The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff

[NeoTechni]

50GB BRDs are required for movies.

No, they came out on 25GB for the longest times

I have 2 PS3 games that came on a dual layered Bluray. You saying Sony shouldn't have used it so those games couldn't have existed (in their current form at least)?

Hardly any PS3 games need as much as a single layer.

Now you're underestimating.
If you've got actual figures go ahead. But I've seen even launch titles of 20 GB.
Multiplatform titles arent even a good example

To sum it up, you are looking at the progress of technology, seeing every generation requires larger capacities to fit in more game, and extrapolating a need for PSP2 to have 9GBs

Sort of. 9 GB wasn't chosen specifically. Just that Sony upgrading UMD is the most logical solution to a problem. Either via more layers, or switching to Bluray, which would simply result in ~9 GB. And PSP1 games are already occupying 2 discs, an increase of 2.5 times the largest PSP game while isn't an exponential increase like we're used to, is still enough for a handheld. Combined with, it will be more powerful than other systems that used that much space.

As a result, flash media isn't acceptible

It never was and never will be. Optical will always be many times cheaper.
A sheet of stamped glass will always be many times cheaper than circuitry with gold connector fingers (example) Its the whole reason we switched to optical, the same reason PSP did.

By my reckoning though, the handheld landscape is different to the console landscape,

Not with PSP, the whole point of PSP is to bridge that gap
Hell, PSP is superior to the Wii in some regards.
PSP had features at/near launch I'm still waiting for 360 to get

The types of games people prefer to play tend to be smaller, 'pick up and play', and cheaper.

The whole point of PSP is not to fall into that ghetto.
PSPs best games weren't smaller, pick up and play.
They were full console experiences you take on the road.

Although PSP has more console-like titles, sales of these titles tended to be incomparable to their console counterparts. eg. GTA is a top selling PSP title, but sold to a far smaller percentage of the install base relative to the conosle iterations.

Thats because the console versions were out years before.
Compare something like Crisis Core.
Nor are sales relevant. Are you saying since the games didnt sell well they werent worth making, and thus anyone who enjoyed them doesn't matter?
There are lots of games than fill a UMD, most of PSPs better titles do.
And developers, like fish, expand to fit the resources they are given. Give them 9 GB, they will use it. And that's far too inconvenient for downloads.

Though PSP attracted some console gamers who want console gaming on the go, it seems that format doesn't work particularly well for handheld games, especially considering the development costs involved

If that was true, then there will be no PSP2 for you to worry about

. If the intention of PSP2 is to move the machine around and connect it to TVs, offering a home console experience both on-the-go and in-the-home-on-the-TV, then I'd agree with you, but that's not what handheld gaming is

But that is what PSP is designed for. Hence the TV out on the slim, improved TV out on the slim/brite, and then the controller syncing on the Go. Sony is constantly upgrading the TV out with each major hardware revision. The next logical step is fullscreen and possibly HD

In a sentence..."handheld gaming will not attract many epic titles

PSP does though.


Another reason PSP cant go DD only: http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/...-devs-and-games-updated-15-02-10/m-p/44726859
The DD copies are fraught with glitches the UMD versions don't have

 

[eastmen]

No, they came out on 25GB for the longest times

I have 2 PS3 games that came on a dual layered Bluray. You saying Sony shouldn't have used it so those games couldn't have existed (in their current form at least)?

What two games are those and what is the amount of FMV used compared to Dual layer dvd games. What is the amount of duplicated data to speed load and transfer rates ?

Now you're underestimating.
If you've got actual figures go ahead. But I've seen even launch titles of 20 GB.
Multiplatform titles arent even a good example

Once again do these titles actualy use 20 gigs for the game are is it filled with duplicated data and fmv. These are things you wouldn't need on a portable because carts would transfer at much faster rates than an optical drive.

Sort of. 9 GB wasn't chosen specifically. Just that Sony upgrading UMD is the most logical solution to a problem. Either via more layers, or switching to Bluray, which would simply result in ~9 GB. And PSP1 games are already occupying 2 discs, an increase of 2.5 times the largest PSP game while isn't an exponential increase like we're used to, is still enough for a handheld. Combined with, it will be more powerful than other systems that used that much space.

UMD is dead in its current state. They can't spin the disc faster and so the 1.4MB/s transfer rate wont be fast enough. Adding more layers will only slow it down even more. The only thing to do is to go with a new form of umd that has higher transfer rates per rotation which will be like starting from scratch as the new parts would start out being very expensive , same with going to a blue laser diode.

I'm not sure what psp games are using two discs. Are they fmv heavy ?

It never was and never will be. Optical will always be many times cheaper.
A sheet of stamped glass will always be many times cheaper than circuitry with gold connector fingers (example) Its the whole reason we switched to optical, the same reason PSP did.

Things change. A 1.4MB/s transfer rate would be way to slow on a next gen console. UMD is out so its either go through the costs of developing a fast enough optical format which costs mony and time or to take a flash based format and adapt it to what you want.

Your also making the mistake of thinking devs will be the ones who have to pay for the flash /cart based system. That is only one way they might go.

Not with PSP, the whole point of PSP is to bridge that gap
Hell, PSP is superior to the Wii in some regards.
PSP had features at/near launch I'm still waiting for 360 to get

I'd love to hear these features that your waiting for on the 360. Love to hear it.

The whole point of PSP is not to fall into that ghetto.
PSPs best games weren't smaller, pick up and play.
They were full console experiences you take on the road.

SO is this why the psp has sold a fraction of what the DS has sold ?

I would think Sony would want to apeal to everyone and if you can already get high def games that are epic like fall out 3 and oblivion and fable 3 and what have you on single dvds constrained to 6.8 gig capcitys why can't you do the same on a handheld that will obviously have sub hd resolutions and thus not need the same quality of textures seen in the high def games.

Thats because the console versions were out years before.
Compare something like Crisis Core.
Nor are sales relevant. Are you saying since the games didnt sell well they werent worth making, and thus anyone who enjoyed them doesn't matter?
There are lots of games than fill a UMD, most of PSPs better titles do.
And developers, like fish, expand to fit the resources they are given. Give them 9 GB, they will use it. And that's far too inconvenient for downloads.

If a game didn't sell well then it wasn't worth making at least to the publisher.

And no 9 gigs isn't to inconvenient for downloads.

But that is what PSP is designed for. Hence the TV out on the slim, improved TV out on the slim/brite, and then the controller syncing on the Go. Sony is constantly upgrading the TV out with each major hardware revision. The next logical step is fullscreen and possibly HD

my zune hd is able to do 720P video without an optical format. In fact not only can it do 720p video but the battery dispite being half the size or smaller(depending on what psp model you compare it to) lasts even longer than my psp while doing it.

Every devie is getting to the point of displaying 720p and its not a huge step to 1080p either. Sony focusing on trying to sell an optical format disc to watch on a psp2is silly. They will enhance and expand thier psn offerings and make them work on all thier platforms.

Another reason PSP cant go DD only: http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/...-devs-and-games-updated-15-02-10/m-p/44726859
The DD copies are fraught with glitches the UMD versions don't have

So just becase sony has fucked up thier DD a new psp can't go DD . A platform that is already more popular than the psp is already DD and thats the iphone. I don't see huge problms with xbox live arcade or psn games either.

DD is the future. It will only move foward and get better.

 

[NeoTechni]

What two games are those and what is the amount of FMV used compared to Dual layer dvd games. What is the amount of duplicated data to speed load and transfer rates ?

The only FMV in LittleBigPlanet was the tutorials, MGS4 only had a few mock advertisings. Nor is it relevant. Even if the game was 100% FMV, its still using the space
Duplicated data also does not help load times/transfer rates on bluray as the load time is constant no matter where it is on the disc, unlike DVD

These are things you wouldn't need on a portable because carts would transfer at much faster rates than an optical drive.

At the cost of capacity, which is needed for a system as powerful as PSP

UMD is dead in its current state.

No. They are outselling the downloadable versions.

They can't spin the disc faster and so the 1.4MB/s transfer rate wont be fast enough.

UMD2 would not be bound by the limitations of UMD1.

I'm not sure what psp games are using two discs. Are they fmv heavy ?

As was previously stated, what the space was used for is irrelevant. Are you saying the games do not deserve to exist if they use too much FMV? That you've never played a game where FMV helped the game or story?

Your also making the mistake of thinking devs will be the ones who have to pay for the flash /cart based system

I didn't make that mistake. I considered both options. Either way someone pays.
If we pay, it = less sales.

