decision whether Panucci is genuinely injured or whether it's just histrionics (and let's face facts, in Italian football the latter is more likely).

The linesman should flag to signal offside, the referee can then choose to overrule if in his opinion the player was feigning injury or not. There was not enough time between the injury occurring and the goal being scored for the referee to signal to the linesman that he believed the injury was a fake. Furthermore, the nationality of the player concerned is irrelevant.

IMHO it was the right decision to rule the situation as a goal. It was Italy's goalkeeper who forced his own teammate out of the field.

Even if that was the case it's irrelevant. He went out of play due to momentum rather than deliberate choice. Even so an injury has the same weight in the rules regardless of how it is obtained.

 

[Mariner]

But Panucci wasn't injured was he? He continued to play for the rest of the game without requiring treatment.

Unfortunate for the Italians but then Buffon shouldn't have punched the ball back into play. It wouldn't be a major tournament if the Italians didn't have the opportunity to blame the referee or some kind of conspiracy for a defeat!

I thought the Italians attacked pretty well in the second half which just showed how poor they were in the first. The Dutch look good going forward but I'm not convinced by their defence.

Overall, though, a very entertaining game especially in comparison to the dreadful France/Romania bore-athon.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I didn't see a problem with the goal. The Goalie bumped the defender out, if the attacking player had then I would've said offside or foul.

US

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Italians and attacking in the same sentence? Italians always play something like 1 8 1 1, kick the ball forward and hope you score. Only defend for the rest. We played the first real good game in years. Lets hope they keep going like this. And yes are defense sucks. Especially matthijsen which is just useless.

 

[Bludd]

Greece is horrible to watch. I hope they won't make it out of the group play stage. Thank the heavens for Sweden scoring twice.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

yay ..

Spain 4 - 1 Russia

Sweden 2 - 0 Greece

Woohoo!!!

US

 

[catisfit]

Italians always play something like 1 8 1 1

No wonder they're so successful, playing 11 outfield players!! If only England had tried that instead of 4-4-2

 

[Platon]

As a Greek/Swede last nights game was a bit schizophrenic for me, but since I live in Sweden right now my support went to Greece, yeah I know I do things in reverse, it keeps the tension up. But in the end i think it was fair result. Greece didn't even play "bad" football well and although the second Swedish goal might go down as the ugliest goal this tournament or even in the history I think it was indicative of the game the Swedes tried more and wanted more it seems.

Spain was just scary. Finally, they might do well, actually very well, at the tournament it self as well and not collapse as so many times before. If they get the machinery working, which seems to be the case I wonder if there is anything stopping them...

 

[Mariner]

Once again, Spain's defence didn't look too good to me. A very pedestrian Russian team could easily have scored another couple of goals against them.

From what I've seen, the top teams aren't necessarily as strong defensively as you might expect. Hopefully this will mean some good, open games when they inevitably meet in later rounds.

I'd say there isn't really a clear favourite to win at the moment. Any one of three or four teams look as though they could win it but I don't expect a surprise victor as in 2004.

 

[DJ12]

There is a clear favourite, and it's Holland. How could they not be having thrashed the current World Champions.

They won't win as they like Spain always fold under pressure.

We are heading for a France - Portugal final.

 

[Mariner]

Despite the scoreline, Italy were by no means thrashed by Holland - they could (and probably should) have scored one or two goals themselves.

You're right that they, along with Spain, do tend to fold under pressure though. :smile:

I hope France don't get anywhere this tournament. Despite having some good players they are an often very negative team and they were just awful against Romania the other day. Possibly down to the manager, perhaps? Let me see what the stars tell me about him...

 

[infinity4]

I find this competition more boring than all previous competitions watched based on so far.

Game pattern is always the same.

1, One scores and locks up defence
2, Other tries to score but attacking ends poor because opposition is locked. They are forced to bring all men forward giving loopholes.
3, Opposition walks away with simple counter attack goal

And so on. Nearly every single match is like this so far. And so much defending does no favour for fans.

 

[StefanS]

I hope France don't get anywhere this tournament. Despite having some good players they are an often very negative team and they were just awful against Romania the other day. Possibly down to the manager, perhaps? Let me see what the stars tell me about him...

I'd say he's the French equivalent of McLaren, TBH. He confined Ribéry to right side and told him to stay there. Ribéry didn't enjoy any of the freedom he normally has at Bayern Munich. Thus his performance paled in comparison to the genius passes he normally delivers at his club.