The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Arwin]

What do your friends want to do with Move that makes Move support so valuable, that it isn't old hat and been done by Wii or cameras, or wouldn't be more novel and interesting if done controllerless with Kinect?

The Wii doesn't have x/y/z in space, and it doesn't do AR. Some of the stuff done on Kinect on PC would work much better with Move, like the light-sabre stuff, the draw in 3D stuff, etc. (it's a pretty long list!) Everything that involves basically a '3D-mouse' is cool and interesting to me. Multi-touch and more importantly 3D multitouch with rotational input to boot would also be neat. I can make a long, long list of things that I would love to do or see done with Move, and a crucial difference for me would be that most of that would also be actually useable day to day. And I'm sure there could be new things as well.

And yes, there are a few more recent devices that have similar capabilities as the Move, but the Move has already sold millions. Any competition is probably lucky to have hit 100.000.

EDIT: this one here comes in the region of some of the kind of experiments that you could see. It just scratches the surface and uses a webcam with a sixaxis with light/visual detection, though this particular one scratches a lot of surfaces. But I think this is the type of thing you need to see after you've watched some Kinect stuff, to see the difference in smoothness.

 

[patsu]

PC had 2.5D cameras for what five-six years now?

Does the Move SDK include extensive camera analysis API... Like OpenCV ? If so, would be great to bring these PC software to PS3. KungFu Live is great.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Which 3D air controllers are you referring to ?

If we're referring to official devices you have everything from the Logitech MX Air to the Gyration line of 3D air mice (they have a few models) to open source software to create your own 3D air controllers (http://www.smartertechnology.com/c/...3D-inAir-Mice-Proliferating-into-Open-Source/ ). There's even a guy that created a 3D air mouse that you wear as a ring.

For the homebrew scene, the Wii controller has been useable for a while.

I'm not sure what Move will bring to the homebrew scene that all these other devices haven't for years and years now other than perhaps more accuracy and maybe better absolute positioning when combined with a camera (that big glowy ball).

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

It doesn't have to always bring something new. It should bring existing goodies to Move, and PS3 (if Sony likes the results). I believe that's the intention.

I tried an earlier edition of Logitech AirMouse. I don't think it does absolute positioning. Not sure if it will loose accuracy if swung quickly over time. Regardless, if they work similarly, then they can be combined to form a coherent market. There are some motion sensing gaming PC devices more similar to Move.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not sure what Move will bring to the homebrew scene that all these other devices haven't for years and years now other than perhaps more accuracy and maybe better absolute positioning when combined with a camera (that big glowy ball).

That's my thinking too. I've already said what great things I think Move can provide in the various motion controller threads, and what it does is great. But it's not new enough or differentiated enough to open new boundaries in homebrew IMO, especially when the boundaries are what people want to invest their time in. eg. Linux pn PS3 had huge potential. Open access to Cell could have seen some amazing explorations into maths and data heavy tasks. I repeated I wanted to see someone write a specific audio synthesiser for it. But PS3's Linux homebrew got nowhere because no-one was excited enough to do anything with it. Move would be very valuable as a tool for 3D modelling or accurate spacial interfacing. However, for general AR exploration and 3D spacial navigation, if you don't need full rotation, Kinect offers the same functionality in a more trendy package. Why use Move as a pointer in Windows Media Centre when you can use your arm, grabbing at icons or just reaching forwards to virtually press them?

Once this thing is released we'll actually see what happened, and if the Move thread gets as many YouTubed experiements in it as Kinect's thread has, or if my cynicism is justified and not a lot happens with it.

 

[patsu]

It will probably happen in stages, if at all. There are a few open source AR and motion sensing toolkits. It should not be difficult to add Move support to these SDKs first (Wiimote, Kinect and PSEye support have been added). The existing demoes and apps will work automatically. The creators don't have to target Move specifically. It can be about Move fitting into existing PC frameworks… and then port the whole experience back to PS3 if worthwhile.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It doesn't have to always bring something new. It should bring existing goodies to Move, and PS3 (if Sony likes the results). I believe that's the intention.

