The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[ShadowRunner]

Would need to look at what criteria Guiness book of records is using. Are they looking at quikest selling in 30 days, 60days, first to 1 million, first to 5 million? The fastest selling consumer device is going to totally change depending on the criteria in use. It sounds like their record goes to the average units per day over the first sixty days from launch from the quotes ive seen. It doesnt mean it is actually the 'fastest selling' as a blanket statement, so many different products can be considered fastest selling, depending what criteria you are using is. Kinect is obviously the device that meets the book of records specific criteria.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No. Kinect actually makes things simpler than just using one or 2 buttons on a gamepad or one stick. You actually perform the actions you want your avatar to perform (assuming the controls are well done). It's simple and immersive in a way that a controller can never be.

Nothing more true than this. I've had a few parents comment on how they weren't interested in Wii due to the controller, yet are all over the Kinect for the same type of games.

Back when there was no Kinect, they would always say how X game on whatever console (X360/PS3/Wii/PS2/DS/N64/etc) looked fun to play but either the controller was a barrier (after trying it a few times) or they felt they would look silly (Wii).

Only once they had a chance to use the Kinect, they don't mind looking silly but they still have no interest in Wii due to the controller.

I've found that people who tend to "not get" Kinect tend to be those that are avid console or PC gamers with a long history of using console controllers or keyboard/mouse. And even there, they are generally a minority.

My question is. Why in the world Nesh brought this up in the Kinect games thread polluting it almost immediately after opening rather than posting in the more appropriate motion control thread that's been open this whole time.

I'd rather talk about upcoming Kinect games in this thread, discussing existing Kinect games, or impressions of games. Similar to the XBLA and indie games thread.

Regards,
SB

 

[Nesh]

My question is. Why in the world Nesh brought this up in the Kinect games thread polluting it almost immediately after opening rather than posting in the more appropriate motion control thread that's been open this whole time.

Read my last reply to the post. Also if a mod feels appropriate to move my posts to the other thread I dont mind, its fine with me. It just happened. It has nothing to do with the nature of this thread nor do I have any special intentions so I dont know you have this question

 

[mrcorbo]

Read my last reply to the post. Also if a mod feels appropriate to move my posts to the other thread I dont mind, its fine with me. It just happened. It has nothing to do with the nature of this thread nor do I have any special intentions so I dont know you have this question

I'll just say that I believe that the combination of future XBLA Kinect releases and the upcoming PC SDK will lead to more experimentation and risk-taking than we have seen thus far. I am also optimistic that the lack of complexity of Kinect games so far is more about developers' lack of experience with the platform than limitations of the technology. If we start seeing 2nd gen titles from the same developers that show no progression then maybe it's time to question whether any of the hype is justified.

 

[Scott_Arm]

You didnt get my point

Yes the brief experience I had playing my Kinect with friends was enjoyable, but how much I enjoyed it is irrelevant.

You fell to the same trap we all fell. Its the design of the games themselves that are simple and hence are accessible and not Kinect.
What happens is that Kinect has got the right concept behind it to pull our interest.
Then people experience the accessibility of the games and feel that its Kinect that does it but its all due to the simplicity of the games.
There are many examples that can be named.
Take the racing game. It can be done by simply using one analog stick that controls speed and steering.
Take Ping Pong or Tennis. It can be done by using one analog stick to control hand movement.
Take sprinting. It can be done by rapidly tapping two face buttons just like the old NES game.
You dont need kinect to make games that are just accessible and its not the controllers that made gaming less accessible. Controllers simply adapted to the evolution of hardware performance and gamer demand for more complex designed games.

For Kinect the developers removed gameplay input to make gameplay simple and the input they maintained was implemented to gestures instead of buttons and sticks. Its that simple. They could do just as simple games on the current controllers too. They will only take advantage of less buttons

Do you want to make a game like Devil May Cry, Vanguish or Gears on Kinect to be just as accessible as the current kinect games? It either cant be done or the developer will have to streamline the gameplay to make it accessible. It will require more physical input and physical effort in order to maintain the same gameplay elements.
The Kinect homebrew FPS game demos is an example of this. They have been implemented well with Kinect but none beat the accessibility and simplicity of the simple designed games that were made for Kinect so far. Kung Fu live falls somewhat in a similar situation. Its got its accessible aspect, but they tried to implement elements from present beat em up games too, adding as a result a less accessible, tiring aspect at the same time.

So no, I dont agree that its Kinect that made the games more accessible, but the simple design of the games made for it, while Kinect provided the right concept to pick the interest of both the non-gaming crowd and gaming crowd because its different.

It does wonders. But I point to the right perspective

We've all been tricked, guys. Throw down your controllers and demand better. I mean ... stop standing in front of your controllers?

