The LittleBigPlanet pre-release Saga

[Arwin]

Actually, there was a blog somewhere of someone in the beta who had a 7 year old son, who to his surprise was interested more than anything in the create part, was planning his vehicles, obstacles, etc. I think it's precisely 7 year olds and up who are being underestimated here - they learn super fast, have no frame of reference to tools they might be missing, etc. And will get an enormous kick out of putting a rocket on a random object, for instance, even more so than some of us kids already. It doesn't matter that things don't always go as planned - these kids will be amazed by whatever happens, as long as something happens! And imagine that they can play in this sandbox with three other friends, brothers, sisters ... I'm jealous, wish I was a kid again! The kids in our street would have been all over this and we'd all be making things together and letting each other play stuff just like we did with lego and playmobile.

 

[Kittonwy]

It's a hard game to score. On the one hand, what it's doing is incredible and puts it head and shoulders above all the other titles out there. On the other hand, it is buggy and awkward. Even if they fix the disappearing geometry when collisions get too much, the jump mechanic with the automatic z-depth shift creates all sorts of problems. eg. The Metal Gear Shadow Moses level. The left to get the card has a central plank moving up and down, and ledges front and back of this. I got stuck on the front ledge. I couldn't just jump down onto the lift. I had to time it right to jump so the auto-position would place me on the plank, and it took an age! And then on the top, I had the same trouble. So I probably spent some five minutes on the same bit of screen jumping and getting nowhere. These issues can probably be addressed during design, but if you measure the game by what people are playing, and what gets published, then they'll plague the game. The actual jumping seems a bit unresponive at times too, which doesn't help.

As their prelude to the review quoted for SEUCK, LBP probably defies conventional rating. It's different things to different people. For many people the creation is fabulous. For others, thinking the widest possible audience, it's too complicated. I can't see many 8 year olds creating something that matches their vision. I expect a lot will get frustrated with the way edits affect stuff already created and give up trying. The game is incredibly beautiful, incredibly fun and happy, but also frustrating and awkward. For someone looking for the ultimate platformer, LBP isn't a 10.

Of course, every game has faults, and in that respect, going by the gaming press's standards instead of my standards, LBP should be a 10. It combines innovation and a whole new world of game dynamic, slapping an overpowered and unstable rocket-booster onto Gaming's behind and jetting it forwards.

You're basically faulting the game for the level design by someone other than the developers themselves. In the shadow moses level there just wasn't adequate camera work, making things harder than it really should have been. As for bugs, it was a beta, on the other hand GTAIV got a 10 and the retail product was far from perfect. LBP is no less genre defining than GTAIV or HALO3, possibly much more because of what can be done with it which has already been shown, it's a true sandbox experience.

 

[goonergaz]

My 8yo son loves LBP - he was going on and on about it the whole time we had it, BUT not to play the levels...oh no!

He was more interested in making stuff! Levels, cars and monsters - all his own design (which he'd drawn out first) and all by himself! Then playing around - seeing what can be done and what happens when you change this or try that.

This is Lego for the next generation of kids...so Eurogamer - what is your problem!?

Game of the year? More like game of forever!

 

[obonicus]

You're complaining because of a 9/10? Wonders will never cease.

This is something that's already been discussed extensively, but the problem is that Eurogamer gives 10/10 to games like GTAIV, and then hides under some sort of relativistic 'well, don't pay attention to the scores, they don't really say how games compare, different reviewers and all that' which is pure nonsense.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

I think Eurogamer reviewer did not let a kid play with it and watch ! Kids are unpredictable and as far as I know my niece, they love to create their own little worlds where anything can happen and monsters can be slain with a pitchfork !. Have people forgotten ho they used to play Home in an empty box??

and, of course, reviews fell to a new low when Halo3 and GTA4 were awarded 10s. We cannot recover from that as that just flawed the whole review score system.

 

[deepbrown]

My 8yo son loves LBP - he was going on and on about it the whole time we had it, BUT not to play the levels...oh no!

He was more interested in making stuff! Levels, cars and monsters - all his own design (which he'd drawn out first) and all by himself! Then playing around - seeing what can be done and what happens when you change this or try that.

This is Lego for the next generation of kids...so Eurogamer - what is your problem!?

Game of the year? More like game of forever!

How amazing would it be to get children to design things by paper, and their reward seeing it be made on screen.

