The Full TEKKEN 6 trailer.

[DuckThor Evil]

I have always had a soft spot for the Mishima family especially for Heihachi. Heihachi is pretty strong in T5. I also like to play with Paul. I'm no expert though, but I'll beat the crap out of any "casual" player who beats his/her inexprienced friends.

BTW nice post Bub.

 

[Nesh]

I'll tell you this, Nina, and Lee where far from being exploitable, infact Nina was arguably the 2nd best character in Tekken4. She had one of the strongest turtling games in Tekken4, her 1,2's where incredibly good, Hiyashida was great, ss+2 on ch was awesome, there was nothing bad about Nina in Tekken4 at all, she wasn't in Jin's league, but she was very strong. Lee arguably had one of the best rushdown's in the entire game, his mist step in Tekken4 was the best version ever, this gave him mad crazy juggling potential as well as bulldogging potential, his 1,2,3 was great, and his 1,2's where ridiculous good, his ss+2 was way too strong and good, and 4,4,4,4 up against the wall as a juggle ender was strong.

Nina and Lee where powerful characters, but Lei on the other hand, he just simply went down the barrel, he was too weak, and had very little juggling potential to even make him good, given he was better than the Bear's...but that's not saying much.

I can only agree that they were improved compared to old tekken's but....

Personally I hardly ever found Nina a thread. As for Lee, he had some of the longest juggling combos but they were very weak compared to other characters. None of the moves you mention were much of a problem for me. And to start a juggling combo he had to throw you up to the air first ofcourse which again wasnt something easy for Lee to achieve since I found him predictable. I performed Lee's juggling combos you mentioned but although they were very easy to perform, and probably the coolest to watch at (damn I loved ghoasting some of his punces following them with a different hit), he was just that. Mostly a showing off character.

They were improved compared to TTT and great but not enough. They still needed more work especially with the introduction of the new gameplay mechanics.

I feel that in T5 they fixed the problems I found with Nina and Lee although they overdid it with their juggling+wall combos. Lee for example can eat up more than half of your health bar if he starts a juggling combo and then gets you on the wall. Pretty cheap

Who's Hyiashida btw? You mean Howarang? Yeah he was totally much more improved from previous Tekken's. Still, he needed more improvements. It was probably the first Tekken where Howarand started to show his real "chain" potential, with faking and using flamengo stances. Unfortunately he had too many high hits which were easy to sidestep or duck away from. Thankfully they added more fast middle hits in 5.

 

[Bub]

I can only agree that they were improved compared to old tekken's but....

Personally I hardly ever found Nina a thread.

This means you never played a good Nina at all during Tekken4 then, she was great period. Her poking game was good, she had a very powerful turtling game, strong throws, DC was good, everything about Nina was good in Tekken4, she was always a threat.

As for Lee, he had some of the longest juggling combos but they were very weak compared to other characters. None of the moves you mention were much of a problem for me. And to start a juggling combo he had to throw you up to the air first ofcourse which again wasnt something easy for Lee to achieve since I found him predictable. I performed Lee's juggling combos you mentioned but although they were very easy to perform, and probably the coolest to watch at (damn I loved ghoasting some of his punces following them with a different hit), he was just that. Mostly a showing off character.

Lee was hands down in the Top 5 best characters for Tekken4 hands down...the list was something like this...

God Tier
Jin

Top Tier
Nina
Steve
Lee/Ling

Lee had a powerful bulldogging game, 1,2's with mist step, and his JF was guaranteed if the first hit connected, no good launchers? Lee had a ton of Launchers, one of his best and quickest was his U/F+4 or you could say his "tiger" knee, especially off of a sidestep, it was sick and his 4,4,4,4 up against the wall was one of the most powerful in the game, and ss+2 was incredible, this move hit so well, had such good tracking and was great for punishing opponents, this move was greatly toned down going into Tekken5, not to mention his mist step.

Lee was strong in Tekken4, he was no just a show off character, his speed+bulldogging game made him one of the best characters in the game, his only problem was a lack of powerful mid and especially low hits, however this didn't stop him from being one of the best in Tekken4.

