The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff

[Xpuntar]

Considering the ratio between DVD/UMD size if Sony goes with blue ray optical variant for PSP2 their capacity would be around 9GB.

9GB is quite a lot for portable considering that even most PC games do not fill entire DL media. Heck, for quite some games normal 4GB DVD are more than enough.

I do hope that if PSP2 would have optical drive Sony would finally allow customers who would buy UMD version of the game to also download the game from PSN.

 

[MfA]

I do hope that if PSP2 would have optical drive Sony would finally allow customers who would buy UMD version of the game to also download the game from PSN.

Unless they put a RFID in the disc that would mean you could download the game and then give the disc to a friend ...

 

[Blazkowicz]

yes, SD is slow. I own a netbook that uses SD and it holds it back, though the writes are to blame, plus using an OS made with hard drives in mind (lots of small configuration files, libraries and little bits)

they could use a huge amount of RAM (512MB is cheap) and benefit from the streaming-oriented tradition of consoles.

 

[Rolf N]

Would a miniturised BRD work?

Blue laser diodes may still cost more than you'd want in a handheld. Red laser+Blu-ray's hard-coating OTOH should be manageable, and more robust than UMDs at least.

 

[Squilliam]

The down side to SD cards in that respect is transfer rate. They aren't particularly fast, and will limit loading times and how much can be streamed. I dare say that a handheld of the greatest possible pwoer would be severly bottlenecked in what it can render if it had to stream data from an SD card. Cacheing of some form will be essential if graphics are to become 'next-gen'.

Actually an SD class 6 card is about 4* faster at reading than the PSP disc which as far as I can determine from Bing is 1.25MB/s. Im sure a proprietary flash solution can do a little better than 6MB/s! Im also pretty sure that the ratio of memory -> streaming speed would be better than consoles and the random access reads would also be significantly better also.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

SD class 6 is quite costly though. I'm assuming for cheapness, you'd need fairly slow, assuming also a release in the next year or two. As for form factor, how's about a USB port? You could add two to the PSP2 for driving peripherals etc., and connecting up generic storage for media activities. Carts would look like this. Actually USB drive read speeds can be 10MBs, which would be very good - another reason carts are a good idea!

 

[Squilliam]

SD class 6 is quite costly though. I'm assuming for cheapness, you'd need fairly slow, assuming also a release in the next year or two. As for form factor, how's about a USB port? You could add two to the PSP2 for driving peripherals etc., and connecting up generic storage for media activities. Carts would look like this. Actually USB drive read speeds can be 10MBs, which would be very good - another reason carts are a good idea!

Even a class 2 is ~50% faster than a UMD. Im sure they can manage a 2.5MB transfer rate on the flash cartridge. I would suggest a USB port is a little too open in terms of piracy for content delivery, but something which looks like a slightly thinner version of compact flash might work out and it ought to give them more data pins for faster data delivery too. They have flash ports in pretty much everything nowadays and I wouldn't be surprised if it used one of the common form factors if not being unable to be read by anything other than the PSP2 itself.

 

[NeoTechni]

The stupid ... it's hurting me ...

Funny, I feel the same way about anyone saying they'll ditch physical mediums
ESPECIALLY after the retailer boycotts of the Go.

Your idea of prohibitive is different than Nintendo's, I guess.

Not really. They don't make carts as large as even some of the smallest PSP games, because it would be prohibitively expensive.

You said X86 is always cheaper and faster.

And? I didn't say it was better for games

Who's tried? Who's "they"?

There has been an emulator released with extremely high system requirements, works with very few games.

You said no netbook could emulate the PSP. The people who would be best able to do this, Sony, haven't tried afaik.

The fact that you aren't aware of a homebrew PSP emu that works on netbooks isn't proof that it can't be done.

Hence why I asked for some proof.
If you guys cant show me an emulator working on portable hardware...

PS3 cant even emulate PS2.

[Edit] Actually, I just checked. There are still 25 originals for sale on Live. So yes, they do.[/Edit]

*facepalm* No, they stopped. They discontinued that already, those 25 are all that will ever be on there.

Perhaps you could question him, and find out what it is that rules out doing PSP GPU work on a programmable GPU?

Given darkblus claim that it had a HAL and that made it easy to emulate since you just emulate the HAL and not the H... And there is no actual HAL, that says it can't be emulated as easily as darkblus claims.

Again, look at the status of PS3s PS2 emulator for an example of how well Sony works.