I'd love to hear these features that your waiting for on the 360. Love to hear it.

http://sites.google.com/site/neotechni/Home/suggestions#TOC-Software1

SO is this why the psp has sold a fraction of what the DS has sold ?

Lower costs = higher sales
sales =/= quality
What works for DS doesnt mean itll work for PSP. They are completely different

I would think Sony would want to apeal to everyone

Thus they wont abandon the 75% of people according to their own survey that prefer UMD or the 1/3 that don't have PSN/broadband.

And no 9 gigs isn't to inconvenient for downloads.

Yes it is. Especially on a something called portable that shouldnt require a PC.
There are places with monthly quotas only double that size.

my zune hd is able to do 720P video without an optical format.

And?

So just becase sony has fucked up thier DD a new psp can't go DD

Yes. Among many other reasons

A platform that is already more popular than the psp is already DD and thats the iphone.

iphone games are A LOT smaller than PSP games though. What works for iphone doesnt work for anything else. iphone games arent even the same kind of games PSP has.

Just cause you guys dont like PSP doesnt make it a failure. There are more PSPs out there than iphones. And PSP is currently the top selling system in japan, has been for months. PSP Go has been the worst selling since its launch rush. Now you tell me what the people in charge get from those results, given the biggest difference between PSP and Go is the UMD drive, and other systems with more expensive versions are not being effected by the price difference. UMD is selling better than you guys want to believe for irrational reasons.

 

[eastmen]

The only FMV in LittleBigPlanet was the tutorials, MGS4 only had a few mock advertisings. Nor is it relevant. Even if the game was 100% FMV, its still using the space

Doesn't metal gear solid use Uncompressed 5.1 sound . Its been talked about here before I think but a japanese site has reportedthat 1/4th of the game's size is the audio.

I can't find out anything about the disc size on LBP if you have a link o anywhere talking about the size of the game that be great.

Duplicated data also does not help load times/transfer rates on bluray as the load time is constant no matter where it is on the disc, unlike DVD

So seek times don't affect transfer rates ? Disc spin up time and spin down time doesn't affect transfer rates ? The less time you spend seeking the better off you are. The extra bluray space avalible allows you to bundle data closer together for optimal transfer rates.

At the cost of capacity, which is needed for a system as powerful as PSP

Why is that. You state its as powerfull as a gamecube , ps2 , xbox . I seem to remember those systems being limited to 1.4gig to 8.4gig. In fact some gamecube games looked better than ps2 games dispite being limited to 1.4gigs.

No. They are outselling the downloadable versions.

Because the go is a crappy product and they are giving away umds at cut throat prices. Last time I was in bestbuy they had no umds and the last time I saw them at a bestbuy they were all on sale for $7 and under. Some as low a $2 bucks. The only umds are the games and they only sell well ecause they are the only way to get the games for the original psp units .

UMD2 would not be bound by the limitations of UMD1.

Sure it would. You still have to spin a disc = uses much more power than flash . You still have a fragile disc = discs stop reading making games unpalyable. You will still have low transfer rates and seek times. You will still have bad battery life.

These are all limitations of any optical format. UMD2 will be no diffrent.

As was previously stated, what the space was used for is irrelevant. Are you saying the games do not deserve to exist if they use too much FMV? That you've never played a game where FMV helped the game or story?

Well i've never played a game where FMV helped the game or story. But tahts my opinon

However there is no reason it can't be done with in game cut scenes.

Developers aren't stupid if they are given a 4 gig format at the launch of a next gen handheld they wont go and want to put 12 gigs of fmv on it. They will design a game that graphicly looks great and has in game great looking cut scenes. I'm sure they will love the greater transfer rate nd battery life that it would afford them.

I didn't make that mistake. I considered both options. Either way someone pays.
If we pay, it = less sales.

Why would it equal less sales ? If I recall you need a memory card to save games on the psps. It didn't hurt them from selling psps did it ? People will still want to save games and rent movies and put thier own videos on a psp2 so people will still buy flash for a next gen console.

But now you don't have to deal with UMD

http://sites.google.com/site/neotechni/Home/suggestions#TOC-Software1



Lower costs = higher sales
sales =/= quality
What works for DS doesnt mean itll work for PSP. They are completely different

Wow that site is simply trolling.

Last i checked there are more 360s in the world than ps3s big guy. Last I check more software has been sold on the 360.

Thus they wont abandon the 75% of people according to their own survey that prefer UMD or the 1/3 that don't have PSN/broadband.

75% of users perfer umds because they got a bunch of them laying around the house.

Now I bet if they did a real poll in which they state you can choose to have faster transfer rates ( less load times) no noise , better durability and better battery life or have umds. You'd see a huge change in those numbers.

Yes it is. Especially on a something called portable that shouldnt require a PC.
There are places with monthly quotas only double that size.

Many devices already come with free 3g connections. I don't see why sony couldn't provide that either.

And?

And ? whats the advantage of UMD. Its worse at everything than flash is. Its only advantage is cost.

Yes. Among many other reasons

So basicly sony is incompetent in implementing things that MS , GOOGLE , APPLE ,AMAZON , BARNES and NOBLE and wait... SONY already do with great sucess ?

I'm not sure why you believe so.

iphone games are A LOT smaller than PSP games though. What works for iphone doesnt work for anything else. iphone games arent even the same kind of games PSP has.

You haven't convinced me in anyway that the psp (which already does exactly what the iphone does with the new psp go) can't have DD games or use flash for games.

Just cause you guys dont like PSP doesnt make it a failure. There are more PSPs out there than iphones. And PSP is currently the top selling system in japan, has been for months. PSP Go has been the worst selling since its launch rush. Now you tell me what the people in charge get from those results, given the biggest difference between PSP and Go is the UMD drive, and other systems with more expensive versions are not being effected by the price difference. UMD is selling better than you guys want to believe for irrational reasons.

The psp has had a long road. It easily one of the most pirated consoles out , its software sales are extremely lacking and it only moves units when a big game comes out. Like a monster hunter.

UMD movies failed dispite Sony having multiple movie stuidos that they own putting out content and multiple relaunches of the movie format on UMD. Its games and form factor are not ideal for portable use.

Look at the DS on the other hand.

THe ds is smaller , FAT, Lite , DSI are all smaller . The lite is much smaller than the psp. All the ds systems have greater battery life. I can get 12 hours gaming on my ds lite while my psp 2000 is lucky to get 4 hours of gaming. The DS systems are truelly portable and I can fit multiple carts in the same space as a single umd. In fact my dsi case holder can hold 10 dsi games in a space less than 2 umds with no extra cases.

I enjoy my psp when I'm home on my couch but I certianly wouldn't take it out with me unless I'm on a long train trip or in a car where i can keep in charge.


Sony would have to do much better with a psp2 if they want to meet with greater sucess and that is why flash would be the smarter way to go.

FLash would

1) Reduce the size of the psp
2) Reduce load times
3) Increase battery life


These are all important for a portable handheld system

I don't hear any valid arugements from you other than costs and frankly your website scares me becuase there are many thigns on it that simply aren't true.

 

[Rolf N]

Of course, the ultimate solution would be flash chips mounted on a spinning plastic disc, with coal/brush contacts. The next generation of handhelds will be all about sparks (again).

 

[NeoTechni]

Doesn't metal gear solid use Uncompressed 5.1 sound . Its been talked about here before I think but a japanese site has reportedthat 1/4th of the game's size is the audio.

And? How is it relevant? It doesnt matter what they used it for so long as they did

I can't find out anything about the disc size on LBP if you have a link o anywhere talking about the size of the game that be great.

I don't see how it would be relevant. You're opinion on how it's used doesn't cancel out those who felt the game used it well, ie: the developers.

Unless the space is filled with garbage data to pad it to the edge of the disc (which doesnt work on bluray) then you have no point.

At the cost of capacity, which is needed for a system as powerful as PSP

Why is that. You state its as powerfull as a gamecube , ps2 , xbox . I seem to remember those systems being limited to 1.4gig to 8.4gig. In fact some gamecube games looked better than ps2 games dispite being limited to 1.4gigs.

I've already gone over that before.

PSP ran at almost a third of the resolution of them though, the assets were downscaled.
That won't likely be a factor on PSP2.

And lots of Cube games had content stripped to fit on the disc, or came on multiple discs.

PSP2 will also be in between PS2/GCN/Wii/XBOX and PS3/360, it will need more space than it currently has.

Because the go is a crappy product and they are giving away umds at cut throat prices.

UMD movie sales do not mean the format failed for games

UMD2 would not be bound by the limitations of UMD1.

