The LittleBigPlanet pre-release Saga

[patsu]

Yes, the player may get into a bad situation if the level is not designed or tested properly.

Would be cool to have a distributed snapshot of a 4P co-op game, but it may not be easy. As it stands today, they should fix the cross-region lag first.

 

[deepbrown]

They should add a way to reset the state of your level after you die. Now your sometimes unable to finish a level because the changes that happened before you died are still in place, creating a dead end.

That's the creators fault.

 

[deepbrown]

I've spent considerable time with it today creating a level, an attempt at a multiplayer racer in flying vehicles around a track, and it's been an interesting, fun, yet frustrating job at times. The tools are pretty awkward - very good compared to the usual, and having created a physics editor myself (3D) I understand the difficulties. But the creation of collision geometry posses problems, it appears. You can't edit a mesh once it has been bound to others. This means any design work has to be exact before assembly, you you face a reconstruction rigmarole. Worse than that, you can delete portions of an object drawing with the Triangle button, and yet leave the collision geometry behind. I had a large glass cylinder attached to a background pillar, and chopping off the bottom of it worked in appearance but didn't remove the collision border, and that scuppered placement of objects. I had to delete the whole cylinder and reconstruct. Building nice looking models that aren't a messy hodgepodge of sticking out pieces also requires good forethought. There's a lot of 'best practice' needed to avoid holes, divots, unsightly corners etc. Multiplayer creation could prove very tricky. You'd want everyone to be up to the same standard. A top-tier creator seeing a 'noob' slapping together bits of different width leaving holes in his work might be very annoying!

There's a cap on object complexity that has bit me in the butt. My racecourse is a simple figure-of-8. The curves have to be smoothed out or the vehicles bounce all over the shop. I had a huge glass block and chopped out two cylinders. I then manually tripled the vectex count inside the curves to smooth them out, to something still a bit bumpy but acceptible(ish). In doing this I hit the object complexity limit. This then added an annoying message any time I created an object as the default starting place of placement was on my complex object. And it also means I can't adapt my map to add some starting gates, as I've evolved the design of the game. If the was a tool to slice the object in half, creating two simpler objects, that'd be a problem solved, and maybe one will feature in the final game, but you can't take a little cube and chop out a path to separate two sides, which means that limit is pretty rough. What I should have done assembled a route out of pieces...

There's also a lot of idiosyncracies to learn and work around. I rebuilt my vehicle a couple of times, eventually spending maybe an hour experimenting with materials and weights to see what is needed to attain balance - the size of a Rocket affects it's weight and thrust it seems, but full thrust is substantial even on tiny rockets. Some things proved unattainable - a rocket pack needs a minimum propulsion to overcome gravity, but you can't cap the speed and that same minimum produces crazy speeds on the downhills. In theory, if I could, I could have Sensors affecting maximum thrust depending on where the vehcile is, but you can't add multiple control systems to a device. Where at the moment the engine is always on when a Sackboy is in the driving seat, the whole thing would need a redesign.

It was certainly a fun and engaging experience, and I hope a number of issues have been addressed in the final build, with more advanced tools like Knife and Smoothing and stuff. I'll maybe have another go tomorrow.

Cheers for having me test your level and then buggering offline when I wanted you to test mine

The first part - editing once its attached...is not a problem. I feel I can edit objects once they are attached (as long as it isn't changing size etc...I can cut into it though) the problem is that dettaching is borked in the Beta. I believe this is a bug which won't be in the final game.

I have no idea what you're talking about "collissoin detection" being left behind. If i remove an object, it's gone.

If I'm honest, you made your course too complex. In that you created large objects. Always create smaller objects and stick them together and use dark matter. If it was me...i would have created a slide of glass, rather than huge blocks of glass...and then sticking those slides to a wooden support structure. It would look a lot better that way as well. Plus to get smooth lines don't create a big circle - use a small circle and draw your route. It will be completely smooth and you do a lot more than a figure of eight. But yes, it would be nice to cut your object before its too complex - I've always had a warning before it's too complex - at this point I cut it down.

Your last part is about vehicle balancing...go look at my sledges. They are made up of floaty, sponge, metal and ice. I performed a balancing act to make it work how I wanted it too. This is all part of the fun - it would be both boring and impossible for the vehicle to be balanced automatically - the game doesn't know how you want it to act. It's all common sense physics IMO...and you can test it there and then.

And why are your vehicles sensor based? If you want people to control their speed so they don't go crazy, then make them powered by grab switches...then they can actually control the ship. Or you could add four sensor switches on four sides, so that when Sackboy moves to that side, the vehicle moves to that side also (will need four rockets)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Cheers for having me test your level and then buggering offline when I wanted you to test mine

Sorry, man! You should have said! Why you got no voice chat?

