The Intel Execution in [2024]

[Shifty Geezer]

There are many things there to consider and research prior to coming to some dubious conclusions like the one where Intel CPU engineers suddenly forgot how to make chips.

No-one's suggesting that. Same way no-one suggested Sony and MS forgot how to make consoles when PS360s died en masse. It was a change they weren't used to; a new problem no-one anticipated. The question here is what new thing is happening that caught Intel unawares?

 

[homerdog]

It looks to me like most all reported problems are coming from 900k variants. Of course other chips may experience some higher than normal issues as all these chips are being pushed pretty hard in their respective bins, but relatively few people with such lower tier RL parts seem to be encountering these issues. It does seem that the issue, while real, is being overblown somewhat in the way people talking about it, as if all Raptor Lake parts are somehow disastrously failing or something.

I think the issue is underblown. Instability is worse than total failure. I would rather a CPU completely die on me than have it experience periodic instability, throwing up misleading errors and getting worse over time.

 

[DegustatoR]

Same way no-one suggested Sony and MS forgot how to make consoles when PS360s died en masse.

Don't remember Sony consoles dying and as for 360 wasn't this a packaging issue stemming from the choice of a partner by MS?

 

[Kaotik]

Don't remember Sony consoles dying and as for 360 wasn't this a packaging issue stemming from the choice of a partner by MS?

The 360 was caused by detoriating contacts between motherboard and GPU from constant hot/cold cycles, there wasn't anything special or strange in the GPU package

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Don't remember Sony consoles dying and as for 360 wasn't this a packaging issue stemming from the choice of a partner by MS?

Both were caused by the ban on lead solder and new lead-free solder having characteristics no engineers understood because they had never been used in wide-spread high-performance consumer electronics. Original designs made assumptions the new stuff worked like the old stuff. Once it was learned that wasn't the case, the engineers adapted.

There's clearly something going on with these Intel CPUs. Either there's something in the design everyone's missed, or something in the manufacturing, or whatever. It's clearly something no-one would have thought to consider, just like the lead-free solder wasn't questioned, and now the human collective intelligence needs to work on identifying a very tricky bug, understanding the cause, and finding a solution. Lessons will be learned and likely applied elsewhere.

 

[techuse]

Are there any estimates on a possible % of chips affected?

 

[entity279]

There's clearly something going on with these Intel CPUs. Either there's something in the design everyone's missed, or something in the manufacturing, or whatever. It's clearly something no-one would have thought to consider, just like the lead-free solder wasn't questioned, and now the human collective intelligence needs to work on identifying a very tricky bug, understanding the cause, and finding a solution. Lessons will be learned and likely applied elsewhere.

Indeed.
Still can't rule out that it is something that should have been considered/noticed, but it was missed due to an error.

Depending on what the underlying cause will turn out to be, we will be able to speculate on likelyhood of error/mistake vs discovery of a new relevant phenomenom.
Unlikely we will ever get an admission of error though.

 

[DavidGraham]

Intel Publishes Official Response To 14th Gen & 13th Gen CPU Instability Issues: Cites Elevated Operating Voltages As Root Cause, New Microcode Patch In August.

Intel Publishes Official Response To 14th Gen & 13th Gen CPU Instability Issues: Cites Elevated Operating Voltages As Root Cause, New Microcode Patch In August

Intel has an official statement regarding 13th and 14th Gen CPU instability issues, citing elevating operating voltages as the root cause.

wccftech.com

 

[Nisaaru]

Intel Publishes Official Response To 14th Gen & 13th Gen CPU Instability Issues: Cites Elevated Operating Voltages As Root Cause, New Microcode Patch In August.

Intel Publishes Official Response To 14th Gen & 13th Gen CPU Instability Issues: Cites Elevated Operating Voltages As Root Cause, New Microcode Patch In August

Intel has an official statement regarding 13th and 14th Gen CPU instability issues, citing elevating operating voltages as the root cause.

wccftech.com

I seriously doubt this will be the end of this saga.

IMHO Intel is really screwed and they will obfuscate as long as possible.

 

[DegustatoR]

Intel Addresses Desktop Raptor Lake Instability Issues: Faults Excessive Voltage from Microcode, Fix Coming in August

www.anandtech.com

Based on extensive analysis of Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors returned to us due to instability issues, we have determined that elevated operating voltage is causing instability issues in some 13th/14th Gen desktop processors. Our analysis of returned processors confirms that the elevated operating voltage is stemming from a microcode algorithm resulting in incorrect voltage requests to the processor.

Intel is delivering a microcode patch which addresses the root cause of exposure to elevated voltages. We are continuing validation to ensure that scenarios of instability reported to Intel regarding its Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors are addressed. Intel is currently targeting mid-August for patch release to partners following full validation.