I tried an earlier edition of Logitech AirMouse. I don't think it does absolute positioning. Not sure if it will loose accuracy if swung quickly over time. Regardless, if they work similarly, then they can be combined to form a coherent market. There are some motion sensing gaming PC devices more similar to Move.

The Logitech MX Air doesn't have absolute positioning on it's own, but combined with Kinect it should be absolutely trivial to add something like that by the homebrew folks. Only, there's absolutely zero interest in doing anything like that as far as I'm aware. Not that I've really spent a lot of time looking mind you.

Or to put it another way if there was interest in a 3D air device with absolute positioning capabilities beyond what is available with the Wiimote, someone would have done it by now and there'd be a lot of stuff out there featuring it. But there isn't.

Perhaps Move will stir up interest in that area, but I just don't see it happening. At least not if it's just Move by itself. Like Shifty however I do see some intriguing possibilities if someone can successfully mate Kinect's full body skeleton tracking with the finer hand controls that Move would allow.

That's where PC can be the great "What If?" machine. Since we'll probably never see Move + Kinect controls used simuntaneously on console except perhaps in PS3 homebrew on a hacked console.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

The Logitech MX Air doesn't have absolute positioning on it's own, but combined with Kinect it should be absolutely trivial to add something like that by the homebrew folks. Only, there's absolutely zero interest in doing anything like that as far as I'm aware. Not that I've really spent a lot of time looking mind you.

…

That's partly because Kinect advocate no controller. ^_^

Perhaps Move will stir up interest in that area, but I just don't see it happening. At least not if it's just Move by itself. Like Shifty however I do see some intriguing possibilities if someone can successfully mate Kinect's full body skeleton tracking with the finer hand controls that Move would allow.

…

Precise writing/drawing in the air or a surface would be an example of absolute positioning + motion tracking. You should be able to find quite a few YouTube videos on Wiimote drawing. and _may be_ writing. The difference is how well the software and controller track the "pen" movement, and whether more props are needed. You don't need Kinect for that (It can't help here). ^_^

Basically, all the Wiimote projects out there should be doable on the Move, but with better precision. Existing 2D camera tracking projects are also possible.

Whether people will do it ? It depends on what Sony has in mind with this Move Server project.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And that's the point, there's nothing Move brings except possibly greater accuracy to the homebrew folks who have had access to multiple other systems. Which is why some of us just don't see why there will suddenly be an upsurge in interest of a 3D air controller just because Sony have decided to support the PC with Move.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

And that's the point, there's nothing Move brings except possibly greater accuracy to the homebrew folks who have had access to multiple other systems. Which is why some of us just don't see why there will suddenly be an upsurge in interest of a 3D air controller just because Sony have decided to support the PC with Move.

It depends on the needs. It means adding Move support may be trivial for these apps or frameworks. e.g., There were tons of webcams before and after PSEye. OpenCV and other frameworks added PSEye support nonetheless. The field of motion control and 2D camera tracking is still rather young. People in the space may be able to do quite a few things with Move, given that the existing devices still have shortfalls (e.g., not precise enough for some apps).

It should be possible to incent people to work on Move -- if Sony wants to. They didn't care enough about the adoption of PS3 Linux. Move is tied to gaming, which may be more relevant to SCEA.

EDIT: I also don't think they need an upsurge in interest. It may take a few calendar months to port stuff over slowly and quietly.

 

[Arwin]

I'm just going to wait until this comes out (that Sony gets this out in the first place, and that we get it out soon enough to matter is the only thing I'm skeptical about). After that, I'm just going to wait and see that I was right.

 

[Prophecy2k]

The Logitech MX Air doesn't have absolute positioning on it's own, but combined with Kinect it should be absolutely trivial to add something like that by the homebrew folks. Only, there's absolutely zero interest in doing anything like that as far as I'm aware. Not that I've really spent a lot of time looking mind you.

