The "Liberal" media...

Clashman

Regular
For all of you who think we lefties have a stranglehold on American news outlets:

http://www.fair.org/extra/0305/warstudy.html

May/June 2003
Amplifying Officials, Squelching Dissent
FAIR study finds democracy poorly served by war coverage
By Steve Rendall & Tara Broughel

Since the invasion of Iraq began in March, official voices have dominated U.S. network newscasts, while opponents of the war have been notably underrepresented, according to a study by FAIR.

Starting the day after the bombing of Iraq began on March 19, the three-week study (3/20/03-4/9/03) looked at 1,617 on-camera sources appearing in stories about Iraq on the evening newscasts of six television networks and news channels. The news programs studied were ABC World News Tonight, CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, CNN’s Wolf Blitzer Reports, Fox’s Special Report with Brit Hume, and PBS’s NewsHour With Jim Lehrer.*

Sources were coded by name, occupation, nationality, position on the war and the network on which they appeared. Sources were categorized as having a position on the war if they expressed a policy opinion on the news shows studied, were currently affiliated with governments or institutions that took a position on the war, or otherwise took a prominent stance. For instance, retired Gen. Wesley Clark, a hired military analyst for CNN, was not categorized as pro-war; we could find no evidence he endorsed the invasion or was affiliated with a group supporting the war. However, retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, an NBC analyst, was classified as pro-war as a board member of the Committee for a Free Iraq, a pro-war group.

Nearly two thirds of all sources, 64 percent, were pro-war, while 71 percent of U.S. guests favored the war. Anti-war voices were 10 percent of all sources, but just 6 percent of non-Iraqi sources and 3 percent of U.S. sources. Thus viewers were more than six times as likely to see a pro-war source as one who was anti-war; with U.S. guests alone, the ratio increases to 25 to 1.

The official story

Official voices, including current and former government employees, whether civilian or military, dominated network newscasts, accounting for 63 percent of overall sources. Current and former U.S. officials alone provided more than half (52 percent) of all sources; adding officials from Britain, chief ally in the invasion of Iraq, brought the total to 57 percent.

Looking at U.S. sources, which made up 76 percent of total sources, more than two out of three (68 percent) were either current or former officials. The percentage of U.S. sources who were officials varied from network to network, ranging from 75 percent at CBS to 60 percent at NBC.

In the category of U.S. officials, military voices overwhelmed civilians by a two-to-one margin, providing 68 percent of U.S. official sources and nearly half (47 percent) of all U.S. sources. This predominance reflected the networks focus on information from journalists embedded with troops, or provided at military briefings, and the analysis of such by paid former military officials.

Former military personnel, who often appeared in longer-format, in-studio interviews, rather than in soundbites, characteristically offered technical commentary supportive of U.S. military efforts. In a typical comment, retired general (and CNN consultant) Wesley Clark told Wolf Blitzer on April 6: “Well, the United States has very, very important technological advantages. Unlike previous efforts in urban combat, we control the skies.†Analysis by these paid military commentators often blended into cheerleading, as with Clark’s comment from the same interview: “First of all, I think the troops and all the people over there, the commanders, have done an absolutely superb job, a sensational job. And I think the results speak for themselves.â€

Though some of these analysts criticized military planning, and were attacked for doing so by the administration and its allies (New York Times, 3/31/03), the rare criticisms were clearly motivated by a desire to see U.S. military efforts succeed. For instance, while NBC’s hired analyst, retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, said he expected the U.S. to prevail in the war, he worried that there weren’t sufficient ground troops in place for an expected battle for the city of Baghdad (3/25/03): “We have no business taking on that mission unless we're prepared to decisively employ combat power.â€

Of a total of 840 U.S. sources who are current or former government or military officials, only four were identified as holding anti-war opinions--Sen. Robert Byrd (D.-W.V.), Rep. Pete Stark (D.-Calif.) and two appearances by Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D.-Ohio). Byrd was featured on PBS, with Stark and Kucinich appearing on Fox News.

Overseas viewpoints

Among British news sources, 95 percent were government or military officials; the remaining 5 percent, four individuals, were all journalists. More than a third of the British public was opposed to the war at the time of this study, according to a Guardian/ICM poll (4/1/03), but no British anti-war voices were carried by these six news shows.