Sure it would

No it wouldnt. Being that UMD2 doesnt have to be read on UMD1 drives, it can be completely different. ie: Bluray.

You still have to spin a disc = uses much more power than flash

The power difference is nigh irrelevant. UMD-based PSPs have better battery life than the Go.

You still have a fragile disc

Hence the casing.

You will still have low transfer rates and seek times.

UMD2 would not be bound to the same speed as UMD1

You will still have bad battery life.

You said that already, nor is it true

These are all limitations of any optical format.

And cost is still a limitation of any solid state medium, hence why PSP didnt use it in the first place.

Well i've never played a game where FMV helped the game or story

Eh? No Jeanne d'Arc, FF7 Crisis Core, FF7 or any RPG?

However there is no reason it can't be done with in game cut scenes.

Yes there is.
They can avoid limitations of the engine, ie: framerate drops, vsync tearing, load times, character limits, use more effects, more detail.
If there was no reason it couldn't be done in-engine, they'd have stopped using FMV a long time ago.

Developers aren't stupid if they are given a 4 gig format at the launch of a next gen handheld they wont go and want to put 12 gigs of fmv on it. They will design a game that graphicly looks great and has in game great looking cut scenes.

Are you saying devs will never put FMV on PSP?

If I recall you need a memory card to save games on the psps

One is included with every PSP.

Wow that site is simply trolling.

No, it's not. You asked for my ideas, there they are.
And if you had bothered to scroll up you'd have seen a similar list for PS3

Last i checked there are more 360s in the world than ps3s big guy. Last I check more software has been sold on the 360.

Sales do not equal quality.

75% of users perfer umds because they got a bunch of them laying around the house.

And because they can rent/borrow/loan/sell them, buy used, they are cheaper, less buggy, don't need a PC for a PORTABLE, doesn't take 5 minutes to swap them if the game isnt installed, etc etc

Now I bet if they did a real poll in which they state you can choose to have faster transfer rates ( less load times) no noise , better durability and better battery life or have umds. You'd see a huge change in those numbers.

There'd be no change in numbers, since that was on the poll. The poll was UMD versus downloads.

And ? whats the advantage of UMD. Its worse at everything than flash is. Its only advantage is cost.

Cost is a HUGE advantage. Its THE advantage that made consoles switch to it.

So basicly sony is incompetent in implementing things that MS , GOOGLE , APPLE ,AMAZON , BARNES and NOBLE and wait... SONY already do with great sucess ?

None of those are doing games as large as PSP with "great success"
MS is the ONLY one selling downloadable games, and not to any success. Most 360s only have 13 GB of available space.

You haven't convinced me in anyway that the psp (which already does exactly what the iphone does with the new psp go) can't have DD games or use flash for games.

I wasn't trying to.
I never said downloads would go away.
I said Sony won't be abandoning UMD. Most users prefer it or can't switch to downloads, and retailers are already against a physical-medium-less system.

its software sales are extremely lacking

Don't accuse me of trolling when you're doing it yourself

UMD movies failed

Granted. I thought they would from the start. But it's not relevant to UMD as a game medium

Look at the DS on the other hand.

Completely irrelevant. DS set out to do things differently than PSP.
DSi LL is the biggest handheld released in years.
The FAT DS as you call it, is NOT smaller than PSP. Go ahead, calculate it's volume. It's BIGGER.

I can get 12 hours gaming on my ds lite while my psp 2000 is lucky to get 4 hours of gaming.

And you think that's completely due to UMD?
Not because it's handling a bigger screen, more powerful processors running more complex code, higher quality audio, etc?
PSP Go has no UMD yet the same battery life as UMD-based PSPs.
You're ignoring everything that sets PSP apart from DS, then blaming one singular component!

The DS systems are truly portable

And don't require a PC to get their games on it.

and I can fit multiple carts in the same space as a single umd

And those multiple carts still wouldnt add up to the same capacity as one UMD.

I don't hear any valid arugements from you other than costs

Putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalala, doesnt make my valid arguments go away

The retailer boycotts of the Go, the significant percentage of PSPs user base who aren't online, and prefer UMDs mean Sony cant abandon UMD without sacrificing a significant amount of their current userbase/target audience

and frankly your website scares me becuase there are many thigns on it that simply aren't true.

eh? All of those are from personal experience, if you feel they are wrong correct them in PM

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The power difference is nigh irrelevant. UMD-based PSPs have better battery life than the Go.

Ha ha ha! You're arguments can be pretty hit and miss at best - I've already highlighted 2 utter contradictions of yours which you ignored - but this one proves you are sometimes pulling arguments out of your nether-regions. If you think spinning a disk has little more power consumption than reading a flash card, you have zero understanding of electronics and the engineering of the device your trying to convince us needs an optical drive. The reason PSPGo's battery lasts no longer than the other PSP's is because the battery's smaller! (930mAh vs 1200/1800mAh).

 

[NeoTechni]

Ha ha ha! You're arguments can be pretty hit and miss at best

Let's not resort to childish insults here. You're supposed to be a mod.

You guys keep saying the power difference is huge, it's not.
The Go proves that.

You're exaggerating the power difference. Plain and simple. I'm not saying there isn't a difference.

this one proves you are sometimes pulling arguments out of your nether-regions

Insults do not prove your points. It's not constructive. I feel the same way about the things you've been saying, but you don't see me throwing childish insults around. Surely if I can treat you with common dignity you can too. You're an adult aren't you?

The reason PSPGo's battery lasts no longer than the other PSP's is because the battery's smaller! (930mAh vs 1200/1800mAh).

Yes I know it's smaller. The difference between 920 and 1200 isn't that significant. Nor is the size of the 1200 battery. Jees, 2 AA's are bigger.
Hell, by quoting the difference between the original models and the slim you've proven Sony is capable of reducing that further. Especially since Bluray would have slower motor speed requirements.

At best, the difference you've given is a few millimeters of a battery. Wow. That sure is a lot. That makes abandoning UMD, the people who prefer it, or those without broadband access all the worthwhile. Oh, and the retailer boycotts that will ensue. DSi LL is much bigger than even the original PSP and its selling fine, you guys dictate sales as success. So size is obviously not an issue. You guys should see the size of the carts Nintendo just patented for the DSi, they're bigger than UMDs and stick out



It also has a smaller screen by an insignificant amount, frankly your comments would be the same as me claiming the power difference was completely due to the smaller screen size. It's just not that big. PSPs battery life isnt horrible, hell its better than that $900 UMPC I mentioned earlier by a factor of 3.

I'm not saying downloads will go away, I'm saying physical mediums won't and can't.
You keep ignoring certain things, and that's the downfall of your argument against me.
-You ignore the fact that some retailers boycotted the Go specifically cause it doesnt use a physical medium. Retailers are pissed off at project $10 from Mass Effect 2, that only devalued used copies by $10 and they are pissed off. Do you really think they'll support a system that kills off used games altogether?
-You ignore the fact the majority, the significant majority at that by Sony's own admission, prefer physical mediums
-Sony sells PSPs to areas/people without broadband access, or small monthly (or daily) quotas. And would like to continue selling to them
-PSP2 games WILL be larger, and the larger the file the less convenient download-only becomes. An inconvenience that not everyone wants to deal with.
-PSPs downloadable games are fraught with glitches not present in UMD versions
-There are people who *gasp* like the PSP and own 40+ games (ie: me) these are the people Sony wants most of all. The best way to get them to buy PSP2 is with BC. The best way to compete with DSi's ever growing library is with BC.

You ignore these people cause DD-only works for you. I am not arguing UMD will stay just for my benefit alone, but these factors as well.
You seem to think cause you want it, everyone else does. Not everyone does.

 

[eastmen]

And? How is it relevant? It doesnt matter what they used it for so long as they did

Because they could have used a lossless compression that would have sounded just as good and used much less space ?

So you can get away with smaller amounts of flash or hardrive space and have the same quality costs.

I don't see how it would be relevant. You're opinion on how it's used doesn't cancel out those who felt the game used it well, ie: the developers.

Unless the space is filled with garbage data to pad it to the edge of the disc (which doesnt work on bluray) then you have no point.

That is not the only reason to put duplicate data on a disc. I mentioned why they would do things later in my post.

I've already gone over that before.

PSP ran at almost a third of the resolution of them though, the assets were downscaled.
That won't likely be a factor on PSP2.

And lots of Cube games had content stripped to fit on the disc, or came on multiple discs.

PSP2 will also be in between PS2/GCN/Wii/XBOX and PS3/360, it will need more space than it currently has.

So psp 2 is going to come with 720p screens ? I highly doubt it.