I feel that in T5 they fixed the problems I found with Nina and Lee although they overdid it with their juggling+wall combos. Lee for example can eat up more than half of your health bar if he starts a juggling combo and then gets you on the wall. Pretty cheap

It was moronic in Namco's part to completely nerf Jin, Lee, and Ling going into Tekken5, yet Nina and Steve flew completely under the radar. Nina in Tekken 5 5.0 was a powerhouse, still has a good poking game, d/f+1,2 is stronger than ever, DC leads to 60%+ juggles and it's safe on block, ss+2 doesn't need to be a ch in order to launch, B+1 leads to a juggles, and u/f+1 had ridiculous oki properties.

Lee is trash in Tekken5 when compared to his Tekken4 counterpart, mist step is toned down greatly, ss+2 has nowhere near the priority it had once before, 1,2's are still good, but overall, Lee's game has been shutdown completely in Tekken5, he's still solid, Middle Tier at best, but nowhere near his Tekken4 potential.

Who's Hyiashida btw?

Hiyashida is one of Nina's best moves in Tekken4 and Tekken5, in Tekken4 it was the single move that made Ling players hate Nina players, because it could knock Ling out of AOP. Oh yes, Ling Xiayou was a monster in Tekken4 too, AOP was WAY too good, and her evasiveness in Tekken4 was just too good, my gosh was she annoying to fight against.

 

[Nesh]

This means you never played a good Nina at all during Tekken4 then, she was great period. Her poking game was good, she had a very powerful turtling game, strong throws, DC was good, everything about Nina was good in Tekken4, she was always a threat.

The same arguement can be used for any character even Kuma. A good player is always a pain no matter how many weaknesses a character has.

Lee was hands down in the Top 5 best characters for Tekken4 hands down...the list was something like this...

God Tier
Jin

Top Tier
Nina
Steve
Lee/Ling

Lee had a powerful bulldogging game, 1,2's with mist step, and his JF was guaranteed if the first hit connected, no good launchers? Lee had a ton of Launchers, one of his best and quickest was his U/F+4 or you could say his "tiger" knee, especially off of a sidestep, it was sick and his 4,4,4,4 up against the wall was one of the most powerful in the game, and ss+2 was incredible, this move hit so well, had such good tracking and was great for punishing opponents, this move was greatly toned down going into Tekken5, not to mention his mist step.

Lee was strong in Tekken4, he was no just a show off character, his speed+bulldogging game made him one of the best characters in the game, his only problem was a lack of powerful mid and especially low hits, however this didn't stop him from being one of the best in Tekken4.

Whats JF? You mean the Freaker Jab? I found many opportunities to turn his 1,2's+misteps+hitman+FJ or whatever against him. Not that much of a good idea if your opponent was familiar with these.

He had launchers but as I said earlier they werent practical if your opoonent was familiar with them. His tiger knee is one example of this. Small range, and if blocked, or didnt hit its target left Lee exploitable to a juggling. Some of the moves were toned down in 5 because they added some new moves which were more practical on the ground. His 4,4,4,4 werent very practical in 4 especially in open areas and uneven levels. His 4,4,4,4s were particularly good if you managed to start a juggling and ended your opponent on the wall.

His mist step wasnt toned down at all in 5. Some of his juggling combos found in 4 that used the mist step were actually the things that got toned down but they were replaced with other juggles(sometimes too cheap and deadly). The mist step itself was not.

The fact that in your opinion Lee was one of T4's 5 top characters doesnt say much except the fact that the other characters needed so much work.

It was moronic in Namco's part to completely nerf Jin, Lee, and Ling going into Tekken5, yet Nina and Steve flew completely under the radar. Nina in Tekken 5 5.0 was a powerhouse, still has a good poking game, d/f+1,2 is stronger than ever, DC leads to 60%+ juggles and it's safe on block, ss+2 doesn't need to be a ch in order to launch, B+1 leads to a juggles, and u/f+1 had ridiculous oki properties.