Iraq provided the only exception to the rule that official sources dominate the news. Iraqis made 200 appearances on the news shows during the study period, but less than a third of these (32 percent) were official sources. Interviews with persons on the street made up the largest category of Iraqi sources, with 62 percent of overall Iraqi appearances. Of Iraqi persons on the street, 49 percent expressed support for the U.S. war effort, while 18 percent voiced opposition, but the format of on-the-street interviews seldom elicited deep insights from either side; typical comments included “God damn to bloody hell Saddam†(CBS, 4/9/03) and “They can go. USA go†(Fox, 3/27/03).

Given that the war was ultimately justified as being fought for the liberation of the people of Iraq, sources who represented Iraqi civil society were in remarkably short supply on the news. Two of such Iraqi sources were clergymembers, one was a journalist and one represented a non-governmental organization. Nine sources came from Iraqi militia groups, both pro- and anti-U.S.

Only 6 percent of sources came from countries other than the U.S., Britain or Iraq. Given the strong opposition to the war measured in most countries that were not directly involved in the invasion, it's perhaps unsurprising that these sources had the most anti- war representation; 48 percent either voiced criticism or were officials of governments that criticized the war.

Citizens from those nations that most vocally opposed the U.S. war policy--France, Germany and Russia--accounted for 16 appearances, constituting just 1 percent of all guests. Nine of these 16 appearances were by government officials.

Out of 45 non-Iraqi Arab sources, a strong majority (63 percent) were opposed to the war. Kuwaitis, whose country served as a staging area for the invasion, were the only exception to this tendency; none of the eight Kuwaiti sources expressed opposition to the war.

Restricted to the street

As noted in earlier FAIR studies, over-reliance on official sources leaves little room for independent policy critics or grassroots voices. At a time when dissent was quite visible in U.S. society, with large anti-war demonstrations across the country and 27 percent of the public telling pollsters they opposed the war (Bulletin's Frontrunner, 4/7/03), the networks largely ignored anti-war opinion in the U.S.

The FAIR study found just 3 percent of U.S. sources represented or expressed opposition to the war. With more than one in four U.S. citizens opposing the war and much higher rates of opposition in most countries where opinion was polled, none of the networks offered anything resembling proportionate coverage of anti-war voices. The anti-war percentages ranged from 4 percent at NBC, 3 percent at CNN, ABC, PBS and FOX, and less than 1 percent--one out of 205 U.S. sources--at CBS.

While the percentage of Americans opposing the war was about 10 times higher in the real world as they were on the nightly news (27 percent versus 3 percent), their proportion of the guestlist may still overstate the degree to which they were able to present their views on U.S. television. Guests with anti-war viewpoints were almost universally allowed one- sentence soundbites taken from interviews conducted on the street. Not a single show in the study conducted a sit-down interview with a person identified as being against the war.

Anti-war sources were treated so fleetingly that they often weren’t even quoted by name. While 80 percent of all sources appearing on the nightly news shows are identified by name, 42 percent of anti-war voices went unnamed or were labeled with such vague terms as “protester†or “anti-war activist.†Only one leader of an anti-war group appeared as a source: Leslie Cagan of United for Peace and Justice, a New York-based organizer of anti-war marches, appeared on a March 27 CNN segment in a one-sentence soundbite from an on-the-street interview.

Beyond the battlefield

Perhaps as striking as the dominance of official voices and the scarcity of dissent on these shows was the absence of experts dealing in non-military issues. The story of war is much larger than simply what happens on the battlefield; it includes issues of international law, human rights and global and regional politics--issues beyond the scope and expertise of former generals.

But few people with the expertise to address such questions were sought out on the nightly news. FAIR found that academics, think tank staffers and representatives of non- governmental organizations (NGOs) accounted for just 4 percent of all sources.

With 64 appearances overall, this group included just one source who spoke against the war, Rev. Al Sharpton of the National Action Center, a civil rights NGO. Twelve sources supported the war, while the remaining 51 sources did not take an explicit position.

Nearly half of the think tank sources (seven of 16) favored the war, while none opposed. The Council on Foreign Relations was most frequently represented; two of its three sources supported the war. Academic sources included three supporters of the war and no opponents.

The International Committee of the Red Cross, which takes no political positions, was the leading NGO, with four appearances; no other NGO had more than one appearance. Of those with discernable positions on the war, two sources were in favor, one opposed.

