The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Nesh]

Yeah Killzone 3 with Move is brilliant. Finished the game about an hour ago. What a blast
My kinect is still collecting dust though and I paid 140 Euros for it
I should have probably waited
Paid less for the former and got more, while paid more for the latter and got almost nothing. I hope something worthwhile for us is released soon or I will be pissed especially if Kinect gets a large price drop by then

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well it might but kinect has been and still is a success in the UK going by the weekly charts.[/quote}Sure, I certainly wasn't trying knock Kinect in any way. It's a system that's really got traction. I'm just curious how it's selling in different countries as you tend to get regional interests, and I'm wondering if the space issues are showing up as lower sales per unit population of 360 owners in each country.

 

[zed]

no other consumer electronics device sold faster within a 60-day time span

I betcha my phone did!
over 200million sold in about 3.5 years
still good sales for kinect

 

[bkilian]

I betcha my phone did!
over 200million sold in about 3.5 years
still good sales for kinect

60 days from launch. Not a random 60 day sample.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/03/02/aspiring-developers-take-note-move-me-unveiled-at-gdc/

That's pretty much going to kill Move on PC for anyone that doesn't have a PS3. If that doesn't change I don't see any developers putting in any effort into using Move on PC.

Regards,
SB

 

[zed]

@bkilian, read

no other consumer electronics device sold faster within a 60-day time span

Ive proven this statement to plainly be incorrect. Though Im not surprised with Guinness as they have become since quite a few years, a company desirous for revenue + not an organization desirous for facts

 

[Rotmm]

Ive proven this statement to plainly be incorrect

Where?

 

[mrcorbo]

I assume the xbox360/ps3/wii are made in china (or somewhere) this doesnt mean theyre chinese consoles, or do you disagree

It's less an issue of where they were manufactured and more an issue of branding. The 3DO systems were branded Panasonic and would therefore be viewed as coming from Panasonic to an average consumer. Hondas that are manufactured in the US aren't considered American cars.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Where?

I second that request. Let's see some facts. A link with actual figures would be nice.

(and 200million over 3.5 years is less than 10million every 60 days)

 

[Nesh]

A while ago some guys I talked to complained that Joyride has auto-steering to compensate for lag, and that you weren't always in control of where the car was going. Now there's a guy showing this in a little more detail. I personally don't think it's that bad - this kind of subtle assistance is clever, and makes the game more accessible. If anything, I'd say good job playability team! But it is funny to look at.

I actually find current Kinect games stupid. The benefits it offers are mostly delusional and artificial. Its Kinect that is supposed to make gaming simpler and accessible for everyone, but actually developers dont do this with it. Its the reverse that happens. In reality they make games simpler so that they are compatible with Kinect instead. Remove kinect and imagine controlling them with a controller and you immediately understand how superficial and lacklaster they are. The game design they followed so far are games for dummies and streamlined to the point that it makes me wonder if the hype of immersive richer experiences and "you are the controller" talk was worth it. What it lets you actually control is in reality very limited

The video you posted is an example of this. Up to thus point Kinect games offer an on rails experience that require limited input and offer limited experience of what you can actually perform in game.

In other words it appears to be limiting the experience and the things you can perform than doing the opposite so far.

 

[zed]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/07/nokias-1100-handset-over-200-million-served/
it launched end of 2003
thus ~156k a day over ~3.5 years

Guinness World Records has officially named Kinect for Xbox 360 the fastest-selling consumer electronics device , which sold an average of 133,333 units per day for a total of eight million units in its first 60 days between November 4, 2010 and January 3, 2011

 

[NavNucST3]

I actually find current Kinect games stupid. The benefits it offers are mostly delusional and artificial. Its Kinect that is supposed to make gaming simpler and accessible for everyone, but actually developers dont do this with it. Its the reverse that happens. In reality they make games simpler so that they are compatible with Kinect instead. Remove kinect and imagine controlling them with a controller and you immediately understand how superficial and lacklaster they are. The game design they followed so far are games for dummies and streamlined to the point that it makes me wonder if the hype of immersive richer experiences and "you are the controller" talk was worth it. What it lets you actually control is in reality very limited

The video you posted is an example of this. Up to thus point Kinect games offer an on rails experience that require limited input and offer limited experience of what you can actually perform in game.