UMD movie sales do not mean the format failed for games

It obviously did if sony wanted to phase it out completely with the psp go.

No it wouldnt. Being that UMD2 doesnt have to be read on UMD1 drives, it can be completely different. ie: Bluray.

Bluray UMD will cost alot and I don't see any clear advantages over FLash besides perhaps storage space and that would like UMD1 quickly be canceled out by advancing processes.

The power difference is nigh irrelevant. UMD-based PSPs have better battery life than the Go.

Putting a game on a memory stick on my psp 2000 can increase my battery life by up to 2 hours. The go is diffrent than umd systems and has diffrent batterys .

Hence the casing.

Working at gamestop I've seen many umds come back with scratches on it. The umds have openings in the casing that allows dust and other things in and causes scratches.

UMD2 would not be bound to the same speed as UMD1

It will still be bound by RPM and IO transfer.

Flash memory will also increase in speed also. Its not bound by anything other than process actually.

You said that already, nor is it true

Of course its true big guy.

The psp go has a diffrent battery it an embbed one and its smaller than the psp's batterys. It offers battery life equal to my psp 2000 btw with standard battery. I know because I have acess to both systems.

And cost is still a limitation of any solid state medium, hence why PSP didnt use it in the first place.

For the psp its obviously not a limitation anymore if they went with the psp go. You can get 2 gig memory sticks for $5 retail now that are faster than umds by at least twice the speed.

A properly designed ortable system developers will program for the device. Size is not a limitation anymore unless you do something stupid like put tons of high def video or use uncompressed sound. Neither of which will be used on a handheld.

Eh? No Jeanne d'Arc, FF7 Crisis Core, FF7 or any RPG?

I play real rpgs not Japanese ones. Regardless its still a portable system. You don't need 1080p video on it like on a console. If the screen resolution is 640x480 which seems to be popular now in the mobile space then it wont be anymore constrained than xbox and ps2 games were on dvd. Not only that but they will have to option to use mpeg4 which is much more efficent than what the xbox and ps2 had acess too. So file sizes for video will be reduced and still be of the same or greater quality.

Yes there is.
They can avoid limitations of the engine, ie: framerate drops, vsync tearing, load times, character limits, use more effects, more detail.
If there was no reason it couldn't be done in-engine, they'd have stopped using FMV a long time ago.

Many companys have droped FMV a long time ago.

Regardless once again you don't need 1080p video on a handheld and you don't need to use old codecs like mpeg 2. on a handheld you can use 480p video or less (depending on screen res) with mpeg 4 . Which is still better than what last gen systems had acess too.

Are you saying devs will never put FMV on PSP?

I'm saying devs don't need to use FMV and they certianly wont be putting high def FMV on it.

One is included with every PSP.

And Flash memory is included with every psp go and can be with every psp 2.

No, it's not. You asked for my ideas, there they are.
And if you had bothered to scroll up you'd have seen a similar list for PS3

Those aren't ideas, you have chart with things that are completely wrong.
Sales do not equal quality.

And because they can rent/borrow/loan/sell them, buy used, they are cheaper, less buggy, don't need a PC for a PORTABLE, doesn't take 5 minutes to swap them if the game isnt installed, etc etc

Why would u need a pc for a portable. You make no sense at all . You might not be able to rent , borrow or sell them in the future. But you don't think that doing those things cost the devs lots of money and they would rather not have that in the future.

Not only that but the devs will have direct acess to the inventory allowing them to change prices faster than going throug retail

You should read up on steam and how great it is.

There'd be no change in numbers, since that was on the poll. The poll was UMD versus downloads.

Because the polls is biased due to the majority of owners having umds.

Its very simple. Its like going to a Republican convention and asking who they are going to vote for next election.

Cost is a HUGE advantage. Its THE advantage that made consoles switch to it.

This isn't the 90s anymore. Its not even the 00s. Things change. Once carts were being used. Then optical. Flash can come back agian. Its only going to get cheaper.

None of those are doing games as large as PSP with "great success"
MS is the ONLY one selling downloadable games, and not to any success. Most 360s only have 13 GB of available space.

THe point is that all of these companys are able to find ways around broad band issues. APPLE , AMZON , Barnes and nobles and sony all have products that offer free 3g wireless for downloads.

Sony can do the same with future systems. IN fact many companys like att , sprint and verizon would love to offer free 3g wireless for downloads if they can advertise exclusive 3g gaming for paid subscriptions. Many people who are on the go would opt for te service in which they make massive amounts of money.



I

wasn't trying to.
I never said downloads would go away.
I said Sony won't be abandoning UMD. Most users prefer it or can't switch to downloads, and retailers are already against a physical-medium-less system.

No one i know likes umds. They are saddled with them on the psp. No on will care if it switches to carts or DD esp if it comes with free 3g for downloads.

Don't accuse me of trolling when you're doing it yourself

I'm not trolling anything. I'm stating simple facts. Your website is a huge troll with blatent miss infromation on it.

Granted. I thought they would from the start. But it's not relevant to UMD as a game medium

Less umds sold = more cost per umd. Your proposing that we move to umd2 using diffrent tech for a new handheld without using them for movies which = higher cost per umd2 made.

Flash is already massed produced and is always droping in pice and increasing in performance.

Completely irrelevant. DS set out to do things differently than PSP.
DSi LL is the biggest handheld released in years.
The FAT DS as you call it, is NOT smaller than PSP. Go ahead, calculate it's volume. It's BIGGER.

Takes out his FAT DS and puts it in his jeans pocket... puts psp go in his jeans pocket.. doesn't fit and takes it out. Goes to get on the bus for the city with his FAT DS.

The Dsi LL is big because its meant to serve a purpose for older people who want to use it. Its obvious based on the fact that its the same system as the dsi but with bigger screens and buttons that ther is no reason other than that for it to be big.

THe psp has to deal with a umd slot and its screen. The psp go is even smaller than ap sp because they reduced ths creen and got rid of umd.

And you think that's completely due to UMD?
Not because it's handling a bigger screen, more powerful processors running more complex code, higher quality audio, etc?
PSP Go has no UMD yet the same battery life as UMD-based PSPs.
You're ignoring everything that sets PSP apart from DS, then blaming one singular component!

UMD doesn't help. I know because I gain two hours by putting games on my memory stick instead of on umd.

As for the screen I dunno. What uses more a single psp screen or two ds screens ?

And don't require a PC to get their games on it.

Why do you keep bringing up pcs ? I've never once mentioned pcs except to point out that umd failed because people were able to port movies to the psp using their pc and advanced codecs.

And those multiple carts still wouldnt add up to the same capacity as one UMD.

Capacity doesn't stop gaes from being fun and worth bringing with you. It doesn't stop games from being epic or amazing either. I know i've been playing epic and amazing computer games since floppy discs

Putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalala, doesnt make my valid arguments go away

The retailer boycotts of the Go, the significant percentage of PSPs user base who aren't online, and prefer UMDs mean Sony cant abandon UMD without sacrificing a significant amount of their current userbase/target audience

Doesn't mean anything of the sort. There are stores out there who would love to make a $50 profit on a psp go . Gamestop might not like it but thats because game stop makes the majority of thier money on used games which the devs never see.

eh? All of those are from personal experience, if you feel they are wrong correct them in PM

I'm not going to take the time to go line through line and point out all the wrong info in there. But my 360 does show video thumb nails. My 360 unlike my psp can use my standard universal remote to operate it. Just to name a few things wrong.

Let's not resort to childish insults here. You're supposed to be a mod.

You guys keep saying the power difference is huge, it's not.
The Go proves that.

You're exaggerating the power difference. Plain and simple. I'm not saying there isn't a difference.

The psp battery is almost 1/3rd higher capcity than the psp go. The 1800mah one which i believe is in the psp 2000 is almost 50% bigger capcity wise.

The psp go is still able to bring in similar life it does that because there is no umd !

Nintendo just patented for the DSi

MIght want to look at the date of those patents



None of what your saying to me makes sense. The only advantage umd has is its price and the same goes for a umd 2.

Carts will be faster , more reliable and smaller while giving much better battery life.

Its a very simple arguement. For a handheld that doesn't have 5.1 or 7.1 speakers built in and has a sub hd screen that doesn't require high def fmv the needs for such drastic increases in space are not needed.

Not only that but you have to factor in dev costs. Devs don't want to spend 40million on a handheld game if they can only sell it for $30-40 bucks

I would love to see psp 2 with 80 gigs of flash ram but no dev is going to fill 80 gig of flash ram.