If costs are an issue, you sure as heck wouldn't consider putting a UMD drive on the thing.

UMD is cheap.

I don't think you understand Sony.

It makes the most sense for them to use faster versions of the same hardware.
-Free BC, doesn't even cost power/space
-Continued profit of the PSN
-No developmental learning curve
-No huge R&D time/cost
-Wii/DS showed it's profitable (since you seem to like that)

On they other hand, they aren't going to go with outdated hardware that's unsuited to their aims just to keep a minority of PSP fans happy.

Except it's the majority that prefer UMD even according to Sony, and it's neither outdated nor unsuited for their aims.
Switching from UMD would be unsuited for their aims.

My point, which you repeatedly fail to address or even recognise, is that carts have never been a burden for the most successful handhelds ever made,

I didn't fail to address that or recognise it.
Profits do not indicate quality
Carts have been a burden on CONSOLES. PSP wasnt meant to be just a handheld, it was meant to be a portable console. Games as large as PSPs games couldnt have been done on carts. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM would have been crippled down to smaller sizes to minimize publishing costs. And that would have been a waste of PSPs hardware. PSP2 will only have bigger games, making carts even more stupid to use.

Don't talk about obtuse when you're ignoring the very reason consoles switched from carts.

But it does prove that carts can be successful, disproving your theory!

Not really. Do you see current or last gen consoles that stuck with carts? PSP was pretty much in the same technological generation as PS2/XBOX/Wii/DC/GCN. PSP2 will be even closer to PS3/360. You really think carts make ANY sense? Its a step backwards!

Again, the point you blindly ignore because it blows your theory to pieces

I HAVE addressed that point. DS games are MANY times smaller than PSP games, what works for DS DOESNT work for PSP. (When I originally said it, I included iphone games in the comment) Gameboy color being profitable doesnt blow my theory out of the water when the largest game it had was what, 2 Megabytes? OH WOW that certainly proves PSP could have used GBC carts!

Again, you seem to be strugging with the discussion here. This is a thread about handhelds, right?

See comment re: PSP was pretty much in the same technological generation as PS2/XBOX/Wii/DC/GCN. It makes no sense to compare PSP to Gameboy color/DS when the way the games are made are in no way similar.

My point, which in several attempts has failed to coax an actual response from you

And you've gotten one before. Saying you haven't doesn't erase it from the board.
What works for DS doesnt mean it works for anything else
Profits do not mean it works.

Hell, did you know DS cards get slower and slower the bigger they are?

Streaming also brought up another challenge for us during development. We began the project with the assumption we’d be using a 512 Mbit (64 MB) cartridge, so our memory map was crafted under those constraints. Later Nintendo announced the 1Gbit (128 MB) cart was available but there was a catch. Isn’t there always?

This larger cart’s transfer speed was 25% slower than the 512 cart. Yikes!

Considering the ratio between DVD/UMD size if Sony goes with blue ray optical variant for PSP2 their capacity would be around 9GB.

9GB is quite a lot for portable considering that even most PC games do not fill entire DL media. Heck, for quite some games normal 4GB DVD are more than enough.

I do hope that if PSP2 would have optical drive Sony would finally allow customers who would buy UMD version of the game to also download the game from PSN.

Agreed. That would be the best thing for PSP2. 9 GB would be a ton of space, moreso than devs would use for downloadable games (Sony is even discouraging PS3 downloadable games from getting anywhere near that large)

 

[eastmen]

SD class 6 is quite costly though. I'm assuming for cheapness, you'd need fairly slow, assuming also a release in the next year or two. As for form factor, how's about a USB port? You could add two to the PSP2 for driving peripherals etc., and connecting up generic storage for media activities. Carts would look like this. Actually USB drive read speeds can be 10MBs, which would be very good - another reason carts are a good idea!

How big of a game are we talking about ?

My idea is that consumers buy the memory card to keep games on, the psp2 would come with a pool of memory already though.


So here is what you can do. You can go with SDHC cards

Class 4 8 GIG card transfer rate 4MB/s $18 to consumer
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134859

Class 6 8 GIG card transfer rate 6MB/s $18 bucks to consumer
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820183211

Class 6 16 gig transfer rate 6MB/s $32
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211300

If thats to big for a portable you can go micro sd

Class 6 8 gig transfer rate 6MB/s $18 bucks
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820183244


And prices will only come down through out the generation of the hand held.