More often, when television wanted a non-official source to provide context, it turned, somewhat incestuously, to journalists from other news outlets--who provided 8 percent of all sources. Relatives of military personnel made up another 4 percent of sources.



SIDEBAR:

The Best--and Worst--of an Imbalanced Lot
In terms of their guestlists, the television outlets studied by FAIR were more alike than different: All had a heavy emphasis on official sources, particularly current and former U.S. military personnel; each featured a large proportion of pro-war voices; and none gave much attention to dissenting voices.

But these trends were more or less pronounced on different shows. The outlet with the smallest percentage of U.S. sources who were officials (60 percent) and the largest percentage of U.S. sources who were anti-war (4 percent) was NBC Nightly News, despite the network's ownership by General Electric, a significant military contractor.

The highest percentage of officials among U.S. sources (75 percent) and the lowest number of U.S. anti-war voices (one--a soundbite from Michael Moore's March 24 Oscar speech) was CBS Evening News. The show's anchor, Dan Rather, had openly declared the partisanship of his coverage (Larry King Live, 4/14/03):


Look, I'm an American. I never tried to kid anybody that I'm some internationalist or something. And when my country is at war, I want my country to win, whatever the definition of "win" may be. Now, I can't and don't argue that that is coverage without a prejudice. About that I am prejudiced.
PBS's NewsHour also had a relatively low percentage of anti-war voices--perhaps because the show less frequently features on-the-street interviews, to which critics of the war were usually relegated.

Though Fox News Channel frequently engaged in overt cheerleading for the war and is on record as considering itself a pro-war news outlet (Baltimore Sun, 4/2/03), Fox's Special Report with Brit Hume had fewer U.S. officials than CBS (70 percent) and more U.S. anti-war guests (3 percent) than PBS or CBS. Eighty-one percent of Fox’s sources were pro-war, however, the highest of any network. CBS was close on the Murdoch network’s heels with 77 percent. NBC featured the lowest proportion of pro-war voices with 65 percent.

*The study was conducted using Nexis database transcripts. At publicatoin time, transcripts for six World News Tonight dates and two NewsHour dates were unavailable.

And while we're at it, this one was hilarious, too:

http://www.fair.org/extra/0305/kosovo-doves.html

May/June 2003
Dissent, Disloyalty & Double Standards
Kosovo doves denounced Iraq War protest as "anti-American"
By Steve Rendall

In the following quotes, well-known cable news hosts express anti-war feelings to hawkish guests. Can you guess which quote is “anti-American�

* "Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?â€

* "We're sending 250,000 of our young men and women to die so that somebody in Washington can prove they're tough. It's not us. We're not the ones that are going to die, they are.â€

For many right-leaning pundits, these seemingly similar expressions of dissent are worlds apart. To them, the first quote--Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity (Hannity & Colmes, 4/6/99) expressing opposition to the Clinton administration’s 1999 Kosovo actions--is responsible criticism of the government. The second remark, said by then-MSNBC host Phil Donahue (Donahue, 2/13/03) in opposition to the war in Iraq, is disloyal, anti- American--possibly even treasonous.

Donahue’s kind of anti-war observation angers conservative pundits like Hannity and fellow talkshow host Rush Limbaugh. In a recent radio broadcast (quoted in the Baltimore Sun, 3/9/03), Limbaugh could hardly contain his contempt for opponents of the current war: "I want to say something about these anti-war demonstrators. No, let's not mince words, let's call them what they are: anti-American demonstrators."

Limbaugh was more forgiving of opponents of Bill Clinton’s 1999 Kosovo involvement. He had to be; like Hannity, Limbaugh was part of that antiwar crowd. “Why Kosovo?†read a headline in the May 1999 issue of the Limbaugh Letter. The article scoffed at the declared humanitarian rationale for Clinton’s Kosovo policy, sounding like current anti- war protesters as it criticized the "shifting justifications" for war.