In other words it appears to be limiting the experience and the things you can perform than doing the opposite so far.

That is a pretty strong reaction, I don't concur, but I know others who feel as you do so I would not call it an invalid perspective. As for me I'll take physically bumping, setting and spiking in Kinect Sports over left thumb to move, A, A, X (that is me imagining volleyball with a controller). I'm going to suggest that there is a vast difference of opinion between what you and I call "immersive" and "limited experience" because my Kinect characters are responding to my body as opposed to the speed of my thumbs. This debate will go on for quite some time so I'd wager we would need to agree to disagree.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Nokia said on Thursday that the entry-level 1100 and its heirs had surpassed the 200 million-unit milestone.

The 1100 and its followers -- 1101, 1108, 1110, 1110i, 1112

So multiple models.

 

[Graham]

I actually find current Kinect games stupid. The benefits it offers are mostly delusional and artificial. Its Kinect that is supposed to make gaming simpler and accessible for everyone, but actually developers dont do this with it. Its the reverse that happens. In reality they make games simpler so that they are compatible with Kinect instead. Remove kinect and imagine controlling them with a controller and you immediately understand how superficial and lacklaster they are. The game design they followed so far are games for dummies and streamlined to the point that it makes me wonder if the hype of immersive richer experiences and "you are the controller" talk was worth it. What it lets you actually control is in reality very limited

The video you posted is an example of this. Up to thus point Kinect games offer an on rails experience that require limited input and offer limited experience of what you can actually perform in game.

In other words it appears to be limiting the experience and the things you can perform than doing the opposite so far.

Sorry to hear you're not enjoying it as much as we are.

I think you are wrong in your assertions. In my opinion the games are more accessible and much more fun because they aren't using a modern controller.

I'll paraphrase something I read a while ago:

Over time, industries that target a niche tend to specialise and optimise for their devoted customers - usually further alienating others.

Gaming is a great example of this.
Consider what many of today's gamers grew up with:

Pretty accessible and didn't really limit people having fun.

Fast forward to today, the modern controller has an 8-direction dpad, 4 face buttons, three system buttons, two bumper buttons, two analog control sticks, two stick buttons, two analog triggers, at least 4 lights and (in the case of Sony) pressure sensitive face buttons and motion sensing. 17 buttons and 6 analog axis.

When being fully utilised a modern controller is utterly and totally inaccessible to anyone who didn't grow up with gaming. Even one button+stick games confuse people (pressing wrong buttons, etc)

So here we have Kinect, which I'd argue is the most accessible piece of technology in history.
It's also amazingly precise (considering what it's doing) and robust (also considering). With it you can do more than the Atari joystick above - even JoyRide demonstrates this (boosting, grabbing, drifting, etc).

Combine these things, and suddenly a huge chunk of the world can now approach gaming and understand it. And have a hell of a lot of fun at the same time.
People are enjoying the games, even if they are very simple. Just like people enjoyed Atari games and earlier. But now there is an added level of immersion and far less abstraction because you are using your body - which means it's more fun.

... I could go on but writing this is irritating me. It has made me remember how tired I am of 'core' games. They aren't really fun anymore.

 

[Rotmm]

So multiple models.

Yup, that.

And...

it launched end of 2003
thus ~156k a day over ~3.5 years

...what does that have to do with the record for the "fastest selling"? How many did it sell in the first 60 days, the first 100 days, etc? I'd have though you understand that you can't just take a figure, divide it and then work backwards.

For example, let's take a random product: PS2
Now a random start date: March 2000
And now a random end date: Dec 2007.

At the start of March there were 0 PS2's sold, in December 2007 the total was 127 million. So from that can I state honestly, as proof, that there was 18 million PS2's sold between March 2000 and March 2001? I would rather look as more precise sales data as proof, if I'm being honest.

So as expected, your proof bears a greater resemblence to Rumsfield showing a picture of a campervan in Iraq as proof of WMD's than to anything with a substantive factual grounding.

 

[NavNucST3]

...

Gaming is a great example of this.
Consider what many of today's gamers grew up with:

...

... I could go on but writing this is irritating me. It has made me remember how tired I am of 'core' games. They aren't really fun anymore.