I have no idea what you're talking about "collissoin detection" being left behind. If i remove an object, it's gone.

I had the inner circle object glued to the background. When I deleted part of the bottom geometry, it didn't delete the collision geometry.

If I'm honest, you made your course too complex [and it was broken]...

Absolutely. The course as was just a test course, the idea being it'd be quick to make while creating the vehicle. The reason for the cutout was the idea was supposed to be 'slot-car racer' but as I hit the limits of the engine, I realised that wouldn't be possible in the obvious way - cutting out a slot route. The end design, if I finish it, will be something very different.

It's all common sense physics IMO...and you can test it there and then.

Sure, I wasn't knocking it. Just pointing out that there's a lot to be learnt to get good results. The 'slot-car racer' is a doddle concept on paper - a vehicle that slots into a groover that just goes. Piecing it together as such isn't at all as straightforward though!

And why are your vehicles sensor based? If you want people to control their speed so they don't go crazy, then make them powered by grab switches...then they can actually control the ship.

That would control thrust, but not direction.

Or you could add four sensor switches on four sides, so that when Sackboy moves to that side, the vehicle moves to that side also (will need four rockets)

That would work as long as the vehicle was upright and the player had time to move around. If the vehicle is whizzing around a track, turning this way and that, managing grabs would be pretty tought. The intention was the vehicle would 'stick' to the track with the player just applying little changes.

And it was an idea made up as I went along, just seeing how a slot-car racer could be put together. It wasn't at all an intelligent design process well thought out before hand! As you noticed by the getting into the vehicles in the first place - all that faffing around building a bording platform, a jetpack would have done much, much better! The fact that players have to stick together or are wiped out kinda ruins the concept of a racer anyway, at least anything that's not floaty-light.

 

[goonergaz]

That's the creators fault.

Whilst I understand what you're saying, does this mean there is an option to 'reset' things when a sackboy dies?

If that option is missing then it needs implementing...i.e. 'disolve' on contact but 'reset' when player 'dies'.

 

[deepbrown]

Sorry, man! You should have said! Why you got no voice chat?

I had the inner circle object glued to the background. When I deleted part of the bottom geometry, it didn't delete the collision geometry.

Absolutely. The course as was just a test course, the idea being it'd be quick to make while creating the vehicle. The reason for the cutout was the idea was supposed to be 'slot-car racer' but as I hit the limits of the engine, I realised that wouldn't be possible in the obvious way - cutting out a slot route. The end design, if I finish it, will be something very different.

Sure, I wasn't knocking it. Just pointing out that there's a lot to be learnt to get good results. The 'slot-car racer' is a doddle concept on paper - a vehicle that slots into a groover that just goes. Piecing it together as such isn't at all as straightforward though!

That would control thrust, but not direction.
That would work as long as the vehicle was upright and the player had time to move around. If the vehicle is whizzing around a track, turning this way and that, managing grabs would be pretty tought. The intention was the vehicle would 'stick' to the track with the player just applying little changes.

How about making the track smaller...and connecting the vehicles to the track - using bolts and ice. Like a rollercoaster. Noone seems to have grasped that yet, but I will be making a roller coaster with full lopps, and the vehicle won't fall off.

 

[patsu]

Whilst I understand what you're saying, does this mean there is an option to 'reset' things when a sackboy dies?

If that option is missing then it needs implementing...i.e. 'disolve' on contact but 'reset' when player 'dies'.

It gets complicated when there are more than one players.

 

[goonergaz]

It gets complicated when there are more than one players.

How about a reset button? In the SotC level it would be handy if you could reset the bridge and horse...you could have a button to press to reset, ah, hold on - could you have it that the bridge and horse are not there UNTIL you hit a switch? And then if you did die you could just press the button again.

 

[goonergaz]

How about making the track smaller...and connecting the vehicles to the track - using bolts and ice. Like a rollercoaster. Noone seems to have grasped that yet, but I will be making a roller coaster with full lopps, and the vehicle won't fall off.

brilliant - I love the thinking...tho how will you do a loop as I would assume you couldn't use the depth to help out where the track crosses paths?

 

[patsu]

How about a reset button? In the SotC level it would be handy if you could reset the bridge and horse...you could have a button to press to reset, ah, hold on - could you have it that the bridge and horse are not there UNTIL you hit a switch? And then if you did die you could just press the button again.

If it's object specific behaviour, then it's probably handled by the creator. In general, LBP won't know what the right outcome is.

 

[Ray Von]

So far I think I've got around the restart issue:

Instead of placing the object ready for the user, place an emitter and switch that emits the object when the user gets near it.

Having said that I haven't completed the level or testing, so I'm sure it doesn't work in all cases, but thought I'd mention it as I've played quite a few user created levels that I've had to restart, which probably I wouldn't have had to if an imitter was used instead.