Maybe that's because a Logictech MX Air cost around £70 (i know because i own one). Coupled with a £120-£130 Kinect sensor, and that's a lot of money to shell out just to do what a £99 Move and PSEye will do for you for considerably cheaper (you also swap full body 3D tracking for simple 2D, granted).

Also, my pals who are excited about this are more excited about the prospect of it being Sony who is actively pushing it rather than an external hacking effort by a couple or so individuals. Both i and they surmise that Sony could and might very well intend to see some the cool and interesting implimentations that might come out of this and bring those ideas over into some of their PS3 console games.

IMHO, even if this effort by Sony doesn't excite as many people as Kincet might, it'll be the first open and 'Official Solution' for a closed platform's peripheral of it's kind. Neither Nintendo with the Wii-mote nor MS with Kinect (XNA still doesn't support Kinect afaik) have provided academics or casual software devs with an officially supported framework like this. If you personally don't see this as something that would excite the masses, it's perfectly irrevelevant to the fact that there most definitely will be many out there that will be eager to make use of a framework and technology like this for many different applications.

Just because "it's not as exciting as Kinect" does that really mean Sony should just give up and not bother?!?...

 

[Prophecy2k]

I'm just going to wait until this comes out (that Sony gets this out in the first place, and that we get it out soon enough to matter is the only thing I'm skeptical about). After that, I'm just going to wait and see that I was right.

and i'll be right there next to you to cheer you on ;-)

 

[hoho]

It says something that I'm far more excited about Logitechs upcoming mouse that can navigate accurately over cloth and carpets (so I can use it directly on my sofa).

How much accuaricy do you need? For a few years I played online FPS and RTS games at relatively highish levels while using cheap (<10$) optical mouse that was moved around on the textile-covered armrest of my chair. Worked awesomely. Though I guess it could be that it wouldn't work with lasers and manufacturers need to rediscover led mice.

 

[patsu]

How much accuaricy do you need?

Depends on the app. Simple point and click plus dragging should be ok.

You can also try writing and drawing with an air mouse. See if you can connect the letters properly and lines as desired.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

How much accuaricy do you need? For a few years I played online FPS and RTS games at relatively highish levels while using cheap (<10$) optical mouse that was moved around on the textile-covered armrest of my chair. Worked awesomely. Though I guess it could be that it wouldn't work with lasers and manufacturers need to rediscover led mice.

There's one very important and in afterthought very obvious "innovation" with that mouse. It comes with a scratch resistent covering to prevent hair, dust, lint, or anything else from getting into the recess that the light and camera sensor goes through. Thus prevent that extremely irritating syndrome where the pointer will start moving eratically until you can remove whatever debris got in there.

As well as increaseing it's ability to deal with a much more variable surface.

That first one though is one of those things that now that they are doing it, I'm sitting here wonder why noone else has thought of doing it up until now.

Regards,
SB

 

[corduroygt]

How did everyone miss this, enter the Kinect clones:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/asus-wavi-xtion-motion-sensing-control-system-demoed-at-ces/

 

[patsu]

DICE 2011: Sony's Dr. Richard Marks is joined by Beverly Harrison to discuss the evolution of user interfaces and the importance of sticking to good game design.:
http://www.gamespot.com/events/dice2011/story.html?sid=6298362

Takeaway: Both Intel and SCEA readily admit that these new and growing motion-based user interfaces are still very much in a nascent stage. As such, it's important to let as many people as possible get in on the tinkering process to maximize creativity and help motion controllers achieve their potential.

 

[Barso]

As long as the PS3 is turning a profit then it's all good for Sony.
I know kinect is doing well but how many are being used,
I bought one last month and it's been used about twice. I wish I bought move instead to be honest.
I admit I was gullible and should have waited until it had a library of games I was interested in.
But I feel that microsofts tight lips at the moment could be the sleeping lion approach for an explosive GDC and E3.

 

[Arwin]

Well, I just heard on Weekend Confirmed (and 8-4 Play) that Double Fine is making a sesame street Kinect game for September or something like that.