There was nothing more frustrating that that thing...omg...I would literally rip the rubber off the controller to get to just the plastic joy so that it would be "more accurate" that thing controlled like a battleship...

Graham, I'm probably where you are, what bothers me the most in todays game world is the dismissal of what would have been the former "core" games that now because they may launch on PSN or XBLA or WiiWare that they aren't games or as most say "real games". And, to keep this paragraph from spawning a new thread let me link it to Kinect by suggesting that this is exactly what is being said about the Kinect games, that they aren't real games or worse that those of us playing it aren't real gamers but being a Wii owner I'm familiar with that sentiment. For my household the Wii never got as much consistent playtime and strangely enough nowhere near as much family play sessions as Kinect has.

 

[Tap In]

There was nothing more frustrating that that thing...omg...I would literally rip the rubber off the controller to get to just the plastic joy so that it would be "more accurate" that thing controlled like a battleship...

I used to hold it in my right hand from the bottom and just put my right thumb on top of the stick (like a current controller stick) was the only way i could play otherwise trying to hold it like a joystick was horrible.

You guys are getitng me excited for Kinect. I have played it at a friend's house (where Graham's explanation played out as NON-gamers got in on the action where they never would have before).

I am waiting for some more complelling games however (and am too old to play like Robert ) so i'll keep an eye on this thread.

Spoiler

thanks Shifty

 

[Nesh]

Sorry to hear you're not enjoying it as much as we are.

I think you are wrong in your assertions. In my opinion the games are more accessible and much more fun because they aren't using a modern controller.

I'll paraphrase something I read a while ago:



Gaming is a great example of this.
Consider what many of today's gamers grew up with:

Pretty accessible and didn't really limit people having fun.

Fast forward to today, the modern controller has an 8-direction dpad, 4 face buttons, three system buttons, two bumper buttons, two analog control sticks, two stick buttons, two analog triggers, at least 4 lights and (in the case of Sony) pressure sensitive face buttons and motion sensing. 17 buttons and 6 analog axis.

When being fully utilised a modern controller is utterly and totally inaccessible to anyone who didn't grow up with gaming. Even one button+stick games confuse people (pressing wrong buttons, etc)

So here we have Kinect, which I'd argue is the most accessible piece of technology in history.
It's also amazingly precise (considering what it's doing) and robust (also considering). With it you can do more than the Atari joystick above - even JoyRide demonstrates this (boosting, grabbing, drifting, etc).

Combine these things, and suddenly a huge chunk of the world can now approach gaming and understand it. And have a hell of a lot of fun at the same time.
People are enjoying the games, even if they are very simple. Just like people enjoyed Atari games and earlier. But now there is an added level of immersion and far less abstraction because you are using your body - which means it's more fun.

... I could go on but writing this is irritating me. It has made me remember how tired I am of 'core' games. They aren't really fun anymore.

You didnt get my point

Yes the brief experience I had playing my Kinect with friends was enjoyable, but how much I enjoyed it is irrelevant.

You fell to the same trap we all fell. Its the design of the games themselves that are simple and hence are accessible and not Kinect.
What happens is that Kinect has got the right concept behind it to pull our interest.
Then people experience the accessibility of the games and feel that its Kinect that does it but its all due to the simplicity of the games.
There are many examples that can be named.
Take the racing game. It can be done by simply using one analog stick that controls speed and steering.
Take Ping Pong or Tennis. It can be done by using one analog stick to control hand movement.
Take sprinting. It can be done by rapidly tapping two face buttons just like the old NES game.
You dont need kinect to make games that are just accessible and its not the controllers that made gaming less accessible. Controllers simply adapted to the evolution of hardware performance and gamer demand for more complex designed games.

For Kinect the developers removed gameplay input to make gameplay simple and the input they maintained was implemented to gestures instead of buttons and sticks. Its that simple. They could do just as simple games on the current controllers too. They will only take advantage of less buttons

Do you want to make a game like Devil May Cry, Vanguish or Gears on Kinect to be just as accessible as the current kinect games? It either cant be done or the developer will have to streamline the gameplay to make it accessible. It will require more physical input and physical effort in order to maintain the same gameplay elements.
The Kinect homebrew FPS game demos is an example of this. They have been implemented well with Kinect but none beat the accessibility and simplicity of the simple designed games that were made for Kinect so far. Kung Fu live falls somewhat in a similar situation. Its got its accessible aspect, but they tried to implement elements from present beat em up games too, adding as a result a less accessible, tiring aspect at the same time.