We used to do this in school. Design things and then attepmt to create them in Paint etc. LBP in schools could be huge...and benificial. Teachers could now have a tool for lessons. (I already saw a photosynthesis demonstration in the LBP Beta.)

 

[goonergaz]

How amazing would it be to get children to design things by paper, and their reward seeing it be made on screen.

We used to do this in school. Design things and then attepmt to create them in Paint etc. LBP in schools could be huge...and benificial. Teachers could now have a tool for lessons. (I already saw a photosynthesis demonstration in the LBP Beta.)

You know you have a VERY valid point...and what you'd be doing it teaching kids how to use computers, gfx packages and mechanical design all at the same time, as well as actual desgin and planning (etc).

Educationally this could be used easilly IMHO, in fact I was telling my wife how I'd let the kids play this with far fewer restrictions due to the fact it's more of a design/creative education thing that could get them into the games industry (from a logical, creative and level design POV)...sort of first steps.

 

[Antan]

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/919/919111p1.html

9.5

 

[Gradthrawn]

GT LBP TGS Demo Part 2

Hideo and someone from Square (couldn't make out his name) come on stage with Snake and Sephiroth Sackboy figures. No subs or translation.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For 7-8 years old, it's best to customize a small part of an existing level or template. If they start from scratch, then the level would be pretty simple.

I wasn't thinking a whole level, just creations, like they might in Lego. But I take back what I said. The targets a 7/8yo will have will be readily covered with the simple interface. The trickier stuff, learning how to work thin planes into thick ones and bind mechanics, will be beyond most of them, most users in general probably, and those that really want that stuff working will figure it out.

The BETA. All the issues in the Beta have been reported to MM. They are working on a launch patch.

Sure, but I don't think the jump mechanic issues can be addressed. The automatic plane switching requires a priority system that determines whether a player meant to go up, down, in or out, given choices. As it is, the game prioritises up, so that jumping down when there's an alternative up route means you don't go anywhere. I'm not sure if that can actually be fixed. Perhaps the stick will give enough clues? I was pushing up and jumping wanting to move to the back plane, and down and jumping to switch to the front plane, even though that didn't make a difference. From what I've heard of the game so far though, this mechanic is still the same, and in a review of the game you can't ignore a fault in the expectation that it might get patched!

LBP in schools could be huge...and benificial. Teachers could now have a tool for lessons. (I already saw a photosynthesis demonstration in the LBP Beta.)

LBP in schools could be great but, at least in the UK, the infrastructure isn't there at all, partly due to Sony's PS3 design choices. Every classroom has an interactive whiteboard touch-sensitive projector screen with a projector, maybe up to 1280x1024 resolution, of which there's no suitable PS3 output to projector input to display anything. If PS3 had VGA out and letterboxed 1280 support, you'd only need the PS3.

Still, I learnt recently that a girl I give private tuition two has a PS3, so I'll have a go at incorporating some LBP stuff into our learning. It's not really a game, but it's educational, afterall...

 

[patsu]

Actually, there was a blog somewhere of someone in the beta who had a 7 year old son, who to his surprise was interested more than anything in the create part, was planning his vehicles, obstacles, etc. I think it's precisely 7 year olds and up who are being underestimated here - they learn super fast, have no frame of reference to tools they might be missing, etc. And will get an enormous kick out of putting a rocket on a random object, for instance, even more so than some of us kids already. It doesn't matter that things don't always go as planned - these kids will be amazed by whatever happens, as long as something happens! And imagine that they can play in this sandbox with three other friends, brothers, sisters ... I'm jealous, wish I was a kid again! The kids in our street would have been all over this and we'd all be making things together and letting each other play stuff just like we did with lego and playmobile.

The link is inside this post: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1224878&postcount=1225

To be fair, Shifty mentioned _not many_ 8 year olds will be able to create levels _close to their creative visions_ which is technically true. But in practise, I believe children will adjust their imaginations as they play along. Their levels will be simple, but they will still have loads of fun. (EDIT: Okay, Shifty mentioned something similar in his latest post).

Eurogamer's complain is directed at the mechanical details of the tools. The reviewer is simply saying it's not as easy as he expected to create the level he wanted. A "traditional" game like GTA4 would presumably have more familiar and polished mechanics (Thus, avoided criticisms in this area). In addition, LBP is also different from other platformers that gamers loved over the years. All these are valid input, but I also think Eurogamer missed the big picture.