In another Limbaugh Letter story (5/99), an interview with retired Col. David Hackworth conducted during the war, Limbaugh seemed to countenance mutiny against the commander in chief. When Hackworth asserted that Clinton was “uniformly despised†within the military, Limbaugh responded: “How long, then, can it be before there is an uprising, and why hasn’t it happened before now?â€

Limbaugh and Hannity aren’t alone among conservative pundits who opposed what they called “Clinton’s war†in 1999, but who today demand unqualified devotion to Bush administration military policies. In 1999, Joe Scarborough was one of 173 Republican members of Congress voting against the bombing of Serbia. As that war came to an end, Rep. Scarborough told Fox host Catherine Crier (The Crier Report, 6/8/99): “This has been an unmitigated disaster ... Ask the Chinese embassy. Ask all the people in Belgrade that we've killed. Ask the refugees that we've killed. Ask the people in nursing homes. Ask the people in hospitals.â€

Today, as the host of MSNBC Reports (4/10/03), Scarborough seems to have lost his taste for anti-war dissent: “These leftist stooges for anti-American causes are always given a free pass. Isn't it time to make them stand up and be counted for their views, which could hurt American troop morale?â€

Scarborough made that remark while interviewing his MSNBC colleague Michael Savage. Savage also bitterly opposed Clinton’s Kosovo actions (NewsMax, 11/30/99): “These international war criminals were led by Gen. Wesley Clark ... who clicked his shiny heels for the commander-in-grief, Bill Clinton." Today Savage calls for the arrest of anti-war activists and the restoration of the Sedition Act to silence dissent (Savage Nation, 3/8/03): “Then we can stop some of these maniacs who are encouraging our enemies, weakening our troops' resolve and confusing the American people.â€

Savage and Scarborough have both asserted or implied that critics of the Iraq War were actually traitors to the country. "I wonder, will Martin Sheen apologize now for providing aid and comfort to the Baghdad beast by working day and night against his immediate removal?" Scarborough asked after the Iraqi capital fell (4/10/03). Referring to Hollywood peace advocates, Savage said (4/10/03): "It's not a laughing matter when we have influential idiots like this reducing troop morale, confusing the American people and emboldening our enemies. They are absolutely committing sedition or treason as far as I'm concerned."

Ubiquitous pundit Bill Bennett is just one of many more double-standard dissenters. Appearing on CNN’s Inside Politics in 1999 (4/16/99), Bennett dismissed U.S. Kosovo actions: “I think this policy is nuts." Four years later on CNBC, Bennett dismissed dissenters: "Well, you shouldn't listen to these protests because they're obviously helping Saddam Hussein.... It is worth noting, however, that Saddam was much encouraged by these protests."

In the bizarre world of conservative television pundits and talk radio hosts, loyalty means supporting the wars they support. Patriotism to them--to paraphrase Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass--means just what they choose it to mean, neither more nor less.

:rolleyes:
 
95% of all statistics are made up. ;)


..in all seriousness though, its not difficult to see bias. Since the slaughter of one of our nations biggest hero's (McCarthy) to today, the media has been largly left wing.

Bush played the media by sending them to the front lines. They were all gung ho in thier battle fatigues during the war coverage. But as soon as they were sent home, they fell right back into thier anti-america comfort zone. It hasn't even been a year since we went into Iraq and we are already helping them form a government. Do you know how long it took us in Japan?.. It took us 5 years AFTER Japan surrendured to design and implement a government.. and this was a total success!

How long does the media think this should take? I wonder how that compares to how long they would allow a Democrat to do the same job.
 
No, but because I dont believe anyone is that stupid ... first he picks a cliche to make it appear that he actually tried to counter the article mentioned. Which wouldnt be so bad if he picked the right cliche, the statistics clearly werent made up so he should have gone for "lies, damned lies". Then after only a single line he goes completely off topic with some prime trolling material ... if he wasnt trolling calling McCarthy one of the greatest American heros would be rather stupid, heros accomplish something ... even if you think he was right about communist sympathisers, his nearly sole responsibility of killing off the senate hearings meant to seek out communism without having any single great success kinda precludes him from hero status Id think.

I guess he could be honest in his disagreement, and his going off topic being an intentional diversion tactic because he couldnt argue effectively with the posted articles. In that case he is an idiot though.
 
MfA said:
No, but because I dont believe anyone is that stupid ... first he picks a cliche to make it appear that he actually tried to counter the article mentioned.

what in the article is worth countering? The authoer centers only on his opinion while not considering the oposite view point to his article. he doesn't address complaints about the liberal media at all. if anything he takes extremist rights wing individuals comments as some how representative the opposing position.