So no, I dont agree that its Kinect that made the games more accessible, but the simple design of the games made for it, while Kinect provided the right concept to pick the interest of both the non-gaming crowd and gaming crowd because its different.

It does wonders. But I point to the right perspective

 

[AlphaWolf]

You didnt get my point

Yes the brief experience I had playing my Kinect with friends was enjoyable, but how much I enjoyed it is irrelevant.

You fell to the same trap we all fell. Its the design of the games themselves that are simple and hence are accessible and not Kinect.
What happens is that Kinect has got the right concept behind it to pull our interest.
Then people experience the accessibility of the games and feel that its Kinect that does it but its all due to the simplicity of the games.
There are many examples that can be named.
Take the racing game. It can be done by simply using one analog stick that controls speed and steering.
Take Ping Pong or Tennis. It can be done by using one analog stick to control hand movement.
Take sprinting. It can be done by rapidly tapping two face buttons just like the old NES game.
You dont need kinect to make games that are just accessible and its not the controllers that made gaming less accessible. Controllers simply adapted to the evolution of hardware performance and gamer demand.

For Kinect the developers removed gameplay input to make gameplay simple and the input they maintained was implemented to gestures instead of buttons and sticks. Its that simple. They could do just as simple games on the current controllers too. They will only take advantage of less buttons

No. Kinect actually makes things simpler than just using one or 2 buttons on a gamepad or one stick. You actually perform the actions you want your avatar to perform (assuming the controls are well done). It's simple and immersive in a way that a controller can never be.

Do you want to make a game like Devil May Cry, Vanguish or Gears on Kinect to be just as accessible as the current kinect games? It either cant be done or the developer will have to streamline the gameplay to make it accessible. It will require more physical input and physical effort in order to maintain the same gameplay elements.
The Kinect homebrew FPS game demos is an example of this. They have been implemented well with Kinect but none beat the accessibility and simplicity of the simple designed games that were made for Kinect so far.

So no, I dont agree that its Kinect that made the games more accessible, but the simple design of the games made for it, while Kinect provided the right concept to pick the interest of both the non-gaming crowd and gaming crowd because its different.

It does wonders. But I point to the right perspective

Your perspective is that of a gamer, who is used to using an entirely hand based input medium. Try asking someone who has never played a game which input system makes more sense to them. You might not agree that kinect does anything to bring the games to casuals, but I think you'll have a pretty hard time convincing anyone of that, especially casuals.

I doubt very much that kinect will replace standard controllers anytime in the near future for core games.

 

[Nesh]

No. Kinect actually makes things simpler than just using one or 2 buttons on a gamepad or one stick. You actually perform the actions you want your avatar to perform (assuming the controls are well done). It's simple and immersive in a way that a controller can never be.

It doesnt make it simpler. Its equally as simple. Its just that gestures are just more interesting concepts to make non-interested people want to play (which is almost a rephrase of what you said)

Your perspective is that of a gamer, who is used to using an entirely hand based input medium. Try asking someone who has never played a game which input system makes more sense to them. You might not agree that kinect does anything to bring the games to casuals, but I think you'll have a pretty hard time convincing anyone of that, especially casuals.

I doubt very much that kinect will replace standard controllers anytime in the near future for core games.

No no I think you misunderstand me.

Just to make my view clearer: If Gears 4 uses Kinect it may appeal to me even if it doesnt require a controller in my hands. Strictly speaking about the accessibility, the required learning curve and input may continue not to appeal to the new gamer Kinect loving crowd like the newly introduced grandpa or girlfriend if the developer wants to maintain gameplay complexity unless the game is designed with simplicity in mind (edit: but that may end it up not appealling to me).

I agree that Kinect does succeed to bring gaming into casuals, but that does it by providing the right concept to get the casuals interested to games developed for them in mind. You can call it "intuitive" controls if you like for games that folllow simple gameplay designs that were abandoned years ago.
If the developer chooses to make a complex Kinect game he will do it. I simply cant expect it to be as family friendly as the current Kinect games are (that made even my mom and female friends play who hated gaming) and the targeted audience will be different.