Few devs will want to spend the money to fill out 8 gig games too esp at the start of a generation when there are few consoles.

Over the course of the psp's life we went from 1-2 gigs of flash to 32 gigs of flash. Its a 16-32 times increase in flash avalible. During the life of a psp 2 we will have similar increases but more importantly 32gig flash will go from $80 bucks down to sub $5 pricing.

But at launch I don't see why 4-8 gigs will be bad in flash for games and later in the generation we will surely see 16 or more gigs avalible for psp2 games if they went to flash.

 

[darkblu]

You guys should see the size of the carts Nintendo just patented for the DSi, they're bigger than UMDs and stick out

Just a minor correction: there's been no indication whatsoever what nintendo patented this for. It could be anything, from a motion-sensor-equipped cart, to a rumble pack, to just another devkit cart. Let's not pretend we know what it's for.

ps: eastmen, please don't catch NeoTechni's posting disease ; )

 

[NeoTechni]

Because they could have used a lossless compression that would have sounded just as good and used much less space ?

But they didn't want to. They didn't have to. You're opinion doesn't mean more than the developer's.

So psp 2 is going to come with 720p screens ?

I didn't say that.
I said it will undoubtedly have a larger resolution internal LCD, and given how Sony is focusing on improving TV out with each hardware revision, it's safe to assume bare minimum, the next PSP will support fullscreen 480p. It's logical to assume they'd use that same resolution for the internal LCD to make development easier. Especially since that resolution is actually common in portables now.

And given the focus on TV out, it only makes sense they'd support HD, as any increase in VRAM would allow HD support. And 480p would be somewhat last gen. While the odds of this aren't as high as fullscreen 480p, it is likely.

It obviously did if sony wanted to phase it out completely with the psp go.

It obviously didn't, since Sony kept UMD using models around.
Ask yourself why Sony keeps the 3000 models around, every answer to that question should tell you something.

Bluray UMD will cost alot

The current cost of bluray is less than what UMD was when PSP launched, which is still less than flash.

It will still be bound by RPM and IO transfer.

No they won't be. That's as dumb as saying Bluray is bound to the same datarate as CD.
Especially since you can't switch to a more dense disc format, keep the same rotational speed, and end up with the same datarate. Changing one variable changes the datarate. Basic math disagrees with you. datarate = data per revolution * RPM. Switching to bluray changes the data per revolution.

Again, nothing about UMD2 would be bound by the limits of UMD1. It wouldn't even be bound by the same physical dimensions!
They can be made of completely different materials, with different strengths, anti scratch coatings, data rates, etc.

Flash memory will also increase in speed also.

But it will never be cheaper than optical.

Size is not a limitation anymore unless you do something stupid like put tons of high def video or use uncompressed sound. Neither of which will be used on a handheld.

That's not up to you to decide. If Kojima wants to use uncompressed sound so be it. He makes better games than you.

I play real rpgs not Japanese ones.

You don't get to say games don't count cause you don't play them.
People do play them, and do enjoy them. You're opinion doesn't cancel those out
They aren't going to stop making certain genres cause you don't like them.
You are not the deciding factor.

Many companys have droped FMV a long time ago.

And many haven't

I'm saying devs don't need to use FMV

And yet, they do.

Those aren't ideas, you have chart with things that are completely wrong.

Again, those are all things I've come across personally. If you feel they are wrong, feel free to correct them via PM. I am not going to plug my ears and ignore everything like you have been doing. I admit my data may be outdated, simply because when I took that data, PS3 did so much better, thus I stopped using 360 for those things. I am not going to discount the possibility that MS has fixed some of those by now. I would hope they have, as that's the point of the page.

Sales do not equal quality.

Agreed.

Why would u need a pc for a portable. You make no sense at all

To get games on to it, being DD-only, and not having background downloading support.
Unless you like the idea of the system being useless for few hours or so to download games.

You might not be able to rent , borrow or sell them in the future. But you don't think that doing those things cost the devs lots of money and they would rather not have that in the future.

You're a consumer, not a developer. Consumer's rights should come first for you.
And even if they don't, they do to others. Retailers for example, like the consumer's rights that make them money.

Because the polls is biased due to the majority of owners having umds.

You don't get to ignore the results cause they don't back you up.
You don't get to ignore those people cause they don't agree with you. Sony won't be ignoring those people. Those people = money

This isn't the 90s anymore. Its not even the 00s. Things change.

Yes, away from solid state to optical.

THe point is that all of these companys are able to find ways around broad band issues. APPLE , AMZON , Barnes and nobles and sony all have products that offer free 3g wireless for downloads.

3g is not a solution that will work for multi-gigabyte games.
Apple for example enforces a 20 MB limit on games downloaded over 3g. Do you want that step backwards? That's smaller than GBA games!
Amazon, enforces a limit of one hundred kilobytes a month for apps to use, and the app must be smaller than a SINGLE MEGABYTE!
Amazon and Barnes and Noble, are retailers. They didn't take money away from themselves. Sony, barring the Sony store which isn't that big, is not a retailer.
You keep comparing it to completely different situations!
It's like saying GBA games came on 32 MB average, so PSP can do it. Portables don't need 3d, or CD-quality audio, or even wireless multiplayer.
They are not comparable!

Even the largest monthly quotas for 3g are 5 or 6 gigabytes. You think people will want to use most of their monthly quota on one game?

No one i know likes umds.

Everyone you know still is not a large enough sampling size. And you're as biased as they come.
Sony/NPD/Gamestop, who has run surveys with large enough sampling size, all 3 of them came back with results of ~75% of gamers preferring physical mediums

Your website is a huge troll with blatent miss infromation on it.

Prove it! How is it trolling when there is a list right above the 360 one, with things 360 does better than PS3?

Your proposing that we move to umd2 using diffrent tech for a new handheld without using them for movies

I never said they couldn't use it for movies.
Though any intelligent business person would look at the sales of both UMD movies, and the Go, and realize trying the whole UMD movie thing again would be as stupid as trying to ditch physical mediums again. Sales wise.
Though, they don't invent the formats just for movies. I don't see anyone complaining DS cards aren't being used for movies.

Flash is already massed produced and is always droping in pice and increasing in performance.

So is optical.

Takes out his FAT DS and puts it in his jeans pocket... puts psp go in his jeans pocket.. doesn't fit and takes it out.

http://www.dimensionsguide.com/nintendo-ds-dimensions/

The Dimensions of the Nintendo DS

The physical dimensions of a Nintendo DS are 5.85 inches by 3.33 inches by 1.13 inches or 148.7 millimeters by 84.7 millimeters by 28.9 millimeters. It weighs 9.7 ounces or 300 grams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psp#Technical_specifications
* Dimensions:

* Width: 170mm (PSP-1000)
* Height: 74mm (PSP-1000)
* Depth: 23mm (PSP-1000)
280 grams

DS volume: 363,992.321 cubic mm
PSP volume: 289,340 cubic mm (ignores the fact that its edges are more curved, and thus the volume is even smaller)

Again, the launch PSP was SMALLER than the launch DS.

Oh, and DS's wifi is 1/10th the speed of PSPs. A further influence on battery life

What uses more a single psp screen or two ds screens ?

PSP's higher resolution, higher color depth, higher framerate (PSP can do 60 fps, DS is limited to 30), brighter screen

Why do you keep bringing up pcs ?

I told you why every time I brought up PCs. And I specified UMPCs. As in, ultra mobile PCs. The smallest kind of PC. It's the perfect example to use, it's small, and extremely powerful. My multi-year old UMPC has a 60 GB HDD, 512 MB of RAM, a 900 mhz CPU, HAD a 2 hour battery life (they decrease FAST on UMPCs) an 800*480 LCD (touchscreen) with VGA out, it's like double (or more) the size of a PSP though. Cost 3 times as much as a PSP at launch. I have another UMPC, still larger than a PSP, but 800 mhz CPU, 1024*600 LCD (touchscreen), 1 GB of RAM, 32 GB hard drive, sliding LCD like the Go to reveal a keyboard, costs twice as much as a PSP at launch. Both have wifi/bluetooth, 2 USB ports.

http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/pics/samsung_q1.jpg
http://pocketables.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/07/pioneer_dreambook_560_2.jpg

Capacity doesn't stop gaes from being fun and worth bringing with you. It doesn't stop games from being epic or amazing either. I know i've been playing epic and amazing computer games since floppy discs

So what you're saying is 640 KB is enough for anyone?

Doesn't mean anything of the sort. There are stores out there who would love to make a $50 profit on a psp go

And there were many who boycotted the Go cause it costs them more
You keep ignoring that

I'm not going to take the time to go line through line and point out all the wrong info in there. But my 360 does show video thumb nails.