There was no mention of co-op game play which for me is the real gem in the game. He also could not see the impact of the game for casual gamers (kinda like how they missed super-rub-a-dub too). You don't need a 100% easy to use AutoCAD tool, or a sophisticated level for people to enjoy LittleBigPlanet. No one was here before, so the reviewer had to imagine (in this case, extreme) standards to measure the game against.

In any case, I hope these 9.x reviews drive MM to incorporate the camera tool for LBP. They also need to do more ground work to tie the game with casual gamers.

 

[Kittonwy]

If there's horizontal separation:

---
---

Even if they're in different planes you'll make the automatic switch, when there's overlap, that's when there's an issue, my solution is always that you should do separate planes only if the two platforms would bump into each other otherwise, most of the time it's not necessary to separate platforms by planes, most of the time the automatic plane switching works well as long as you design with it in mind.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There was no mention of co-op game play which for me is the real gem in the game.

The reviewer did cover it. Bottom of the first page :

You'll also want to return to play as much of the game as you can in multiplayer...the camera scales competently for four players on a single machine, and it's played this way that LittleBigPlanet is at its absolute best: an irresistible, riotous, social and totally accessible entertainment.

You don't need a 100% easy to use AutoCAD tool, or a sophisticated level for people to enjoy LittleBigPlanet. No one was here before, so the reviewer had to imagine (in this case, extreme) standards to measure the game against.

I think the review is tainted with memories of old expectations. You can't create a big gallery to show off your photos for example. You can't readily create a sort of LBP webspace. Locking out user content means creations have to use the ingame tools, which means creating game levels and contraptions. The scope of creativity has been reduced from what was first shown, and viewing creation from that original premise - anyone can come in and just do their thing - it does take a knock. Which is unfair, as based on what everyone else is doing, it's a huge step forwards. It's only the expectations I think that create a little disappointment.

I have to say the creation side has niggled me a fair bit. The lack of fast undo, sometimes having to wait ten seconds or more for an action to undo, or saving your level at different points so I can reload whichever version I want, slows down the process considerably versus using a paint package or such. The camera during editing was a real nuisance, being unable to adjust where you looking when in draw mode. If I was zoomed out to find a position and then wanted to zoom in to add detail, I couldn't. I had to come out of the tool, fly up and zoom in, and then edit again. LBP offers the depth and complexity of a graphics application, but with some features that inconvenience the process. For mainstream folk who don't do much creation, it's fine. For those used to creative software, the sort of dedicated 'pros' who will be turning out the high calibre levels, I think a few little changes would be very beneficial and go down very nicely. Mouse support with a zoom wheel would be a good start!

You're basically faulting the game for the level design by someone other than the developers themselves.

That's true, but user created levels are a huge part of the play experience. According to the Eurogamer review, there are something like 20 levels, down from the 50 being talked about earlier. The on-disc content is going to be short. The value of the game is going to come from playing/viewing user-created stuff. If that stuff has platforming problems and 'bugs', even if the engine is capable of better, it's going to lead to a frustrating game experience.

If there's horizontal separation:

---
---

Even if they're in different planes you'll make the automatic switch, when there's overlap, that's when there's an issue, my solution is always that you should do separate planes only if the two platforms would bump into each other otherwise, most of the time it's not necessary to separate platforms by planes, most of the time the automatic plane switching works well as long as you design with it in mind.

You need to subdivide planes to accomodate thin-plane features, which seems to me almost essential for sophisticated levels. And again, relying on the creators to design content with play-mechanics in mind is asking a lot. This sort of design is the niggling detail level, the level that developers spend boring hours refining. You average Joe isn't going to spend time on polish when it isn't fun. It's very hard to find that much attention to detail on free content. I imagine the content that reaches that standard in LBP will either come from professionals playing in their spare time, or those adding to their portfolio looking for a job in the industry. I expect, without any change in the core game mechanics by MM, of the levels I will download and play, the vast majority with level-changing jumps will have issues.

 

[RobertR1]

That's true, but user created levels are a huge part of the play experience. According to the Eurogamer review, there are something like 20 levels, down from the 50 being talked about earlier. The on-disc content is going to be short. The value of the game is going to come from playing/viewing user-created stuff. If that stuff has platforming problems and 'bugs', even if the engine is capable of better, it's going to lead to a frustrating game experience.

This is exactly why I'll pick the game up in spring. 20 something levels isn't much for SP especially when the first few are likely very easy and there to teach you the gameplay and controls. The user created content will be a major hit and miss for a while until things settle down. Then the great ones will seperate themselves from the rest and likely MM will have a patch or two out that addresses certain wants.