Intel is committed to making this right with our customers, and we continue asking any customers currently experiencing instability issues on their Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors reach out to Intel Customer Support for further assistance.
-Intel Community Post

Short answer: We can confirm there was a via Oxidation manufacturing issue (addressed back in 2023) but it is not related to the instability issue.

Long answer: We can confirm that the via Oxidation manufacturing issue affected some early Intel Core 13th Gen desktop processors. However, the issue was root caused and addressed with manufacturing improvements and screens in 2023. We have also looked at it from the instability reports on Intel Core 13th Gen desktop processors and the analysis to-date has determined that only a small number of instability reports can be connected to the manufacturing issue.

For the Instability issue, we are delivering a microcode patch which addresses exposure to elevated voltages which is a key element of the Instability issue. We are currently validating the microcode patch to ensure the instability issues for 13th/14th Gen are addressed.
-Intel Reddit Post

Intel is aware of a small number of instability reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen mobile processors. Based on our in-depth analysis of the reported Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processor instability issues, Intel has determined that mobile products are not exposed to the same issue. The symptoms being reported on 13th/14th Gen mobile systems – including system hangs and crashes – are common symptoms stemming from a broad range of potential software and hardware issues. As always, if users are experiencing issues with their Intel-powered laptops we encourage them to reach out to the system manufacturer for further assistance.
-Intel Rep to Digital Trends

I seriously doubt this will be the end of this saga.

Let's wait and see instead of doubting Intel's ability to understand what's happening with their own products.

 

[orangpelupa]

intel stock is rising again. but exchange rate still unvaforable to me... do i bite the exchange rate or waait even more....

as this news would make the stock rises higher, i imagine. but what if the fix didnt really fix it or result in another problem altogehter. i

hopefully gen 15 is still on track end of 2024. i also want to assemble another PC and weighting between ryzen 9000 or intel gen 15

 

[Nisaaru]

Let's wait and see instead of doubting Intel's ability to understand what's happening with their own products.

I doubt their will to reveal what's really going on because that would not be in their interest. As should you.

Intel's R&D and manufacturing is in a very precarious position at the moment so whatever is going on here might mean billions of losses, potentially no easy CPU replacement, loss of market/trust and heads rolling.

I don't buy the over voltage narrative after the issues popped up on servers too and not just at hobbyists and 3rd party motherboard vendors playing overclocking roulette.

 

[DegustatoR]

I doubt their will to reveal what's really going on because that would not be in their interest. As should you.

Intel's R&D and manufacturing is in a very precarious position at the moment so whatever is going on here might mean billions of losses, potentially no easy CPU replacement, loss of market/trust and heads rolling.

I don't buy the over voltage narrative after the issues popped up on servers too and not just at hobbyists and 3rd party motherboard vendors playing overclocking roulette.

I see zero point in doubting anything. The issue will either be fixed with a m/c update as Intel said it should be or it will continue - in the latter case it will be obvious and it won't matter what's "in Intel's interest".

 

[pcchen]

I think some CPU review sites should do a complete benchmark review comparing performances before and after these patches, preferably using BIOS settings people actually use.

 

[Kaotik]

hopefully gen 15 is still on track end of 2024. i also want to assemble another PC and weighting between ryzen 9000 or intel gen 15

You mean 2nd gen, desktop is jumping to Core Ultra boat too

 

[trinibwoy]

I recently refreshed my htpc with a 12400 and I’m very impressed so far. It sips power, haven’t seen it go over 20w and performance is rock solid. That’s more exciting to me than the overvolted power hungry chips leading the pack. Intel likely pushed too hard trying to eke out a few more pixels on those performance bar charts.

Big CPUs really need to get better at reducing power usage on lightweight apps and games. For example my 5800X3D pulls twice the power of the 12400 when both are capped to 60fps.

 

[DegustatoR]

That’s more exciting to me than the overvolted power hungry chips leading the pack.

Fun fact: there are ZERO reviews online of non-K(F/S) CPUs from 13/14th series.

 

[entity279]

Let's wait and see instead of doubting Intel's ability to understand what's happening with their own products.

Oh their understanding of their products is the least thing under doubt here ..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Let's wait and see instead of doubting Intel's ability to understand what's happening with their own products.

Let's not assume anything and continue being logical about this. How does Intel's explanation of high voltages track with the failure rates of the CPUs on conservative server mobos? Do these mobo's push the voltages still?

Furthermore, how will that affect performance? Hypothetically, Intel could microcode the 'high voltage' problem by halving the clockspeed - Instability solved! But then of course the CPUs would be massively underperforming the advertised product... We need to evaluate the results of their changes and the problem is only fixed when the data shows it.

 

[DegustatoR]

Do these mobo's push the voltages still?

FIVR is a part of CPUs these days and not MB so if there's an error in how it sets voltages then it's a m/c issue which can be fixed.

Furthermore, how will that affect performance?

It likely won't, the differences will probably be invisible in practice unless they will lead to significantly lower clocks.