Am I wrong, or does this post completely miss the point of Kinect? The fun is in doing something yourself, rather than pressing a button and having it done for you. The games, so far, are simple. Who cares? .... other than Nesh.

 

[Nesh]

We've all been tricked, guys. Throw down your controllers and demand better. I mean ... stop standing in front of your controllers?

Am I wrong, or does this post completely miss the point of Kinect? The fun is in doing something yourself, rather than pressing a button and having it done for you. The games, so far, are simple. Who cares? .... other than Nesh.

Obviously we arent talking about the same thing. Yes the point of Kinect is doing stuff yourself and that the the controller will no longer limit the user.
We all got that. At least the first part. The second it still has to prove itself
I am referring to the current accessibility and I only pointed out that stuff we can do in the current Kinect games are narrowed by game design to allow that accessibility. It cant magically transform games. The stuff they allow yourself to do is most of the time fewer than what you may actually perform in previous games (Hell I cant by myself be doing barel rolls to cover! Its freakin' hard! So dont expect do be doing everything yourself in every game! Just as currently you arent accelerating when driving or using your feet to move when playing tennis). Some input is streamlined which I already accepted as doing wonders to casual gaming and its accessibility (so really where do we disagree?). Yes I pointed that out and also pointed that I dont expect more complex games on Kinect to turn out just as easily accessible again not necessarily a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with it.

Did I have fun with it? Yes. Do I still care? Of course. A little because I d like to be able to do more in the future. But its not because I care or not that I pointed my view. I simply did. And some are defensive by it as if I am trying to throw dirt on Kinect

So I will leave it as that. I dont want this polluting loop discussion to continue anyways

At the risk of "polluting" the thread further, I'll just say that I believe that the combination of future XBLA Kinect releases and the upcoming PC SDK will lead to more experimentation and risk-taking than we have seen thus far. I am also optimistic that the lack of complexity of Kinect games so far is more about developers' lack of experience with the platform than limitations of the technology. If we start seeing 2nd gen titles from the same developers that show no progression then maybe it's time to question whether any of the hype is justified.

I agree. If you go back to my very first post you will notice the phrase "so far" which alludes to the current state of Kinect games. So lets give it the benefit of the doubt

 

[ShadowRunner]

I get what you are saying and after some cosideration i think i may agree. The accessability with Kinect games comes more from the game design, Kinect is playing the part of making a simple and accessable game design desireable to people. If Kinect was used with a a game design like COD as is, it wouldnt make the game more accessable to your grandad, but a change to that game design to suit kinect may. Kinect is able to make simple and accessable game ideas fun and desirable, and this is its true strength IMO.

We've all been tricked, guys. Throw down your controllers and demand better. I mean ... stop standing in front of your controllers?

Am I wrong, or does this post completely miss the point of Kinect? The fun is in doing something yourself, rather than pressing a button and having it done for you. The games, so far, are simple. Who cares? .... other than Nesh.

I dont think Nesh ment to discredit Kinect, more start a meaningful discussion about Kinect games and their design. Though i think such discussions have become almost impossible on B3D lately and only serve to derail threads. Its a shame really.

 

[Nesh]

As I have already said if a Mod feels to move my posts to the other thread he is free to do it.

I get what you are saying and after some cosideration i think i may agree. The accessability with Kinect games comes more from the game design, Kinect is playing the part of making a simple and accessable game design desireable to people. If Kinect was used with a a game design like COD as is, it wouldnt make the game more accessable to your grandad, but a change to that game design to suit kinect may. Kinect is able to make simple and accessable game ideas fun and desirable, and this is its true strength IMO.



I dont think Nesh ment to discredit Kinect, more start a meaningful discussion about Kinect games and their design. Though i think such discussions have become almost impossible on B3D lately and only serve to derail threads. Its a shame really.

Exactly! Thank you!

 

[zed]

Would need to look at what criteria Guiness book of records is using. Are they looking at quikest selling in 30 days, 60days, first to 1 million, first to 5 million? The fastest selling consumer device is going to totally change depending on the criteria in use. It sounds like their record goes to the average units per day over the first sixty days from launch from the quotes ive seen. It doesnt mean it is actually the 'fastest selling' as a blanket statement, so many different products can be considered fastest selling, depending what criteria you are using is. Kinect is obviously the device that meets the book of records specific criteria.

yes this is sort of what Ive been implying, Guiness has become like a company selling records. I remember about 6 months ago, I saw a guiness record of the 'largest game world in a driving game' or something stopid.
OK WRT to this record I have an easy question.
What was the current record holder?
was there anything?