Which wouldnt be so bad if he picked the right cliche, the statistics clearly werent made up so he should have gone for "lies, damned lies".

they clearly weren't made up? I dare say the only reason you claim this is because you are sympathetic. Prove to me those statistics are accurate. shall we go into liberal misrepresentations of statistics? i can take you through chicago gun crime mirepresentation as well as liberal bias to the feminist agenda. WE might also be able to discuss the liberals mirepresetation of women in crimes against children on top of child support violations, welfare violations, etc.

Then after only a single line he goes completely off topic with some prime trolling material

as if this whole thread weren't prime trolling material.

... if he wasnt trolling calling McCarthy one of the greatest American heros would be rather stupid, heros accomplish something ... even if you think he was right about communist sympathisers, his nearly sole responsibility of killing off the senate hearings meant to seek out communism without having any single great success kinda precludes him from hero status Id think.

Are you two confusing MacArthur and McCarthy?

I guess he could be honest in his disagreement, and his going off topic being an intentional diversion tactic because he couldnt argue effectively with the posted articles. In that case he is an idiot though.

I think he was honest. I have posted articles for him.
 
Legion said:
what in the article is worth countering?

Methadology is usually the prime way to get statistics to lie, so if you think the conclusion is a lie then probably that.

The authoer centers only on his opinion while not considering the oposite view point to his article. he doesn't address complaints about the liberal media at all.

The authors of the piece werent using the anti/pro war slant of the media during the leadup to it to tie it to liberal/conservativeness of those media ... that was clashman.

they clearly weren't made up? I dare say the only reason you claim this is because you are sympathetic.

Nahh, just occams razor. If you are out to make a point with statistics there are less risky ways than outright lies.

as if this whole thread weren't prime trolling material.

Yes and no, the article itself I find interesting ... even if the context Clashman puts it in might be a troll.

... if he wasnt trolling calling McCarthy one of the greatest American heros would be rather stupid, heros accomplish something ... even if you think he was right about communist sympathisers, his nearly sole responsibility of killing off the senate hearings meant to seek out communism without having any single great success kinda precludes him from hero status Id think.

Are you two confusing MacArthur and McCarthy?

That would make more sense.

I think he was honest. I have posted articles for him.

In that case Im sorry for the ad hominem attack.
 
MfA said:
Nahh, just occams razor.

Is that possible? Someone actually used it online correctly?

As for the actual articles posted by Clash, the second one doesn't address the fundimental differences between the conflict in Kosovo and that in Iraq as per there effect on the United States's security and the greater war on Terrorism/Fundimentalism. The entire article is irrelevent IMHO for this flaw which was seemingly overlooked in an attempt to discredit a particular ideology at all costs.

I consider it like using the Republican stance on the Civil War to question why the Republicans don't advocate becoming involved with every nation's intragovernmental/factional disputes and powerstruggles.
 
You do realize McCarthy was a great war hero of course?

He only fell from grace in the eyes of the population when he went completely paranoid about communism.

Hes kinda analogus (to a much lesser extent) to Marshall Petin, who started the Vichy alliance with Germany (he was French). He was such a man of courage in the first world war, that it was unthinkable to many that he would betray the country years later.

Do you know, amongst the French resistants in WW2, nearly all were grass roots. Farmers, college students, laborers, and the like. I find it ironic that a plurality of ntellectuals (except for communists, who were great resistants) were firmly on the 'give peace a chance' bandwagon.

Its amazing how intellectuals can rationalize downright wrong stances. I look at some of the great German minds, who fought for the Nazis. Its scary that men of such valor, courage and intelligence could ever be so brainwashed.
 
Except, Vince, that Iraq was a secular state and an enemy of Al Queda, and so the fundamentalist/terrorist connection doesn't exactly hold alot of water.
 
Clashman said:
Except, Vince, that Iraq was a secular state and an enemy of Al Queda, and so the fundamentalist/terrorist connection doesn't exactly hold alot of water.

:rolleyes: Bin laden has supported other seculiar arab groups in the past. So yes the argument does hold water.
 
Legion said:
what in the article is worth countering? The authoer centers only on his opinion while not considering the oposite view point to his article. he doesn't address complaints about the liberal media at all. if anything he takes extremist rights wing individuals comments as some how representative the opposing position.