Animated thumbnails?

My 360 unlike my psp can use my standard universal remote to operate it. Just to name a few things wrong.

I didn't say PSP could use a universal remote. Though the launch ones CAN. I have an infrared keyboard that works on my 1000 model PSP. So you're wrong there. There are docking bays for other PSPs to let you use infrared remotes as well!

I DID however list under things 360 does better than PS3, that 360 can use universal remotes. Way to prove you DIDNT READ THE BLOODY THING!

Trolling my @##.

None of what your saying to me makes sense.

I'm sorry it's above you, I'll try to explain in simpler terms in the future

The only advantage umd has is its price and the same goes for a umd 2.

Cost is really the most important factor to a company though
And used game sales, convenience, backwards compatibility with all existing games,

Carts will be faster , more reliable and smaller while giving much better battery life.

And yet we still switched away from them in every current gen system

Its a very simple arguement. For a handheld that doesn't have 5.1 or 7.1 speakers built in and has a sub hd screen that doesn't require high def fmv the needs for such drastic increases in space are not needed.

Most PS2/XBOX/Wii games were sub HD, relied on stereo sound, and still used that much space. PSP2 will be even more powerful.

Few devs will want to spend the money to fill out 8 gig games too esp at the start of a generation when there are few consoles.

I'm not saying every game will be 8 GB.

Though, people said the same thing about PSP. Yet we have games like Crisis Core, uses FMV during gameplay, cost millions to make, one of the best handheld games I've ever played. And the FMV made it great, the ending made me cry more than any anime/movie/game I've ever seen. And it wouldn't have had that emotional effect with bloody text, nor were some of the things in the FMV possible to do real time on the hard ware.

Just a minor correction: there's been no indication whatsoever what nintendo patented this for. It could be anything, from a motion-sensor-equipped cart, to a rumble pack, to just another devkit cart. Let's not pretend we know what it's for.

True. But you guys keep saying UMDs are too big, obviously they are not too big for everyone. Hell, they are smaller than gameboy carts.



We can go DD-only, when unlimited fast broadband is available cheaply and pretty much everywhere, where quotas are a thing of the past, the systems come with terabytes of reliable space, copyright laws are changed to benefit the consumer, DRM is changed to allow refunds/renting/borrowing/selling/buying used, batteries and processors are powerful enough to allow background downloading, and Sony/MS/Nintendo can bypass retailers by letting you download the designs for their systems and print them out in your home replicator. Till then, physical mediums aren't going anywhere.

 

[MfA]

The DS(i) is a current gen system.

 

[NeoTechni]

The DS(i) is a current gen system.

As much as this is: http://www.destructoid.com/sega-releases-a-new-motion-controlled-console-162356.phtml :Þ
Though if you guys want to count it, then it's the perfect argument for PSP staying with discs and not carts as the majority of systems use discs, after having switched FROM carts. Technologically, DSi is still inferior to what PSP was 4 years ago!

But I was referring to the consoles PS3/360, and even last gens Wii/XBOX/PS2/GCN/DC. PSP is designed to be closer to them than handhelds like the DS/GBA. The whole point of PSP was to bridge that gap.

 

[eastmen]

But they didn't want to. They didn't have to. You're opinion doesn't mean more than the developer's.

Your missing the point. We are talking about handhelds. It doesn't matter what the devs want. They will do what the hardware allowed. Devs created a game and even after duplicate data for speed and fmv and what have you they had tons of left over space.

I'm sure Konami would not have cared if they used Doby true hd instead to save a few gigs if they didn't have tons of room left over.

I didn't say that.
I said it will undoubtedly have a larger resolution internal LCD, and given how Sony is focusing on improving TV out with each hardware revision, it's safe to assume bare minimum, the next PSP will support fullscreen 480p. It's logical to assume they'd use that same resolution for the internal LCD to make development easier. Especially since that resolution is actually common in portables now.

And given the focus on TV out, it only makes sense they'd support HD. While the odds of this aren't as high as fullscreen 480p, it is likely.

But for 480p its what the xbox used and ps2 and gamecube used. Why would the needs increase over those systems that had 8.4 gigs or less of room.

This is what I don't get from you. You keep claiming space is needed but you don't seem to understand that these are handheld systems and that many people want the systems to be smaller and less power hungry while its media is portable.

So what you're saying is 640 KB is enough for anyone?

Nope but devs are pretty smart making amazing worlds for us to play in. I don't think having 4-8 gigs vs 8-12 gigs for example is going to stop them from delivering the game that they want. It hasn't stoped them in the past from delivering amazing game play experiances that we all enjoy and love.

And there were many who boycotted the Go cause it costs them more
You keep ignoring that

It costs who more ? It doesn't cost stores more because they make a larger profit on selling a psp go than a psp. It may cost stores like gamestop from making more money but at the same time umds stop devs from making more money.

i'd love a list of stores that don't sell used product that boycotted the psp go.

Most PS2/XBOX/Wii games were sub HD, relied on stereo sound, and still used that much space. PSP2 will be even more powerful.

And the 360 which has a higher resolution and better sound uses less space. 6.8 is the max single disc games have.

Take the number of titles the 360 has and then the amount that use multiple discs. You'd find 1-2 titles that need multiple discs for the hundreds that don't.

Why is the psp going to need more than the 360 when the psp2 would be rendering at a lower res, require lower res textures , and stero sound.

True. But you guys keep saying UMDs are too big, obviously they are not too big for everyone. Hell, they are smaller than gameboy carts.



We can go DD-only, when unlimited fast broadband is available cheaply and pretty much everywhere, where quotas are a thing of the past, the systems come with terabytes of reliable space, copyright laws are changed to benefit the consumer, DRM is changed to allow refunds/renting/borrowing/selling/buying used, batteries and processors are powerful enough to allow background downloading, and Sony/MS/Nintendo can bypass retailers by letting you download the designs for their systems and print them out in your home replicator. Till then, physical mediums aren't going anywhere.

UMDs are bigger than a ds card and are bigger than a memory stick or sd card. In fact I can stack most likely 10 sd cards and they wouldn't be thicker than a single umd .

For many people they want portability in a handheld. I think we both agree that handhelds are meant for gaming on the go although you cn also use them in your house. But umds ae large and a bunch of umds take up alot of room. In fact my case that holds 8 umds is as big as the psp itself. Its not very portable at all.

Mean while my sd card case for my video camera is just a little bigger than a umd and holds 10-12 sd cards. In cart form that can get 10-12 games carried in the space of a single umd.

So let me ask you , looking at it that way what is more portable ? Lets also not forget that I can drop my
sd case and not worry about anything breaking. I can't say the same about droping the umd case.

Its just easier to bring with you. That is why some of us want flash. Its just another reason I want it .

I have my psp and I have 3 memory cards. I have 1 for movies (8 gigs) 1 for games (8gigs) and one for music (2gigs) Now grant it . I don't use it for music much anymore if at all because of my zune hd and even for movies i use it less and less. However sometimes i'm going someplace and I can only bring one thing and i will make it my psp esp if i'm sitting in a movie waiting for it to start. If i had to lug around a big umd holder for all my games and movies I would never take it anywhere unless i'm in my car.


I dunno. I have a 4G connection that costs me $40 a month . Last month I downloaded about 15 gigs on it and I normaly average 10 gigs. No one complains and while its not rolled out anywhere , it does work quite well where its avalible and more sites will continue to go online each month. In fact my brothers gf lives in Philly and she uses the 4g connection as her only internet connection.

Why would DRM be changed to allow borrowing or trading. Your not buying the game. Your buying a liscense to use it. Can you let a friend borrow your windows copy or photoshop copy. This wont change. About the only thing you'd see is gifting like in steam.

Refunds already exist. Steam refunded me for KOTOR because it wouldn't run on my pc no matter what I did.

As for backround downloading , why in heavens name would this affect battery life more than a optical drive. In fact it would be more cost effective to be playing a game while downloading another than using an optical disc. I on't think you understand the power usage of optical discs.

DD is going to come. Developers and platform holders will gain so much money its not even funny. Gamestop makes over a third of its money from used games. Do you think publishers like EA and Activison aren't looking at that money being brought in from their products and don't want it all ? By going DD with no used market they will stand to profit greatly.

As for the consumer , mabye its about time they learn to play a demo and not rush out and buy something blindly before trying it and knowing you like it .