 

[goonergaz]

So far I think I've got around the restart issue:

Instead of placing the object ready for the user, place an emitter and switch that emits the object when the user gets near it.

Having said that I haven't completed the level or testing, so I'm sure it doesn't work in all cases, but thought I'd mention it as I've played quite a few user created levels that I've had to restart, which probably I wouldn't have had to if an imitter was used instead.

That's exactly what I was trying to say

 

[ShadowRunner]

Not being in the beta ???: ) I can only guess, but I think the point is avoiding restart and continuing from last spawn point.

Anyway, that will probably be level creator's responsibility.

PM'd you with a code

 

[deepbrown]

How about a reset button? In the SotC level it would be handy if you could reset the bridge and horse...you could have a button to press to reset, ah, hold on - could you have it that the bridge and horse are not there UNTIL you hit a switch? And then if you did die you could just press the button again.

It is possible to do a reset if you want to. I feel the best way is to put spawn doors in the right place. You could even have a moving spawn hole. Eg. You activate the spwan hole before Agro, and by the time Agro dies, that spawn hole you activated has been transported to the other side of the fallen bridge...where you'd spawn if you died. Quite simple...just have ths spawn hole on ropes, or piston, etc and have it trigger movement once you pass a certain point.

 

[deepbrown]

brilliant - I love the thinking...tho how will you do a loop as I would assume you couldn't use the depth to help out where the track crosses paths?

You certainly can use depth Make the roller coaster two deep, but the track only one deep...when you get to the point where the tracks would have to overlap, you just swap depths of the track...hence you carry on going round.

 

[Arwin]

I finally managed to get to experimenting a little more with the editor. I was actually intending to try the front view together with taking in a picture using the PS Eye as Shifty suggested a while ago, but then I came up with something completely different. It's just a quick first version that plays six rather than eight notes (let alone half notes) and I didn't pay attention to the length or anything, but I think you get the idea ... One nice thing I was thinking of is that in a music themed level, you could have the score laid out in the background of the level and have the metro go through it, either using follow mode to follow you around, or just by itself so you catch up with it or it catches up with you once in a while ... Well lots of other ideas too, but ... well it will take some time to make this into something worthy of a full level. But something in a vain of Loom or something similar could be nice, or just a note tutoring thing, etc., there's some possibilities. As there tend to be with this awesome, awesome game, I'm going to sooo miss the beta after this weekend! *snif*

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How about making the track smaller...and connecting the vehicles to the track - using bolts and ice. Like a rollercoaster.

That's an option. I was wanting lane changing, rather than a straight Scaletrix design, so that players could 'overtake'. There are lots of solutions with their pros and cons and limitations. In this respect LBP is very real and phsyical, offering a load of ways to solve a problem. Should be great for developing thinking skills, especially lateral thinking and creative solutions!

 

[Cornsnake]

I've tried to make a vehicle that let's you control a few things on it at the same time. You stand on a switch connected to a emitter, so jumping allows you to shoot golfbals forward. Hanging above that from a piece of string is a sponge, grabbing it will shoot golfbals upward. The sponge can be grabbed even during jumping. And finally because the vehicle is always moving forward your automatically pressed back in your seat, walking forward will hit a proximity trigger giving you a short speed burst above the normal speed, which will also knock you back in your seat.

I took me a few hours to experiment with different triggers and switches, and fine tuning it, but the result is well worth it. Now to build a level around that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

And finally because the vehicle is always moving forward your automatically pressed back in your seat, walking forward will hit a proximity trigger giving you a short speed burst above the normal speed, which will also knock you back in your seat.

That's an smart implementation of the laws of physics.

Had my first experience of lag yesterday, and it shouldn't be called lag, but total-game-slowdown. The game was running about half speed as a guy tried ot join my game after I had passed a lock-out sign. If that's the online experience, Sony do not want Joe Public getting the wrong impression! Makes me question the idea of beta keys to USA Today readers etc.

Also I'm looking to use the PSEye today, but I'm afraid it's a pretty poor system. As EOJ demonstrates, the camera can't focus at short distances. A design the size of an EOJ card will occupy ~1/9th of the frame, and be blurry. Placing your picture at a distance where it'll be captured in focus will make it tiny, unless you draw it huge. Looks like A4 sized images will be needed. We'll see how it goes...

 

[goonergaz]

You certainly can use depth Make the roller coaster two deep, but the track only one deep...when you get to the point where the tracks would have to overlap, you just swap depths of the track...hence you carry on going round.

hhhmmmm...I'm not sure how you'd do that, I'm probably being a bit slow...but the depth works in steps, so I would imagine you'd come off the track (or come to the end of the track) at the point you change depths? :S