Considering we'd most likely have games ranging from 50 megs up to 8 gigs the 16 gig cards would be able to hold a few games. On the flip side they can even put in two memory card slots in place of the umd drive.

Of curse this being sony they would most likely use their own memory standard that would be very expensive.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Carts have been a burden on CONSOLES. PSP wasnt meant to be just a handheld, it was meant to be a portable console.

That's just mincing words. the claim PSP isn't a handheld but a portable console is a definition you've made up! It's a portable gaming and media platofrm, whether one wants to call it a handheld or console. As such it needs to satisfy certain criteria for offering games and system performance (battery life) to the standard wanted by Sony.

Games as large as PSPs games couldnt have been done on carts. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM would have been crippled down to smaller sizes to minimize publishing costs.

Again, I agree. Again, what was an issue then isn't such an issue now. You are looking at the technological state of media at PSP's introduction and applying that to current and future tech, not factoring in the shifting landscape of technology. Flash media has exploded as a technology. Thus we should forgo all legacy considerations and view design of a new portable media device in the current landscape.

And that would have been a waste of PSPs hardware. PSP2 will only have bigger games.

But how much bigger?! You're suggesting 9GBs is a good size, but how much do we really think PSP2 is going to need? Are developers actually going to create games larger than PS2/XB, which managed on 4.5 GBs? Given how handheld gaming is played, the technolgies of texture compression, the limited screen resolution etc., if you're to convince me that PSP2 will need significantly more capacity, you'll need to present some decent examples. XB360 has greatly improved on XB with a medium that's only doubled in capacity. If PSP games are typically 500MBs, an extrapolation from there would suggest 2GBs would be sufficient for most PSP2 titles. And 4GBs wouldn't be prohibitively expensive for cart-based games. Alternatively one could argue that taking current console performance to the handheld, we'd want a quarter of PS3's capacity (as PSP was 1/4 PS2's capacity) which would be ~6 GBs,a quarter of a single layer BRD (and many PS3 titles aren't using much beyond a DVDs worth of data as we all know, so a quarter of that would be 2 GBs.)

Not really. Do you see current or last gen consoles that stuck with carts?

Changing technological landscape...

Profits do not mean it works.

Ha ha ha ha ha! So you're saying Sony are aiming for a lossy platform? The whole point of these platforms is to turn a profit. If carts = profit, then it works. Maybe not for you and what you personally want from a portable console, but for Sony they'd much rather take a 'broken' cart method if it means returns like Nintendo's.

Hell, did you know DS cards get slower and slower the bigger they are?

You know that landscape of the technological kind...

(Sony is even discouraging PS3 downloadable games from getting anywhere near that large)

This is an interesting point. Look at what XB and PS3 are achieving with download titles <2GBs. Isn't that a pretty convincing argument that PSP2 won't need multiple GBs of media? 2GBs should be ample, based on a comparison of the current HD consoles storage requirements and the idea that portable games are rendering lesser assets to a smaller screen.

 

[NeoTechni]

That's just mincing words. the claim PSP isn't a handheld but a portable console is a definition you've made up!

*rollseyes* No, it's not one I made up. It's one Sony used even before PSP came out. Along with the whole, bringing handheld gaming out of the ghetto.

As such it needs to satisfy certain criteria for offering games and system performance (battery life) to the standard wanted by Sony.

And it does. It even has better battery life than my ipod touch in gaming, and you seem to feel it was a success

You are looking at the technological state of media at PSP's introduction and applying that to current and future tech

You think flash can replace discs for games larger than PSPs current largest?

, not factoring in the shifting landscape of technology.

You seem to be not factoring in the same shifting landscape in terms of PSP game size.

But how much bigger?! You're suggesting 9GBs is a good size, but how much do we really think PSP2 is going to need? Are developers actually going to create games larger than PS2/XB, which managed on 4.5 GBs?

Yes. PS2/XBOX/Wii got 9 GB games. PSP is roughly as powerful as them, PSP2 will be closer to PS3/360, undoubtedly it will have games as large.

the limited screen resolution etc

I don't see that as a factor.
PS2/XBOX/Wii got 9 GB games, and were played mostly in 640*480.
Sony has already made PSP a portable console with TV out, and improved upon that in future models.
I would imagine the next gen PSP will have fullscreen TV out, and a minimum of 480p support, though I'd hope for 720p.
PSP2's LCD will more than likely be higher res as well. Expecting a 480p LCD isn't that outrageous, there are smart phones with higher resolutions.