 

[patsu]

The reviewer did cover it. Bottom of the first page :

Ah cool ! As long as they acknowledged it, I'm fine.

I think the review is tainted with memories of old expectations. You can't create a big gallery to show off your photos for example. You can't readily create a sort of LBP webspace. Locking out user content means creations have to use the ingame tools, which means creating game levels and contraptions. The scope of creativity has been reduced from what was first shown, and viewing creation from that original premise - anyone can come in and just do their thing - it does take a knock. Which is unfair, as based on what everyone else is doing, it's a huge step forwards. It's only the expectations I think that create a little disappointment.

What did they reduce from "first shown" ? The only restrictions are we cannot use existing media, and PS Eye support is limited in the beta. They never did promise LBP webspace. That idea came from PS Home and perhaps R2.

I have to say the creation side has niggled me a fair bit. The lack of fast undo, sometimes having to wait ten seconds or more for an action to undo, or saving your level at different points so I can reload whichever version I want, slows down the process considerably versus using a paint package or such. The camera during editing was a real nuisance, being unable to adjust where you looking when in draw mode. If I was zoomed out to find a position and then wanted to zoom in to add detail, I couldn't. I had to come out of the tool, fly up and zoom in, and then edit again. LBP offers the depth and complexity of a graphics application, but with some features that inconvenience the process. For mainstream folk who don't do much creation, it's fine. For those used to creative software, the sort of dedicated 'pros' who will be turning out the high calibre levels, I think a few little changes would be very beneficial and go down very nicely. Mouse support with a zoom wheel would be a good start!

Yeah well, using the controller is already a step back for me. Slow undo is unfortunate. Compared to other games, LBP is still leagues ahead. No one else was here before.
PS Eye input, support for the new touchpad and mouse/tablet are what I'm hoping for.

That's true, but user created levels are a huge part of the play experience. According to the Eurogamer review, there are something like 20 levels, down from the 50 being talked about earlier. The on-disc content is going to be short. The value of the game is going to come from playing/viewing user-created stuff. If that stuff has platforming problems and 'bugs', even if the engine is capable of better, it's going to lead to a frustrating game experience.

... or DLCs (and the co-op authoring patch). Will have to wait to see how they intend to support those (ad supported or user paid or free).

 

[Cornsnake]

That's 20 levels, with each 3 sublevels and a bonus level. So the beta had just 1 level.

 

[patsu]

Oh ok, no wonder I heard 60 "levels".

 

[RobertR1]

That's 20 levels, with each 3 sublevels and a bonus level. So the beta had just 1 level.

oh ok. So like Super Mario Galaxy? you get 20 worlds with 3 levels per? If so, that's awesome and now a holiday buy. Sackboy is a cute bastard and hard to resist!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What did they reduce from "first shown" ? The only restrictions are we cannot use existing media...They never did promise LBP webspace.

They never promised anything. But Mark Healey and Alex Evans talked about the possibilities, with people being able to just create themselves a 'homepage' or whatever. That doesn't mean weblinks, just more of a blogspot. The lack of user content means any homepage would be an assemblage of in-game assets, making them much of a like and pretty redundant ("like blogs," do I hear you say? ). IMO the original concept was far more open.

That's 20 levels, with each 3 sublevels and a bonus level. So the beta had just 1 level.

Are you sure of that? That'd make more sense, but the way it was described...

The Tudor gardens of Britain; the African savannah; a haunted Tim Burton wedding in some spooky alternative South America; and on through Mexican badlands, American cities, mystical interludes in Japan and India, and a devious parody of a Siberian villain's lair. The conceit is that every themed stop on the way is curated by a creator, a king or magician who sets the scene and the challenges, the way players are later invited to themselves.

It sounds like each of these is a territory, each territory has levels and a curator, and the Beta levels seemed to span an entire territory with the King telling us to jump on a ship and visit the next curator. That'd be 8 territories and 3 levels each, 18 levels, which gels with the articles remark on there being 20 levels. The IGN review calls the three English Garden levels 'levels' and not 'sublevels'.

I see Eurogamer and IGN have hit on issues raised here, like the random tags. I hope the game is properly progressed. I feel confident it will be.

 

[betan]

Random tagging, while another questionable decision, is not really something to worry about.
It will work much better with increased number of users.

At worst, they can always add manual tagging.

I do hope they improve searching though.