First off, you could start by trying to counter the assertion backed up by empirical facts that the Anti-War movement was not included in the debate on the war. This is something I've been bringing up for a LONG time now. The first article does in fact address complaints about the liberal media by pointing out that the vast majority of stories, sit-down interviews, etc, made during the war itself focused on war sympathizers, and hardly ANY focused seriously on anti-war demonstrators. Moreover, this came at a time in which this "left-wing" anti-war movement was in fact the largest social movement since the 1960's. That's an incredibly huge movement to nearly completely block out of your line of vision if your organization is so filled with lefties.

As far as the other article focusing on extreme-right wing statements, they're very right wing, but aren't extreme in the sense that one can easily be spotted in most "conservative" dialog. People like Limbaugh and Savage have weekly listeners that number into the 10's of millions. In fact, we could take a couple examples from the two sites you listed. Here's a couple quotes from one of the sites you listed:

Rather than mourning on Sept. 11, notorious Sen. Patty "Osama Mama" Murray, best known for her praise of mass-murdering psycho Osama bin Laden, held a $1,000-a-plate fund-raising breakfast.

9/11 Anniversary: Spitting On Their Graves

To those who lost their lives on Sept. 11 because their government failed to enforce its borders, laws, and sovereignty, the politicians and bureaucrats and civic leaders will ostentatiously offer one day a year of dedication in rhetoric ? and 364 days of desecration in deed

Or how about some of your own quotes, Legion?

This is kind of how i feel about canada. You exist so we can sell you things.

I agree emphatically. The UN is an invalid impotent organization. It has done very little good for the world. Much of what has benefited others has come at the cost of US support. To many of the nations backing the UN are militarily incapable of enforcing mandates of the UN. This leaves the US and England to do much of the work whilst countries like France are able to maintain their indolence.

(This was done mockingly, in case you couldn't figure it out) Russschultz you are an idiot! We, the leftist protestors hate you because you present practical solutions to problems we try to make as convulted as possible. How dare you think that absolutely no good could come from allowing Saddam to remain in power! Now you listen! A good reason to keep him in power was (insert mantra here) as it would prevent blah blah blah. War will only kill less then Saddam does every year and ultimately remove a tyranical dictator from power - the power to exploit. As humanists we recognize his evolutionist perogative to exploit others! If you were as open minded and educated as we are you would feel the same. Your rightist-trash programming has made you more succeptable to logic ergo your pragmatism. Learn to think in the future before you respond!

I fail to see much of a difference between the "extreme-right" that "isn't representative" and the types of statements you yourself have composed.

As for the flaime-bait bit, if you're going to go on and on and on about "liberal media" not giving the poor conservatives a chance, then I think I have every right to use that phrase as a subject title to a thread countering that notion. I believe I have been far more civil to you than you to me, and so I don't see what I should be apologizing for.
 
Legion said:
Clashman said:
Except, Vince, that Iraq was a secular state and an enemy of Al Queda, and so the fundamentalist/terrorist connection doesn't exactly hold alot of water.

:rolleyes: Bin laden has supported other seculiar arab groups in the past. So yes the argument does hold water.

Yeah, but not Hussein, so no it doesn't.

To add to that a bit: I made the statement that the Ba'ath government was an enemy of Al Queda not because they were secular but because Osama has repeatedly called for an overthrow of the regime. Maybe that's just me, but I generally take that as a sign that they weren't pals.
 
Clashman said:
Legion said:
Clashman said:
Except, Vince, that Iraq was a secular state and an enemy of Al Queda, and so the fundamentalist/terrorist connection doesn't exactly hold alot of water.

:rolleyes: Bin laden has supported other seculiar arab groups in the past. So yes the argument does hold water.

Yeah, but not Hussein, so no it doesn't.

really? But Hamas, Al aqsa and the rest? :rolleyes:
 
What does that have to do with Hussein and Al Queda?

Christ, everyone knows that the Saudis are much closer to Bin Laden than Hussein ever was. So why didn't we bomb them?

BTW: It's three o'clock in the morning here. I'm getting to sleep. Maybe I'll continue this when I wake up more refreshed. Or maybe I'll be so refreshed that I'll see the pointlessness of this whole thing and not bother.
 
First off, you could start by trying to counter the assertion backed up by empirical facts that the Anti-War movement was not included in the debate on the war.