You seem to be not factoring in the same shifting landscape in terms of screen resolutions for portables.

XB360 has greatly improved on XB with a medium that's only doubled in capacity

Eh? XBOX360 DVDs hold LESS than XBOX DVDs!!!
There are dual layered XBOX games.
XBOX360 devotes ~1 GIGABYTE towards the copy protection!

And 4GBs wouldn't be prohibitively expensive for cart-based games.

Yes it would be

Ha ha ha ha ha! So you're saying Sony are aiming for a lossy platform?

No.

The whole point of these platforms is to turn a profit. If carts = profit, then it works.

UMDs are profiting, therefore they work

This is an interesting point. Look at what XB and PS3 are achieving with download titles <2GBs. Isn't that a pretty convincing argument that PSP2 won't need multiple GBs of media?

Except PSP2 will. More than what UMD currently offers.
And no, that's not a convincing argument PSP wont need as much space, those downloadables tend to be minigames in comparison to full PSP games.

2GBs should be ample

UMD already is ~2 GB. PSP2 will need more. There are already some PSP games that come on 2 UMDs!
You seem to be not factoring in the same shifting landscape in terms of PSP game size.

Going to 9 GB would only be 2 and a half times bigger than the current largest, Sony usually does bigger jumps

 

[darkblu]

Not really. They don't make carts as large as even some of the smallest PSP games, because it would be prohibitively expensive.

biggest NDS cart: 512MB
wipeout pure: 253MB

There has been an emulator released with extremely high system requirements, works with very few games.

There's an emulator out the box in the SDK. It uses OGL to emulate your unemulatable GE.

Given darkblus claim that it had a HAL and that made it easy to emulate since you just emulate the HAL and not the H... And there is no actual HAL, that says it can't be emulated as easily as darkblus claims.

Keep on repeating that if it actually makes you feel better.

 

[NeoTechni]

biggest NDS cart: 512MB
wipeout pure: 253MB

The wikipedia article says the 512 MB one isnt even out yet! And it's also going to be a game you said didn't count as using the space properly, as it's a japanese RPG filled with FMV.
Way to go. Now, look at how many DS games use the 256 MB one (1! No wonder I missed it) versus smaller ones, what does that tell you of its cost?
The previous max was 128 MB. All but 1 game is that or smaller.

There's an emulator out the box in the SDK. It uses OGL to emulate your unemulatable GE.

I didn't say it was unemulateable. I said it was unemulateable on cheap, portable/not power sucking hardware. Nice try.

Keep on repeating that if it actually makes you feel better.

You havent proven otherwise despite my requests. My repeating it is as much evidence as you've provided.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes. PS2/XBOX/Wii got 9 GB games.

If you're going to use fringe cases, then yes. However, typical game sizes were far smaller than the 9GB theoretical maxmium. In fact precious few titles were dual-layer DVDs. GC got away with discs smaller than PSPs, for example. Most games on PSP are well below the 1.8GB maxmimum. 2GBs was needed for the movie format. If it weren't for the desire to play movies, I wouldn't have been surprised if Sony had gone carts too.

PSP is roughly as powerful as them, PSP2 will be closer to PS3/360, undoubtedly it will have games as large.

Undoubtedly? Based on what? An assessment that the handheld gaming market wants epic experiences? Maybe you should list some current games and their sizes that would warrant multigigabyte equivalents on PSP2. GTA was fit onto PSP with 1/4 the capacity of PS2, for example. Current HD games are typically 5-6GBs from what we've seen.

I don't see that as a factor.
PS2/XBOX/Wii got 9 GB games...and were played mostly in 640*480.

If anyone really wants to go to town creating an epic on a cart-based console, there'll be ways to do it. MS didn't put a blue-laser drive in XB360 to accomodate the few titles that otherwise had to straddle multiple disks. You don't have to design a system to fit the very worst case situation. Instead you create a balanced system that serves the typical use, and leave the developers to decided if they want to push the limits or not.

You seem to be not factoring in the same shifting landscape in terms of screen resolutions for portables.

They're going to be 720p?

Eh? XBOX360 DVDs hold LESS than XBOX DVDs!!!
There are dual layered XBOX games.