WRT multiple models, um well the ps2/ps3/xbox360 etc all come with multiple models (slim models, different HD etc).
yet they count them together, surely youre not advocating not counting them together

also rotmm I have proven the following is not correct, moving >200million in 3.5 years is mathematically impossible for it NOT to sell more than 8million within any 60day time span

"The sales figures here speak for themselves," said Gaz Deaves, Gaming Editor for Guinness World Records. "According to independent research, no other consumer electronics device sold faster within a 60-day time span, which is an incredible achievement considering the strength of the sector."

PS - I loved the atari controller, it just felt so solid, something you could wrench when youre caught up in the gameplay

 

[mrcorbo]

also rotmm I have proven the following is not correct, moving >200million in 3.5 years is mathematically impossible for it NOT to sell more than 8million within any 60day time span

It's likely, though it's not specified, they mean within the first 60 days. This seems to me to be implied when they use the term "fastest" as opposed to "most".

 

[mrcorbo]

I get what you are saying and after some cosideration i think i may agree. The accessability with Kinect games comes more from the game design, Kinect is playing the part of making a simple and accessable game design desireable to people. If Kinect was used with a a game design like COD as is, it wouldnt make the game more accessable to your grandad, but a change to that game design to suit kinect may. Kinect is able to make simple and accessable game ideas fun and desirable, and this is its true strength IMO.

To be fair, the opposite is also true. A simple game design may seem complicated to an inexperienced gamer if they are not comfortable with the control mechanism. IMHO it's just as valuable to the "casual" experience that Kinect controls, when implemented competently, don't add complexity to some of the simple game designs.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

also rotmm I have proven the following is not correct, moving >200million in 3.5 years is mathematically impossible for it NOT to sell more than 8million within any 60day time span

Just like Movies go from start of release up to X days out for fastest grossing movie totals, so too does Guiness use sales from start of release up to X days out.

And as mrcorbo noted, it isn't about who sold the most. But who sold the fastest. Taking an arbitrary 3 month period 2 years into a products lifespan does nothing to show how fast the uptake of the product was.

Claims for fastest selling devices are almost always based on number of sales starting from release up to X days out from release. Perhaps an argument could be made that 60 days is too limiting. However when retailers look at things like this they generally tend to focus on the holiday shopping season. Hence usually Nov-Dec numbers. Although recent years have had holiday shopping creeping in somewhat into Oct.

Regards,
SB

 

[Prophecy2k]

In my view Kinect's true strength, or potential if you will, is switching out the mould altogether for game designers and forcing them to think outside of the box to design games that would be both fun and accessible to the devices' audience.

I consider most of the launch efforts to be poor examples of this, with many simply aping existing concepts that have worked before on other platforms with various other control interfaces (albeit many working better with Kinect). However given the development challenge of launch software, this is an inherent issue of which i neither blame the platform holder nor the developer themselves.

I do however hope that the software will in future begin to diversify and game designers will be able to start really going out there to make some "never-before-seen" gameplay concepts. Otherwise the gameplay genres/types represented in the launch lineup will simply be rehashed over and over and the platform will tank.

Kinect needs creative game designers and in truth, with the way the industry has become an FPS & sequel factory this gen, i believe game designers need Kinect. It's a big gamble though because at this point in the gen many big pubs & studios can't afford to spend forever concepting ideas that might or might not work on Kinect, however the Kinect PC/homebrew scene will certainly help them out a whole lot.

I'm hoping for both Move and Kinect to start seeing games specifically tailored to their interfaces. That way people can hopefully be swayed away from FPS-o-philia and start learning to appreciate other gameplay styles/genres that can be far more fun.

I also appreciate both motion control interfaces (as well as the Wii) for going a way towards lifting the banner for local multiplayer play (as opposed to the online variant which i mostly loathe - not completely tho).

 

[makattack]

This is funny:

http://mail.google.com/mail/help/motion.html

and the corollary argument:

http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/04/improving-finger-dexterity-for-faster.html

 

[jeff_rigby]

This is funny:

http://mail.google.com/mail/help/motion.html

and the corollary argument:

http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/04/improving-finger-dexterity-for-faster.html

Yes it is. When I see kids in front of the PS3 with something like start the party I recognize how much of a couch potato the Sixaxis makes me.

Body gesture recognition and finger exercise for touchpads and Chrome web products and this multi-touch keyboard-touchpad which might be useable on the PS3 after October : wireless-keyboard-features-magical-multitouch-trackpad

Behold the future (of keyboards). New from far away lands comes this $69 wireless slim keyboard with “Smart TouchPad.” See that touchpad in the lower right corner there? It’s a multitouch trackpad that switches to a ten-key number pad — like magic!

The multitouch feature registers a series of two- and three-finger presses for scrolling, zooming, window switching, tapping, and more.

SOME Games designed for touchscreens would work on the PS3 using the above keyboard (provided Sony supports multi-touch keyboards in Firmware 4.0). Chances of this happening guys? IF supported do you think this will change how the XMB is designed or games coming to the PS3?

