The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[goonergaz]

Hope this helps.

Are both instances in-game or from the dashboard/hub? In-game, stepping out of view should remove that player or you can use the guide (hold out left arm 45 degrees). If you mean the kinect hub, the sign-in tile is on the previous screen. So if you don't have KinectIDs setup for the gamertags, you can reach sign-in there with your hands or voice. Also, recovered gamertags default to auto sign-in which can confuse matters.



It's supposed to be closest to the camera gets control. But if you're both practically equidistant, and both using two different command inputs, that would probably confuse Kinect big time. I wonder what would happen if you simultaneously added a controller to that mix. 3 inputs at once? Red Ring just on principle?



Did you calibrate it at different times of the day using the face card?



No, it's probably as good as it gets. Sorry you spent so much money. . Take it back and put the money towards two 3DS units. Everybody should win with that move. As for the sports game, I hope you mean Kinect Sports. Absolutely do not under any circumstances "play" Motion Sports.

cheers mate, it was in both scenarios that the sign-in was playing up...the main issue was in the dash, but as I said, in game odd stuff was happening. TBH it probably just needs more calibration, I need to set it up to recognise everyone and calibrate in all light conditions and see how it goes. Yes, I did mean the kinect sports title!

it's also surprising how much space it needs, 2 players in a squeeze in our front room (which I always thought was quite big!) so it'll be interesting to see how many are returned/sold on

 

[patsu]

http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2011/01/rumor-official-playstation-move.html

The description of an upcoming GDC2011 session to be conducted by SCEA's "Lead of the Game Systems team in Developer Support" John McCutchan hints at the possible release of a PlayStation Move development kit for PC.

Published on this page, the session description reads as follows (interesting part in bold):

"This talk will bring developers up to speed on developing for the PlayStation Move controller. We will cover developing for the new PlayStation Move Sharp Shooter accessory. We will discuss the new Move Server project that will make it possible for academics and hobbyists to develop software using the PlayStation Move controller on their own PCs"

...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Chasing after Kinect interest!

 

[Rotmm]

Chasing after Kinect interest!

Or, as I'm sure Arwin will point out, this will be a very deliberate attempt by Sony to target the millions of PC geeks in an effort to meet their Move sales targets.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

IF there was move support in graphics applications like Z-Brush, they may get some interest. Maybe for media PCs it's a nice living room interface? Generally though I can't see there being much interest. It's just not exciting. Wii has already done most of the wand-style homebrew experimentation. Kinect is the New Land of Opportunity where you can wow people with your new creations, and has real relevance for future interface technologies so will be worth using at colleges and universities. Move is pretty much a known quantity, offering only remarkable precision which doesn't have much relevance for the homebrew market IMO. Maybe there's some interest in extending the sorts of demos Anton showed, but the pointing accuracy and grab/release mechanics of Kinect are working so well that things like the cameleon demo can be implemented more intuitively and impressively with Kinect. Basically whatever Move would offer can be done with more excitement on Kinect, except the precision rotation and stuff, which seems of very niche interest to me.

 

[jeff_rigby]

IF there was move support in graphics applications like Z-Brush, they may get some interest. Maybe for media PCs it's a nice living room interface? Generally though I can't see there being much interest. It's just not exciting. Wii has already done most of the wand-style homebrew experimentation. Kinect is the New Land of Opportunity where you can wow people with your new creations, and has real relevance for future interface technologies so will be worth using at colleges and universities. Move is pretty much a known quantity, offering only remarkable precision which doesn't have much relevance for the homebrew market IMO. Maybe there's some interest in extending the sorts of demos Anton showed, but the pointing accuracy and grab/release mechanics of Kinect are working so well that things like the cameleon demo can be implemented more intuitively and impressively with Kinect. Basically whatever Move would offer can be done with more excitement on Kinect, except the precision rotation and stuff, which seems of very niche interest to me.

Everything you said above is correct for 2D but if 3-D catches on the accuracy of the "Move" in 2D combined with 3-D makes the "Move" a super air mouse with 3-D. As such it might see use outside of Playstation and become a standard. The price of "move" for use without a camera as just an air mouse is competitive. Add in the buttons for programmable use, the glowing globe to draw attention to the speaker and it's use in manipulating objects, I.E. virtually in 3-D and I can imagine it's use in organic chemistry. Kinect would not be accurate enough to pick an atom out of a molecule, rotate and move to another position in the organic chain.