Again, your referring to extreme cases. Typically XB games were single layer DVDs, while XB360 is generally using larger. If that's not the case, it only goes to show how the media requirements aren't increasing that significantly. After all from XB to XB360 we had a reduction in maximum storage capacity yet with vastly improved games. By that same token, PSP2 will be able to produce bigger, better games than PSP using a slightly smaller disk.

Let's not just chase unfounded speculation though. Let's do some real research, and get some real numbers. You say PSP is ~PS2/XB in terms of performance, no? Ergo it needs ~1/2 the storage capacity to maximise the hardware. Thus 2GBs of UMD relative to 4GBs of single layer DVD from the home consoles. Following that reasoning, PSP2 will need c. half of the XB360's storage capacity. That is currently 8GBs, so PSP2 would need 4GBs. 2GBs would never cut it, no?
But when we look at real XB360 game sizes from HDD installs, we see an average of about 6GBs. Half of that would be 3GBs. Ergo a 3GB media would be sufficient to get XB360 games downscaled onto PSP2. And that's the larger games. Many XB games would fit onto 2GBs in a straight halving of console file-size extrapolation for the handheld's...sorry, portable console's...don't want to confuse people with what we're talking about here...A straight halving extrapolation would place PSP2's media requirements at 3GBs. Is it unreasonable to think that given a 2GB limit, devs wouldn't be able to work with it?

Yes it would be

Give some numbers. Current prices suggest 4GB would be ~$7. In a year's time, when PSP2 launches (and quite possibly later seeing as we've heard nothing yet), $3.50. After another year, less than two dollars. Now as you've referenced extreme cases in your examples from previous consoles, which had very few dual-layer DVD games, you could argue that $2 per game is too much. But IMO 4GB won't be needed for most titles. SE might release some 4 or 8GB games, but typical games, something of Warhawk's scale perhaps, or Trine, let alone the usual handheld designed titles, will fit onto 2GBs. Clearly affordable, and as noted, 4GBs wouldn't break the bank either. Just sell the games at $5 more to recover costs, and offer download versions to offset losses due to unsold stock. it's not as economical as $1 disks I agree, but that doesn't make it unworkable.

Profits do not mean it works.

The whole point of these platforms is to turn a profit. If carts = profit, then it works.

UMDs are profiting, therefore they work

I'll leave this one to speak for itself...

Except PSP2 will.

Not if devs don't want to create 9GB monsters to sell at $60 a pop. The handheld market isn't the same as the console market. People don't have the same gaming habits and don't expect to spend the same price as a console game on a portable game. Hell, Apple is conditioning people to expect portable gaming to be dirt cheap!

Going to 9 GB would only be 2 and a half times bigger than the current largest, Sony usually does bigger jumps

Sony doesn't usually do anything regards handhelds, because they only have one. They're not going to chuck in a 9GB optical just for the sake of having big storage if their research shows typical requirements for a game on a next-gen handheld won't need more than 4GBs. Good engineering means assertaining what you need to do a job and then building to that spec. Kutaragi is no longer at the helm to develop over-spec'd hardware that is too costly for anyone to use to its full potential, so it's unlikely to happen again.

 

[darkblu]

The wikipedia article says the 512 MB one isnt even out yet! And it's also going to be a game you said didn't count as using the space properly, as it's a japanese RPG filled with FMV. Way to go.

Nice nosedive. Contrary to your argument that UMD's volume is quintessential to the quality of current gen games, the content of the DS cart is irrelevant in this case - it could be filled with badly-encoded mp3s and it'd still disprove your original claim - clearly the cost of such a big cart did not prohibit a publisher from using it for a commercial title. Yes, the game is coming out this spring, but the developer has already publicly announced the size of the cart (that's why it's in wiki).

Now, look at how many DS games use the 256 MB one (1! No wonder I missed it) versus smaller ones, what does that tell you of its cost?

That it's not prohibitively expensive to release commercial games on?

I didn't say it was unemulateable. I said it was unemulateable on cheap, portable/not power sucking hardware. Nice try.

Define 'cheap, portable/not power sucking'. Until then, nice try.

You havent proven otherwise despite my requests. My repeating it is as much evidence as you've provided.

Me proving that to you requires that you had at least some understanding of the matter. You haven't demonstrated to know the first thing about developing commercial games on the platform (on the contrary - that 'licensed devs can program ME' claim was a good laugh). I have no reason to believe you would be able to understand any arguments from the POV of commercial development, and why sony providing a few sw layers out of the box to work with the GE would effectively serve as HAL for any successor. But as I already mentioned, feel free to believe whatever you like. I sincerely enjoy your posts on everything psp-related.