It's priced right, I'd buy one today if I knew the PS3 will support it. It should result in a large user base supporting touchscreen games on the PS3. People who use ios, Android or the coming NGP would feel right at home on the PS3 with the above keyboard or something similar. This I guess is the reason this keyboard was created and I suspect the PC world is going to support multi-touch for desktops which means everyone will support it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

SOME Games designed for touchscreens would work on the PS3 using the above keyboard (provided Sony supports multi-touch keyboards in Firmware 4.0). Chances of this happening guys? IF supported do you think this will change how the XMB is designed or games coming to the PS3?

PS3 already supports mouse, KB and graphics tablets. No games have ever been written to support tablets AFAIK. No games would ever be written to support a multitouch surface unless they are targeting NGP cross-compatibility. And if no software is going to support multitouch surfaces because the install base will be so tiny, there's little point in adding support in the OS. Without a dedicated multitouch surface peripheral, I wouldn't count any third-party device like that keyboard as a new non-standard game interface, any more than I'd count the Wacom Intuos as a non-standard games interface that works with PS3.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS3 already supports mouse, KB and graphics tablets. No games have ever been written to support tablets AFAIK. No games would ever be written to support a multitouch surface unless they are targeting NGP cross-compatibility. And if no software is going to support multitouch surfaces because the install base will be so tiny, there's little point in adding support in the OS. Without a dedicated multitouch surface peripheral, I wouldn't count any third-party device like that keyboard as a new non-standard game interface, any more than I'd count the Wacom Intuos as a non-standard games interface that works with PS3.

The multi-touch touchpads have been out for more than 2 years, 3 years for Apple. They are now down to $29.00. I think you would be hard pressed to find a reputable retailer selling anything but multi-touch wireless keyboards.

There is a convert able combination keyboard and multi-touchpad that has what looks like a 16:9 shape that may roughly map to a screen.

And the logic is chicken and egg, no games have been released for the PS3 with multi-touch support because Sony has not included multi-touch support. As you recognize, the coming ecosystem NGP-Android and PS suite might change things.

Edit: The NGP and coming Android tablet will most likely be used as keyboards and touchscreen control of Sony CE devices including the PS3. IF this is the case might multi-touch be supported. Then games like Angry birds might find their way to CE platforms and be optionally supported with multi touch.

And of course I have enough doubts that I will not purchase a new multi-touch keyboard until I know that Sony is going to support them and whose will be supported which supports your argument.

Firefox is going to support multi-touch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgbGp3ZnOfw and mentioned was websites also supporting multi-touch. Of course, this feature would only be enabled for platforms with multi-touch support. I would guess from this that webkit will eventually have this feature pushed back into the main branch. One example given for multi-touch (the last) was for a web based Pong game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

And the logic is chicken and egg, no games have been released for the PS3 with multi-touch support because Sony has not included multi-touch support. As you recognize, the coming ecosystem NGP-Android and PS suite might change things.

No. Peripherals are unreliable at best and investing in a hope isn't good business sense. There are lots of remote keyboards that work with PS3, including the sixaxis plugin keypad with its touch surface. There's lots of potential for people to own extended input methods, but they typically don't get used. It makes zero sense to target them. Even official peripherals like Live Vision, EyeToy, and Move, that have some backing from the console companies, see little adoption into games. Something like touchpad support would be targeting a tiddly fraction of install base. Even providing OS support, history shows it'll likely not receive widespread use unless its an official bundle. If Sony really want to go this way, they'd need a PS3 bundle with a PlayStation Touchpad to effectively communicate the new position and potential.

Certainly a 3rd party peripheral not targeting consoles and not actively supported in consoles does not constitute a new game interface.

 

[patsu]

Move.me work in progress:
http://jacobpennock.com/blog/2011/03/28/sony-move-linux-mouse-driver/

 

[Dregun]

About 4 months ago my 40GB PS3 had the YLOD, after sending it to get repaired by a 3rd party and subsequently failing the next day I took it upon myself to do the repairs. Long story short I have repaired it once again since then but I'm extremely worried that at some point it would die and I'd be without my PS3.

Last week Wednesday I dropped the hammer on the PS3+Move bundle, 320GB ps3 with the move for only $350?? Why not!!

I'm loving it for all the reasons I HATE my Wii!! This isn't gesture games its movement games and I'm itching to find more titles to play. I've been curious about the Kinect but the lag I've witnessed put me off. I hope at one point MS just sucks up and releases a controller of sorts or a pair of gloves or something to help speed it up so I could get that too..

I'm glad all three consoles are supporting motion gaming and can't wait to see what MS and Sony offer next for thier motion based systems. I love the fact that all 3 work differently and it's just one more reason my Wii has about a 1/4" of dust on it.