The same applies to all 3-D imaging as in NMR.

The angle and distance from the camera affects both Kinect and Move but I believe Move (with higher resolution camera) can still work accurately at much larger distances from the camera where even our eyes, with the limited distance between them, can't tell how much distance (depth) from one object to another and our brains have to rely on the relative size of objects to tell distance which is what "Move" does with the glowing globe.

Then you have that the software for move is probably MUCH simpler and nearly foolproof while Kinect is complicated and has many conditionals. Sorta like glassless 3-D is now, you have to be at a set distance and angle from the Kinect sensor. The kinect sensor even automatically moves to direct it'self to the correct angle. This will work for the livingroom. Outside that environment it's still possible but the hardware and software gets much more expensive.

I can sit back and imagine how Kinect could work at larger distances and angles. For instance, don't use two cameras use a scanning IR laser to determine distance, that would allow for accuracy at much larger distances. But how would you target the speaker or players hand...best way would be with a distinctive optical clue...Oh, best way with a led target of a unique color....just as Move does. You can go on and on like this and come to the conclusion that "Move" is already designed for the cheapest most accurate solution.

Shifty you mentioned that "Move" can be used by the NGP, as it just requires a camera, blutooth and software. The same applies to most new Skype (camera) equipped TVs as well as all Android and iOS tablets. The overhead needed by "move" is designed to be low.

That said, there is in development third party Kinect like accessories that are eventually going to be included in TVs.

Just as with the PS3 chipset being used by Sony in 4K video editing products, the "Move" may be used with Sony cameras and projectors as the "Standard" controller in educational settings. In a large hall there is probably already a camera positioned on the lecturer or speaker, that video feed can be used by "move". I.E. the support for move is already in place.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Everything you said above is correct for 2D but if 3-D catches on the accuracy of the "Move" in 2D combined with 3-D makes the "Move" a super air mouse with 3-D.

That's true, but pretty irrelevant for the next few years. The number of people with 3D monitors is going to remain remarkably niche. NMR is one of those pro situations I can see Move could contribute to, but I don't know if anyone will investigate it.

I've just thought though, actually there is a chance of Move doing well - in combination with Kinect! It's what we've all been wanting, and the PC will offer the chance to integrate Move's perfect full-dimensions tracking with Kinect's full body tracking. The ultimate Jedi game would have a Move lightsabre and Kinect hand tracking for force powers. In this respect Move might be able to piggyback nicely of Kinect's PC adoption.

 

[Arwin]

IF there was move support in graphics applications like Z-Brush, they may get some interest. Maybe for media PCs it's a nice living room interface? Generally though I can't see there being much interest. It's just not exciting. Wii has already done most of the wand-style homebrew experimentation. Kinect is the New Land of Opportunity where you can wow people with your new creations, and has real relevance for future interface technologies so will be worth using at colleges and universities. Move is pretty much a known quantity, offering only remarkable precision which doesn't have much relevance for the homebrew market IMO. Maybe there's some interest in extending the sorts of demos Anton showed, but the pointing accuracy and grab/release mechanics of Kinect are working so well that things like the cameleon demo can be implemented more intuitively and impressively with Kinect. Basically whatever Move would offer can be done with more excitement on Kinect, except the precision rotation and stuff, which seems of very niche interest to me.

I couldn't disagree more. Not only have I already seen more exciting stuff using a camera that basically emulated the Move's functionality with a glowing aball, but the Move is a 3D pointer with loads more precision, buttons and what not. It covers quite a different set of functions, and that allows for very different experiences. For all the cool stuff you can do with Kinect, very little is actually practical and useable in anything. Whereas with a half decent Move controller I could think of a lot of neat functionality for existing games right off the bat, let alone new ones.

 

[patsu]

Or, as I'm sure Arwin will point out, this will be a very deliberate attempt by Sony to target the millions of PC geeks in an effort to meet their Move sales targets.