THe antiwar movement uses bogus argumentation against the removal or a tyrannical dictator. They center on only one reason for his removal despite his refusal to cooperate with US/UN officials. He has demonstrated himself a dangerous man, a murdous man. Any one who thinks the country was better off under his control hasn't an opinion worth listening to.

It is laughable that so many of the people who are against this attack supported Clinton's attack on Afghanistan and allegations against Iraq in the past. These are the same people who exploited the iraqi populace through the Oil for food act not to long ago. As i see it, there is mounting evidence for complete political corruption involved in the support of Iraq as a nation.

There is no valid reason to keep this man in power. He is a mass murder, he created biological weapons and used them on innocent civilians, claims to be secular but uses religious terrorist groups as support while training them in the past.

More people have died under Saddam then all of those whom have died in this war. If the UN was allowed to continue its bs operations in Iraq more people would have died from avoidable starvation. THis man has put forth more than 2.5 billion dollars US to building palaces from 1994 to 1998. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of money he has burned on those french rolland missles and jet engines and russian tanks and firearms instead of feeding his populace for which the UN resolution was declared. This of course is aside from the fact that Russia and France had no damn business selling Iraq those weapons in the first place during the years of Oil for Food Act.

This is something I've been bringing up for a LONG time now. The first article does in fact address complaints about the liberal media by pointing out that the vast majority of stories, sit-down interviews, etc, made during the war itself focused on war sympathizers, and hardly ANY focused seriously on anti-war demonstrators.

What you have been bringing up is garbage. The liberal crapola you post never provides adequate sollutions to the problems. Much like the do-nothing era of the Oil for Food act Iraq suffered unders its dictator. So many comparison can be drawn between this dictator and others. His behavior is predictable. He never had an interest in providing for his people. He the cause of their starvation and suffering. Throughin money at a problem, the liberal sollution, without a doubt only made the problem worse.

Moreover, this came at a time in which this "left-wing" anti-war movement was in fact the largest social movement since the 1960's.

Why does the left venture so strongly the ad popullum fallacy? Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself? The size of the German army and the ranks of the axis forces did nothing to provide reason to their unjustifiable murder of millions of people in europe and asia. The number of supporters of a cause does not dictate the accuracy or authenticity of their claims.

The left is never about sollutions. They and their media are about ridicule.

WHen will i ever hear a practicle sollution to the Iraq problem? Leftist would have been more than happy to have left those people to suffer under Saddam. Not one of them cares. Look to NK and see yet another example of complete apathy for the suffering. Where was Clinton to help them rid themselve of Kim? Where was the UN? All they did was sit buy and hand him donations to further develope his nuclear arsenal and weapons technology provide to him by the Chinese. This is the leftist sollution?

This behavior is so historic. Look to germany during ww2. The european nations had a wantingness to appease Hitler to avoid war when war was his intention. THey sold out Poland among other nations inorder to avoid taking responsibility.

If anything history has taught us dictators are not easy to deal with. Giving them what they want is not in the best interest of anyone. Doing nothing is the best way to support.

Where were you leftists back in the days of Clinton? He used both the afganistan and kosovo incidents as political escapes from his justice. His entire motives were skewed by his soul desire of saving his political legacy.

That's an incredibly huge movement to nearly completely block out of your line of vision if your organization is so filled with lefties.

I believe the press to be mainly leftist. Its easy to see this. Hense the reason we here stories about how large the "peace movement" is but never see any evidence.

As far as the other article focusing on extreme-right wing statements, they're very right wing, but aren't extreme in the sense that one can easily be spotted in most "conservative" dialog.

Rush and Savage aren't viewed as extremist by the left? This is a first.

People like Limbaugh and Savage have weekly listeners that number into the 10's of millions. In fact, we could take a couple examples from the two sites you listed. Here's a couple quotes from one of the sites you listed:

Really? SO the number of listenes automatically share their opinions? You don't think they have any liberal listeners? What on earth is your point.

Rather than mourning on Sept. 11, notorious Sen. Patty "Osama Mama" Murray, best known for her praise of mass-murdering psycho Osama bin Laden, held a $1,000-a-plate fund-raising breakfast.

ARe you trying to say this is insupport of conservatives for osama's crimes?