 

[NeoTechni]

If you're going to use fringe cases, then yes.

Yea. There will be "fringe cases" on PSP2.
Sony didn't say no to 50 GB BRDs or dual layered DVDs on PS2 cause they'd only be in "fringe cases"

GC got away with discs smaller than PSPs,

That doesnt mean they should go with less though
GCN (hell, even Wii) only has as much VRAM as PSP does. PSP2 will have many times more.

for example. Most games on PSP are well below the 1.8GB maxmimum.

I have many that are near 1.8, the big named games tend to be

2GBs was needed for the movie format. If it weren't for the desire to play movies, I wouldn't have been surprised if Sony had gone carts too.

No, Completely wrong. Been over that before.

An assessment that the handheld gaming market wants epic experiences?

That is the point of PSP.

Maybe you should list some current games and their sizes that would warrant multigigabyte equivalents on PSP2. GTA was fit onto PSP with 1/4 the capacity of PS2, for example.

PSP2 will be more powerful than systems that already use 9 GB. Saying PSP2 games will use that is not outrageous.

They're going to be 720p?

I thought I said I hope so.

But in all likelihood yes. It'll definitely be more capable of it than Wii, since Wii only has as much VRAM as PSP1 does.
ANY increase in VRAM (by the standard factors of 2^n) would make it capable of 720p, and it's safe to assume it'll be more than a simple doubling of VRAM. Sticking with 480p would be kind of last gen.

Again, your referring to extreme cases.

So?

By that same token, PSP2 will be able to produce bigger, better games than PSP using a slightly smaller disk.

Except 360 did so by using more compression, which isnt suitable for a handheld as it uses more power, and it was also done at the cost of more multi disced games.

Let's not just chase unfounded speculation though. Let's do some real research

Then please stop claiming UMD was made for movies. Its a lie.

You say PSP is ~PS2/XB in terms of performance, no? Ergo it needs ~1/2 the storage capacity to maximise the hardware. Thus 2GBs of UMD relative to 4GBs of single layer DVD from the home consoles. Following that reasoning,

Why would you use that reasoning? It's not logical.

PSP2 will be more powerful than systems that already used 9GB, saying it will use 9 GB is not outrageous

But when we look at real XB360 game sizes from HDD installs,

They are somewhat compressed.

Current prices [/URL]suggest 4GB would be ~$7.

Many times more expensive than discs.

In a year's time, when PSP2 launches (and quite possibly later seeing as we've heard nothing yet), $3.50.

Still, more than double the cost of a disc

The handheld market isn't the same as the console market. People don't have the same gaming habits

They do on PSP. That was its point

Contrary to your argument that UMD's volume is quintessential to the quality of current gen games, the content of the DS cart is irrelevant in this case

Does the existence of the object have relevance? Your 512 MB card doesnt exist yet
Why is the content not relevant, when it was my example the content was relevant now that its your example its not relevant?

That it's not prohibitively expensive to release commercial games on?

Funny, it tells me the exact opposite.

Define 'cheap, portable/not power sucking'. Until then, nice try.

Roughly the cost of PSP was at launch, handheld, and doesnt require a battery as large as a laptop. Common sense stuff. If it takes even a laptop to emulate it, that's too big/expensive.

Me proving that to you requires that you had at least some understanding of the matter.

I understood perfectly. When you said HAL I thought you meant like directx on the XBOX where devs HAD to use it, and thus to emulate the graphics you just emulate the HAL. Cause thats what would make sense given your claims that to emulate the GPU you could just emulate the HAL.

Then you claimed it wasnt like that, thus you cant emulate the graphics by emulating what you claim to be the HAL. Any game that doesnt use it wouldnt be emulated.

(on the contrary - that 'licensed devs can program ME' claim was a good laugh)

You've yet to provide proof to the contrary. So your word is no more evidence than my own. Hell I proved there is access to it, you havent proven there isnt.

I've had a developER I among many others trust, tell me you were wrong. I have no reason to believe you know anything about PSP development.

 

[MfA]

Funny, I feel the same way about anyone saying they'll ditch physical mediums

Here is what you replied to : "Sony will be thinking more along the lines of Gameboy and Appstore than minidisk and UMD."

So ... did he say they will ditch physical media? No, he said they will use carts and download services together.