If the geeks can create something popular or unique, they may be signed up by Sony for the PS3... Like Jenova Chen's flOw ! In general, I don't see that thing take off on the PC side because of mouse and touch screen, except for specialized apps. It was marketed poorly too.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I've just thought though, actually there is a chance of Move doing well - in combination with Kinect! It's what we've all been wanting, and the PC will offer the chance to integrate Move's perfect full-dimensions tracking with Kinect's full body tracking. The ultimate Jedi game would have a Move lightsabre and Kinect hand tracking for force powers. In this respect Move might be able to piggyback nicely of Kinect's PC adoption.

This is pretty much the only attraction I could see for something like this. There's already been quite a few 3D pointing and manipulation systems introduced on PC all with limited appeal outside of a corporate boardroom.

I myself have owned 2 devices, and while novel, the novelty quickly wears off. In fact I have one in the living room for use with the HTPC. I originally got it for the purposes of free air navigation in Windows. But I find that I rarely if ever used the 3D air navigation aspect and generally use it on the coffee table (it can also function as a 2D mouse) or use an infrared remote. It says something that I'm far more excited about Logitechs upcoming mouse that can navigate accurately over cloth and carpets (so I can use it directly on my sofa).

But, back to your particular point. Combined with Kinect, this might offer some interesting experiences. Kinect's 3D depth camera should also allow for Move to have 100% accurate 3D positioning (no drift as the depth camera should be able to maintain mm accuracy of location at all times) almost all the time.

Combining accurate 3D player tracking with an accurate 3D peripheral should be interesting. Without Kinect however, I just don't see the attraction.

At most it's just a novelty compared to a traditional 2D mouse for most games. For an FPS for example it'll be at a very serious disadvantage compared to a high precision 2D mouse. Unlike consoles it isn't competing with a control device which even at highest sensitivity settings features extremely slow and deliberate movements (to a PC twitch FPS player).

I really can't think of any reason a PC gamer would pick one up until Sony manages to release something that makes it attractive on PC. Perhaps a Star Wars light saber game. Or a sports game. But when you start getting into those genres, they really are far better suited to consoles.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

I myself have owned 2 devices, and while novel, the novelty quickly wears off. In fact I have one in the living room for use with the HTPC. I originally got it for the purposes of free air navigation in Windows. But I find that I rarely if ever used the 3D air navigation aspect and generally use it on the coffee table (it can also function as a 2D mouse) or use an infrared remote. It says something that I'm far more excited about Logitechs upcoming mouse that can navigate accurately over cloth and carpets (so I can use it directly on my sofa).

Actually, 2D navigation is exactly what Move needs. E.g., drawing on coffee table top as opposed to in the air. The former is more friendly. THQ's mini-pad for Wii did rather well. From the flat tabletop, the user can rise above the surface to draw 3D objects if necessary. Most of the time 2D is sufficient, and easier.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Actually, 2D navigation is exactly what Move needs. E.g., drawing on coffee table top as opposed to in the air. The former is more friendly. THQ's mini-pad for Wii did rather well. From the flat tabletop, the user can rise above the surface to draw 3D objects if necessary. Most of the time 2D is sufficient, and easier.

If they can somehow make it somewhat accurate as a "pen" on a 2D surface that might have some attraction when combined with other things it can do. Kinect may be able to help with that. But there's already relatively cheap pen and tablet active digitizers on PC that will always be able to do a better job with sketching/inking.

Now what might be fun is turning it into a big crayon/paintbrush and using your living room floor as the drawing surface. Perhaps have a 3ft stick "extender" so you can stand up and draw on your floor.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

Once that general 2D tracking capability is enhanced by backend services, it should shine. It may appear superfluous or useless on PC, the real deal is Sony bringing it to PS3 to augment their UI, games or media services.

Cheap tablets would work on PS3 too as long as said services don't require 3D.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I couldn't disagree more. Not only have I already seen more exciting stuff using a camera that basically emulated the Move's functionality with a glowing aball, but the Move is a 3D pointer with loads more precision, buttons and what not. It covers quite a different set of functions, and that allows for very different experiences. For all the cool stuff you can do with Kinect, very little is actually practical and useable in anything. Whereas with a half decent Move controller I could think of a lot of neat functionality for existing games right off the bat, let alone new ones.

I didn't say Move support wouldn't be good. I said I don't imaging it getting much attention. Do you think the homebrew scene is awash with excitement at the prospect of working with Move? Maybe they are, but I can't imagine so. Move is dull and prosaic, even if eminently practical and functional.