I don't pretend to know everything, but I can tell you that publishers want money and DD means more money for them. Lets look at the list

Physical medium
1) Creating the medium (carts or disc your pick)
2)Casing
3) Art for the medium and casing
4) Manual
5)Shipping the product , from the fab to the warehouses to the stores and whatever othershpping there might be.
6)Inventory. Make to many and you have tons of copys sitting around , under shoot demand and your stuck waiting to more to sell.
7) Used game market. Every used game sale is money you don't make

With DD none of those are problems. There is no packaging , no shipping , no store to cut into profits , no used market , no worrying about having enough or having to many.

DD is taking over the pc market and hand helds due to their nature will be next and after that its consols will be DD only.


Oh and I'm sure radio shack , Toys r us , target , walmart and other huge chains would love to carry a product they make money on. They don't care about having games. In fact they would rather not as they can fill the store up with better margin items.

They can stock more psp2s and they can fit more code cards (for those wth bad credit) than they could games.

 

[NeoTechni]

Your missing the point. We are talking about handhelds

Then you're missing the whole point of PSP.
And being that it seems like I'm the only PSP fan here, I'm more suited to tell you the point of PSP than you are to tell me.

http://club.ign.com/b/list/stats?&lid=100018&owner=NeoTechni
Come back when you have more than 43 PSP games, and more than 5 PSPs. Then you can tell me the point of PSP.
Cause I obviously got it.

It doesn't matter what the devs want

Then you're missing the point of this conversation, since we're discussing the space the devs will use/need.

But for 480p its what the xbox used and ps2 and gamecube used. Why would the needs increase over those systems that had 8.4 gigs or less of room.

Then it's agreed, PSP2 will use 8.4 GB. Now given you can't pick a format smaller than that, the estimated 9 GB of BLUMD is a perfect fit.

This is what I don't get from you. You keep claiming space is needed but you don't seem to understand that these are handheld systems

You don't seem to understand PSP is meant to be a portable console, not a gameboy color 3.

and that many people want the systems to be smaller and less power hungry while its media is portable.

That's not the point of PSP. If they want that, they bought the wrong system
You keep trying to compare PSP like it's a Gameboy, it's not. It's a portable PS2. That's what it was designed to be, that's where it's strengths lie. That's what it's games are meant to be. That was Sony's intention from the start. Hence the whole, bringing handheld gaming out of the ghetto.

It doesn't cost stores more because they make a larger profit on selling a psp go than a psp

They make LESS due to the lack of used games. Hence the retailer Go boycotts!!!
ONE used game alone can make more than what they'd make off the Go. JUST ONE!

And the 360 which has a higher resolution and better sound uses less space. 6.8 is the max single disc games have.

And it has multi disced games too.

Why is the psp going to need more than the 360 when the psp2 would be rendering at a lower res, require lower res textures , and stero sound.

http://gameboy.ign.com/articles/430/430939p1.html

PSP Specs:
-3D Sound

Now look at it this way, 360 games use a lot more compression, something not suited to a handheld as it uses more power.

Go back and compare it to XBOX/PS2/Wii, which use 9 GB games, and PSP2 will be MORE powerful than

So what you're saying is 640 KB is enough for anyone?

Nope

Then stop comparing it to smaller mediums and saying they were good enough then. That argument doesnt work.
Comparing it to handhelds especially doesn't work. PSP isn't displaying sprites in all it's games for christs sakes, quit trying to compare it to the friggen gameboy.

UMDs are bigger than a ds card

And hold vastly more space, and cost vastly less to produce. Hence why UMD was chosen/invented

For many people they want portability in a handheld.

PSP is portable. I can fit 2 in my coat pocket.
Requiring a PC to get it's games, is not portable.
UMDs are not large.

So let me ask you , looking at it that way what is more portable ?

To me, UMD. I don't need a PC/PS3 to put my games on it. And it doesn't take me 5 minutes to swap games. If for some reason my flash gets corrupted (and it does) I still have games with me.

It's just easier to bring multiple games with me.

Lets also not forget that I can drop my
sd case and not worry about anything breaking. I can't say the same about droping the umd case.

Lets not forget SD cards are so small, they are easy to lose when dropped.
Can't say the same about dropping a UMD

I dunno. I have a 4G connection that costs me $40 a month. Last month I downloaded about 15 gigs on it and I normaly average 10 gigs.

Do you really think that is the norm? Or even the majority? Most places have 3g or less!

Why would DRM be changed to allow borrowing or trading.

1) Retailers won't accept it if it doesn't.
2) Consumers want those rights, whether or not you do

Refunds already exist

On PS3/PSP/360? If not, then the DRM would need to be changed.

As for backround downloading , why in heavens name would this affect battery life more than a optical drive

Wifi uses more power than UMD.

DD is going to come.

I'm not saying it isn't.
I'm saying physical mediums won't go away any time soon.

Gamestop makes over a third of its money from used games.

Exactly. And do you really think they will let Sony/MS/Nintendo take that from them?
Many retailers boycotted the Go because of this.
Retailers are already pissed off over Mass Effect 2's project $10, and that only devalued used copies by $10!
Till we have personal replicators, retailers are still needed to get the systems in the most hands. Not very many can/will buy large items online.

As for the consumer , mabye its about time they learn to play a demo and not rush out and buy something blindly before trying it and knowing you like it .

You don't get to call every consumer who disagrees with you stupid

With DD none of those are problems

Yeah, only more problems THAT YOU KEEP IGNORING

-PSN copies of games are glitchier than UMD copies
-Higher prices
-Delayed releases versus discs
-DRM issues/less user rights
-Retailers don't like it, and they are needed to sell the system
-Majority of gamers prefer physical mediums
-Many users don't have broadband or have small quotas that prohibit large downloads
-People LIKE packaging/collector's editions and developers like making them.

Hell, look at this: http://kotaku.com/5488926/microsoft-poland-is-pissed-off
An entire country that can't get XBLA games!

 

[darkblu]

As much as this is: http://www.destructoid.com/sega-releases-a-new-motion-controlled-console-162356.phtml :Þ

Does that happen to be the dominant handheld/console this gen?

Though if you guys want to count it, then it's the perfect argument for PSP staying with discs and not carts as the majority of systems use discs, after having switched FROM carts. Technologically, DSi is still inferior to what PSP was 4 years ago!

Has it occured to your that technology may have more to it than what your geeky self tries to see in it? Like opening/expanding markets? Technology is not something that exists in a vacuum (yes, I know you prefer looking at things this way) - it is usually meant to be the means to some ends, in some context, usually changing over time. And like it or not, UMD was created with movies in mind too (hint: it did not coincidentally happen to have Sony Pictures' library in the first year of the PSP's life).

If you ask me, the technology in the DS seems to be quite superior to that in the PSP - after all it's the DS technology that met its market perfectly, even expanded it. The PSP may have had a few geeks salivating (me included), but at the end of the day the 'home console scaled down to semi-portable size' did not do much for winning the market over. It was and remains a nice PMP, though - i give it that.

But I was referring to the consoles PS3/360, and even last gens Wii/XBOX/PS2/GCN/DC. PSP is designed to be closer to them than handhelds like the DS/GBA. The whole point of PSP was to bridge that gap.

No, the whole point of the PSP was to meet the market's demand and make some money for Sony. How it tried to do that is a different matter.

 

[eastmen]

Then you're missing the whole point of PSP.
And being that it seems like I'm the only PSP fan here, I'm more suited to tell you the point of PSP than you are to tell me.

http://club.ign.com/b/list/stats?&lid=100018&owner=NeoTechni
Come back when you have more than 43 PSP games, and more than 5 PSPs. Then you can tell me the point of PSP.
Cause I obviously got it.

Yes because your the average psp owner or averge console gamer.

BTW if there were 43 psp games worth owning I would own them.

THe point of the psp is to be a portable system. Size of the system and its media prevent that from happening.

Then you're missing the point of this conversation, since we're discussing the space the devs will use/need.

What devs will use and need are diffrent. You haven't convinced me that devs will need more than 8 gigs of space and you haven't convinced me that an optical drive can provide that in a small power efficent form factor that has fast trasnfer rates.

Then it's agreed, PSP2 will use 8.4 GB. Now given you can't pick a format smaller than that, the estimated 9 GB of BLUMD is a perfect fit.

I'm surer 8 gigs would work just fine. xbox 360 is limited to 6.8 gigs. Which means with 8 gigs you have 1.2gigs more than a 360 game that would require high res fmv , textures and better audio formats.

You don't seem to understand PSP is meant to be a portable console, not a gameboy color 3.

You don't seem to understand that the psp failed at being portable. Its not . The system itself is to big to fit into pockets and you still have to carry huge media with you to operate it.