PS. your quoting is no better than your reading comprehension BTW ... only the first sentence you quoted in your post was by me.

 

[eastmen]

Quote:NeoTechni



And it does. It even has better battery life than my ipod touch in gaming, and you seem to feel it was a success

ipod touch 900mah
psp fat (1000) 1800mah
psp slim(2000) 1200mah


I don't know which you own. But the psp 2000 did have a shrink on the chips used and a new screen.

You can actually buy up to a 3000mah battery for a psp.

Btw my zune hd has a 660mah battery and lasts as long playing pgr as my psp 2000 lasts playing gow.

 

[MfA]

Class 4 8 GIG card transfer rate 4MB/s $18 to consumer

Even some cheap 2 GB cards will do 20 MB/s sequential read (and larger cards more).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yea. There will be "fringe cases" on PSP2.
Sony didn't say no to 50 GB BRDs or dual layered DVDs on PS2 cause they'd only be in "fringe cases"

50GB BRDs are required for movies. Hardly any PS3 games need as much as a single layer. Most use little more than a DVD, and many are cross-platform. 50GBs isn't needed for PS3, but if it's there, devs will make use of it if it's economical to do so. If it weren't for wanting to establish the BRD movie format, or Kutaragi wanting to be cutting-edge in everything, PS3 could have launched with DVD and offered a very similar gaming experience to now.

Except 360 did so by using more compression, which isnt suitable for a handheld as it uses more power, and it was also done at the cost of more multi disced games.

Yes, you've got me there. I concede this point and clearly I didn't think it through. Hardware texture compression support is a real power drain. Better to spin an optical disk at high speeds to match the transfer rate of flash storage, using the larger capacities to store less compressed data, and shift that read head back and forth. That's the ideal power-efficient portable system which is why everyone else, Apple, Nintendo, netbooks creators, is pursuing optical and mechanical formats.

PSP2 will be more powerful than systems that already used 9GB, saying it will use 9 GB is not outrageous

Well, the argument can be ended here, as it's circular at this point.

To sum it up, you are looking at the progress of technology, seeing every generation requires larger capacities to fit in more game, and extrapolating a need for PSP2 to have 9GBs of media available to support the largest games the system is likely to have. As a result, flash media isn't acceptible because to reach the largest sizes, 8GBs, it'd cost too much. In fact you are saying even small sized flash would cost too much because it'll still be more expensive than pressing a UMD. In a sentence..."PSP2 will need multiple gigabytes for its games, which will be too expensive for flash, hence Sony will have to use an optical disc format."

By my reckoning though, the handheld landscape is different to the console landscape, and you can't follow events in the console space to determine what'll happen with handhelds. The types of games people prefer to play tend to be smaller, 'pick up and play', and cheaper. Although PSP has more console-like titles, sales of these titles tended to be incomparable to their console counterparts. eg. GTA is a top selling PSP title, but sold to a far smaller percentage of the install base relative to the conosle iterations. Though PSP attracted some console gamers who want console gaming on the go, it seems that format doesn't work particularly well for handheld games, especially considering the developmet costs involved. Looking at PSP2 from the perspective of a software developer, investing that much on a portable title seems risky. I would rather create smaller, cheaper titles to be sold at a lower price which fits the current and future handheld gaming markets. If the intention of PSP2 is to move the machine around and connect it to TVs, offering a home console experience both on-the-go and in-the-home-on-the-TV, then I'd agree with you, but that's not what handheld gaming is, certainly not what PSP was designed for as a portable console because it didn't launch with TV out, and I doubt Sony is going to go for that. Although they might. As such, I see the typical PSP2 title being developed at around 2GBs in size, maybe 4GBs. Although these carts would cost more to produce than UMDs, just as NDS carts cost more than UMDs to press it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive such that publishers would avoid the format. Indeed, limiting the game developers to 2GBs of content instead of letting them create 8GBs worth will probably save more money than reducing $2 per game of production costs. In a sentence..."handheld gaming will not attract many epic titles, and developers/publishers will target the handheld market with cheaper titles than their console efforts, meaning capacities will be set by software intentions and not hardware trends, so that, factoring in also the parallel download distribution model, games will be unlikely to exceed 4GBs, with the majority being smaller, and this size of cart is affordable and financially acceptible making it the prefered choice for a handheld."

I'm leaving my position at that and will leave readers to decide who they side with.