9/11 Anniversary: Spitting On Their Graves

To those who lost their lives on Sept. 11 because their government failed to enforce its borders, laws, and sovereignty, the politicians and bureaucrats and civic leaders will ostentatiously offer one day a year of dedication in rhetoric ? and 364 days of desecration in deed

My God, don't tell me you blame this on bush. Where on earth do you think all this damages comes from? The lack of border support, laws, etc were politically enabled under the clinton admin. Bush at this time may have been in office a year. Are you claiming that within 1 year all these damages to US national sovereignty and border protection were caused by him? Senators from texas have been trying to get the dems to support tightenging borders to keep illegals out for years. Yet it was not in the political interest of the dems in government to help out.

Or how about some of your own quotes, Legion?

This is kind of how i feel about canada. You exist so we can sell you things.

What was the context in which this statement was made? Do you believe me to be anything by sardonic in this statement? Are you deliberately trying to assinate my character because you can't find any other way to refute what i have been saying?

Do i not joke around often? Do you really think i love KILER's sexy ass too or spank vince like a disobedient catholic school girl? I have said those things to? Do you really believe i meant them?

I agree emphatically. The UN is an invalid impotent organization. It has done very little good for the world. Much of what has benefited others has come at the cost of US support. To many of the nations backing the UN are militarily incapable of enforcing mandates of the UN. This leaves the US and England to do much of the work whilst countries like France are able to maintain their indolence.

I won't change my opinion on this at all. It is easy to see the lack of real effort to protect nations from dictators and the like whom would want to erase their sovereignt. NK, Iraq, China and so forth have been allowed to exist and or contribute to the UN though they exist as criminal nations who violate their people's natural rights. Many nations of the UN (including china) share in this behavior. How can you object when nations like Lybia are appointed as human rights console? Jesus.

(This was done mockingly, in case you couldn't figure it out) Russschultz you are an idiot! We, the leftist protestors hate you because you present practical solutions to problems we try to make as convulted as possible. How dare you think that absolutely no good could come from allowing Saddam to remain in power! Now you listen! A good reason to keep him in power was (insert mantra here) as it would prevent blah blah blah. War will only kill less then Saddam does every year and ultimately remove a tyranical dictator from power - the power to exploit. As humanists we recognize his evolutionist perogative to exploit others! If you were as open minded and educated as we are you would feel the same. Your rightist-trash programming has made you more succeptable to logic ergo your pragmatism. Learn to think in the future before you respond!

If it were sarcastic why are you using it against me?

I fail to see much of a difference between the "extreme-right" that "isn't representative" and the types of statements you yourself have composed.

all though you admit many of my statements were sarcastic and that i myself do not represent conversatives at all. I am openly sexually liberal and a bisexual. Typical of conservatives i suppose.

As for the flaime-bait bit, if you're going to go on and on and on about "liberal media" not giving the poor conservatives a chance, then I think I have every right to use that phrase as a subject title to a thread countering that notion. I believe I have been far more civil to you than you to me, and so I don't see what I should be apologizing for.

THe problem isn't the text but rather the pure misrepresentation of opposing arguments and the lack of a leftist sollution to the problem. This comes and nothing more than ridicule lacking in substance and an alternative.
 
Clashman said:
What does that have to do with Hussein and Al Queda?

:rolleyes: So he is involved with the terrorist element just not al queda? :LOL:

Its really al queda who are the bad guys.

Did anyone ever state that they were a main contributer to al queda?

Is that even relevant? It is well known he has had ties to other terrorist religious groups.

You claimed he was seculiar yet he supported religious terrorist groups. I was merely pointing out in practive you were wrong about Saddam's interests.

Christ, everyone knows that the Saudis are much closer to Bin Laden than Hussein ever was. So why didn't we bomb them?

And what barings does that have on Saddam's actions as a punishable offense? Do you believe we should spread our forces and take action against numerous terrorist nations all at once? What wrong with one or two at a time? We just have so many of our troups out patroling this world to keep it safe we don't have enough now to rid the world of terrorism Clash. Maybe the euros should help a bit more....or maybe i am asking to much....

should we leave terrorist nation supporting leaders in power? for what reason clash? They support terrorism. People will die because of them. People will die by their hands. Should we sit by and do nothing. Form sanctions no one will really enforce against and only further aggitate the problem giving them ample time to retaliate or should we simply take them out of the equation?

It seems many of those of whom your report are antiwar are people who have little to lose in the process interms of violence against them.
 
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