That's not the point of PSP. If they want that, they bought the wrong system
You keep trying to compare PSP like it's a Gameboy, it's not. It's a portable PS2. That's what it was designed to be, that's where it's strengths lie. That's what it's games are meant to be. That was Sony's intention from the start. Hence the whole, bringing handheld gaming out of the ghetto.

Its not portable , its size is way to small. I also don't know what ghetto your talking about. The ds has great games on it and people flock to it. Are the graphics as ogod as thepsp ? No but its sold 3-4 times more and actuall works well as a portable which can't be said about the psp. Sales prove you other wise

They make LESS due to the lack of used games. Hence the retailer Go boycotts!!!
ONE used game alone can make more than what they'd make off the Go. JUST ONE!

Developers wont make less , publishers and sony wont make less. Only game stop.

And it has multi disced games too.

And the percentage of multiple disc games to single disc games is how much exactly

http://gameboy.ign.com/articles/430/430939p1.html

PSP Specs:
-3D Sound

3D sound ? You mean two little crap speakers emulating surround sound from stero stream ?

The only time you get true srround sound is with the tv out

Now look at it this way, 360 games use a lot more compression, something not suited to a handheld as it uses more power.

Get rid of a spinning optical format and your just fine. Lets not forget that therei s compression that doesn't use any more power out there because the hardware can read the compressed formats and lets not forget that the psp2 will not be using the same resolution textures or sound or fmv as the 360. So once again size restraints go down

Then stop comparing it to smaller mediums and saying they were good enough then. That argument doesnt work.
Comparing it to handhelds especially doesn't work. PSP isn't displaying sprites in all it's games for christs sakes, quit trying to compare it to the friggen gameboy.

PSP has a 1.8 gig drive. 2gig flash is $5 . Not only that but with a trasnfer rate of 2-4 times greater and with almost non existant seek times or spin up/ down times.

You can make better looking games with 2 gigs of flash vs the umd and no load times !

And hold vastly more space, and cost vastly less to produce. Hence why UMD was chosen/invented

When the system came out perhaps , but its obvious sony mistook the industry. With in 2 years of the psp release flash went up to 4 gigs and 2 gigs became affordable. Sony just didn't look foward into the future properly and its alot easier for us to see looking back. But not you , cause sony is god to you.

PSP is portable. I can fit 2 in my coat pocket.
Requiring a PC to get it's games, is not portable.
UMDs are not large.

What requires a PC to get its games. Your not making any sense. WTF are you talking about. Every handheld I have doesn't require a pc to get its games. Not the iphone , not my zune hd , not my ds i
My psp barely fits in my coat pocket but hten I need another coat pocket for games !!!!! My ds fits in my jeans pocket with a bunch of games. My friends psp go fits in my jeans pocket with a bunch of games.

To me, UMD. I don't need a PC/PS3 to put my games on it. And it doesn't take me 5 minutes to swap games. If for some reason my flash gets corrupted (and it does) I still have games with me.

You make no sense and invent things to make your point. A psp go doesn't need a pc or ps3 to put game on it and aside from the smaller screen its better in every way than a psp.

It's just easier to bring multiple games with me.

Its easier for me to rip them to memory cards. In fact I have 4 games on a memory stick (could fit more) and it requies no more room than my psp wihle 4 games would require almost as muh room as the psp itself.

Lets not forget SD cards are so small, they are easy to lose when dropped.
Can't say the same about dropping a UMD

UMDS will break when droped. Can't say the same about sd cards.

Do you really think that is the norm? Or even the majority? Most places have 3g or less!

I'm sorry is the psp2 out today ? Does the psp 2 ocdme out for a year and only sell ? You have to look at the whole picture and the psp 2 will sell for 5-6 years. Alot changes all the time. Verizon , SPrint and ATT are all upgrading to 4G or LTE this year and will have a ton of spare 3g capacity they would love to dump in 2011/12 as phones move on.

1) Retailers won't accept it if it doesn't.
2) Consumers want those rights, whether or not you do

1) Retailers don't care except gamestop. Toys R us sells plenty of things with no used market and so does walmart.

2)Consumers wont care because they want to play the games first and foremost. If they have to go DD to get it then they will.

I think your forgetting even in peoples houses they don't want clutter or to take up room with discs. I know many gamers on the pc who stoped buying pc games in stores because of that. They have shelves full of games. No with steam they take up no more room than the pc itself.

On PS3/PSP/360? If not, then the DRM would need to be changed.

Yes and what do we need the pope to come in and change DRM ? Or can a programer just implement the feature in the future ?

Wifi uses more power than UMD.

Must be a shitty wifi chip. My zune ith half the battery capacity will last longer than my psp playing a game off the umd while my zune is playing a multplayer game with a friend through wifi.

I'm not saying it isn't.
I'm saying physical mediums won't go away any time soon.

In the portable arena they wil. Its not good for that segment.

Exactly. And do you really think they will let Sony/MS/Nintendo take that from them?
Many retailers boycotted the Go because of this.
Retailers are already pissed off over Mass Effect 2's project $10, and that only devalued used copies by $10!
Till we have personal replicators, retailers are still needed to get the systems in the most hands. Not very many can/will buy large items online.

Do you really think Gamestop can stop them ? Gamestop doesn't sell near what Walmart does. Gamestop steals from the developers and platform companys. Do you think they will continue to allow gamestop to get away with it.

They are already introducing codes with the purchase of the game fr content you have to pay for if you buy used. ROCK band , GOEW2 , Madden and others have already done this and more will continue to do so

You don't get to call every consumer who disagrees with you stupid

People who don't make informed purchase choices are stupid. they are wasting money.

Yeah, only more problems THAT YOU KEEP IGNORING

-PSN copies of games are glitchier than UMD copies
-Higher prices
-Delayed releases versus discs
-DRM issues/less user rights
-Retailers don't like it, and they are needed to sell the system
-Majority of gamers prefer physical mediums
-Many users don't have broadband or have small quotas that prohibit large downloads
-People LIKE packaging/collector's editions and developers like making them.

1) Thats psn's fault. My rips play perfectly
2) I've never paid more for a DD game. In fact many times I pay as little as half the priceat retail.
3) No such thing. With proper DD you can play it and install it and uninstall as many times as you want
4)Retailers don't care except for gamestop. Walmart could care less esp if they are making the money on the sytem now. For instance. Walmart makes $10 per game sold for the 360. If the 360 was dd only and there was $50 built into the system for walmart to make then they would gladly sell that 1 system instead of 5 games. Less inventory managment nad less tock to sit on shelves.
5)That is false, you have no facts to back it up and the only platform you can really do a poll on it is the pc becuase neither the 360 no ps3 have proper DD support at this time
6) THere are multiple ways to get DD only games

Hell, look at this: http://kotaku.com/5488926/microsoft-poland-is-pissed-off
An entire country that can't get XBLA games!

I'll read it later off to class

 

[Rolf N]

The thing is we can actually have it both ways. I revel in the downloadable future with my PSP 3000, because I put an 8GB memory stick in there, and let me tell you, it's quite full.
It still has the capability to play UMD games. When/if I do that, I "bear" the horrible disadvantages of slightly reduced battery life and recurring whirrs. But I can eject the UMD and all of that disappears, just like that. And yet it's the same device.

To anyone wanting to get rid of discs to move on to a purely download-based gaming experience for themselves, I say you can still have that with a device that could accept physical media. Just don't ever insert any!

The physical medium -- disc or flash cart -- is the instrument to reach out to the hinterlands, while the metropolitan games conoisseurs can get most of the benefits of flash from using downloadable games, and leaving their media slots empty.

In this scenario, which market needs which kind of physical medium? Doesn't the flash cart kind of cover the third base in the middle? Aren't the ones who need a physical format the same people who'd accept certain small tradeoffs?

Dare I say so what if a disc takes 4s longer to load and depletes the battery charge 33% faster. Is that really big enough of a problem to overrule cost considerations? The unencumbered direct-from-flash experience still exists, on the same device, you're just going to have to upgrade to the internet to access it. Now that's something to aspire to!

And consider the publishing perspective as well: they all hate used sales. They want to sell you the high-margin virtual product you can't resell. But the more ideal you make your physical medium, the harder it gets to upsell to a download.

 

[MfA]

Except everyone who didn't want the discs will have a device increased very significantly in volume for the sake of the UMD drive ...

 

[Rolf N]

Except everyone who didn't want the discs will have a device increased very significantly in volume for the sake of the UMD drive ...

That's why the caddy has to go away. To make the drive size less of a problem than it is now.