 

[patsu]

I agree !

They'd need to wrap the cross-platform Move SDK with a business and marketing concept. e.g., roping it as part of the Playstation Suite SDK: Touchscreen on NGP/cellphones, mouse-n-keyboard on PC, Move on PS3. Slap the Playstation Store on top (a la Apple's AppStore) to sell your creation... say developed with PhyreEngine or their HTML5 framework. Then it may get some attention.

The Move SDK server alone ? Not so much... [size=-2]me think[/size]

 

[Prophecy2k]

I didn't say Move support wouldn't be good. I said I don't imaging it getting much attention. Do you think the homebrew scene is awash with excitement at the prospect of working with Move? Maybe they are, but I can't imagine so. Move is dull and prosaic, even if eminently practical and functional.

Are you really grouping the entire homebrew community on PC, of thousands or maybe even millions of PC nerds into a single category of people that all, by some stroke of serendipity share the same opinion as you?!

Are you really trying to speak for the entire PC homebrew community about their receptiveness to an open source Sony MOVE platform, based entirely on your own personal opinion of the device?!?... I've read it all on this forum now....

I have lots of hacker friends that were super excited to hear that Sony might be bringing them PC MOVE functionality for free. Many of them claim they'd have tried to hack the device themselves but didn't have the time or were waiting for "someone else to do it".... now that "someone else" is Sony themselves they're over the moon.

Anecdotal evidence, of course... but much better than "The entire homebrew scene won't be interested in MOVE because I think it's dull"

There's nothing saying that the homebrew guys aren't even excited by both MOVE and Kinect. I don't really understand why many people on this forum seem to speak as though the existence of Kinect actually takes away from the functionality of MOVE. They're two separate devices that are both impressive in their own right.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Really though the thing is, the Move doesn't exactly bring much new to the PC. There's already 3D air controllers. It's quite possible the Move will be more accurate similar to how gaming mice are more precise than your average el-cheapo mouse.

But in the end, it's still the same situation. There's no excitement in the PC space for a 3D free air controller device on its own as we've had those for over a decade now in one form or another. The benefits of potentially more precise controls or auto calibration in combination with a camera doesn't really change expectations all that much.

As Shifty mentioned that doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad product, but it's not something that's going to generate even a fraction of the interest that Kinect did by bring capabilities to the homebrew scene at a cost and complexity that was far lower than was required in the past for many of the same capabilities as well as introducting many things that had been virtually impossible.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

I have lots of hacker friends that were super excited to hear that Sony might be bringing them PC MOVE functionality for free. Many of them claim they'd have tried to hack the device themselves but didn't have the time or were waiting for "someone else to do it".... now that "someone else" is Sony themselves they're over the moon.

What do they want to use Move for ?

Really though the thing is, the Move doesn't exactly bring much new to the PC. There's already 3D air controllers. It's quite possible the Move will be more accurate similar to how gaming mice are more precise than your average el-cheapo mouse.

...

Which 3D air controllers are you referring to ?

 

[betan]

PC had 2.5D cameras for what five-six years now?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Are you really grouping the entire homebrew community on PC, of thousands or maybe even millions of PC nerds into a single category of people that all, by some stroke of serendipity share the same opinion as you?!

No, because my opinion isn't Move isn't worth trying. My opinion of the Homebrew community is based on what's proving popular at the moment, because that's how human civilizations work. Camera based tracking has been around for years, but YouTube vids of that sort of thing haven't had anything like the level of interest as Kinect vids achieving the same thing. Kinect has popularised camera-based interface mechanic exploration for the masses. Given that it's also extending camera interfaces with depth tracking and providing whole new experiences, it is in part very deserving of the level of interest it is receiving.

Anecdotal evidence, of course... but much better than "The entire homebrew scene won't be interested in MOVE because I think it's dull"

You know, how's about you read my initial post on the subject to see what I think about Move and its place on PC, and why I question if the homebrew scene, often keen to follow the current trends because that's the way people are, is going to do much with it?

What do your friends want to do with Move that makes Move support so valuable, that it isn't old hat and been done by Wii or cameras, or wouldn't be more novel and interesting if done controllerless with Kinect?