Lee is trash in Tekken5 when compared to his Tekken4 counterpart, mist step is toned down greatly, ss+2 has nowhere near the priority it had once before, 1,2's are still good, but overall, Lee's game has been shutdown completely in Tekken5, he's still solid, Middle Tier at best, but nowhere near his Tekken4 potential.

See previous points

Hiyashida is one of Nina's best moves in Tekken4 and Tekken5, in Tekken4 it was the single move that made Ling players hate Nina players, because it could knock Ling out of AOP. Oh yes, Ling Xiayou was a monster in Tekken4 too, AOP was WAY too good, and her evasiveness in Tekken4 was just too good, my gosh was she annoying to fight against.

I tried to find which move is Hiyashida but didnt find anything. Which move exactly is that?

 

[Bub]

The same arguement can be used for any character even Kuma. A good player is always a pain no matter how many weaknesses a character has.

Do you know how many good Kuma players out there? There is maybe like 1 in the US that I know of who's good with Kuma and uses him, however it doesn't change the entire tier listing. Nothing in a fighting game is balanced, and Kuma is at the bottom of the tier listing. Let's compare his "arsenal" of attacks to someone like Jin or Steve...Kuma has almost none. Jin completely annihilates Kuma in Tekken4, Kuma can't even Sidestep or counter Jin's LS, and 1,2's and 2,1's properly...this almost completely shuts down Kuma, if you would've seen the highest played matches in Tekken4, you would've seen Jin just throw out 1,2's, 2,1's and Kuma could do almost nothing but block 90% of the time.

Whats JF? You mean the Freaker Jab? I found many opportunities to turn his 1,2's+misteps+hitman+FJ or whatever against him. Not that much of a good idea if your opponent was familiar with these.

JF = Just Frame (any good Tekken player knows what this means), and Lee's 1,2,4:4 was 100% guaranteed if the first hit landed...this was such a great move. His 1,2's when used right cannot be punished, there 8 frames and 8 frame jabs are the fastest jabs in the entire game. Mist step, back and forth are so strong, he can mist step in, and mist step right back out to bait and punish, miststep inside and instead of attacking you throw, or mist step into ss+2 or ss u/f+4, not to mention 1,2,4,4. You can even use 1,3:3:3 and it is extremely powerful and can be incorporated into Lee's miststepping game, 1,3:3:3 along with 1,2,4:4 where two of the moves that made Lee so powerful in Tekken4, bar none. Hitman should be rarely used at all, and if it is, you must cancel it quickly, you don't sit there in Hitman mode, you just cancel it instantly into one of his attacks, not to mention F+4 is fast, and quick for punishing high attacks as well.

He had launchers but as I said earlier they werent practical if your opoonent was familiar with them. His tiger knee is one example of this. Small range, and if blocked, or didnt hit its target left Lee exploitable to a juggling. Some of the moves were toned down in 5 because they added some new moves which were more practical on the ground. His 4,4,4,4 werent very practical in 4 especially in open areas and uneven levels. His 4,4,4,4s were particularly good if you managed to start a juggling and ended your opponent on the wall.

If you where good, u/f+4 would rarely miss, this wasn't as senseless as Jin's JFLS where you could abuse on end. U/f+4 was great on punishing your opponents, like say for example, someone throws out a jab, you sidestep it, u/f+4, launch, from there if there's a wall, 1,2 miststep, 1,2 miststep carry over to the wall 4,4,4,4...this does almost around 60%...there is nothing weak bad about. Lee was one of the few characters in Tekken4 who had a consistant and powerful wall game.

His mist step wasnt toned down at all in 5. Some of his juggling combos found in 4 that used the mist step were actually the things that got toned down but they were replaced with other juggles(sometimes too cheap and deadly). The mist step itself was not.

You can't be serious, just look at Tekken4's miststep in the priority, speed, and recovery it had, and compare it to Tekken5's. There is a significant difference, Lee had a powerful wall game in 5.0, however with almost everything in his arsenal from Tekken4 either being removed, modified or toned down, he is no longer what he once was, and also being able to do 55%+ damage in juggles in Tekken5 means nothing, especially when pratically everyone in the entire Tekken5 cast can do 55%+ juggles and in many cases, do even more than that. Especially when you have guys like Steve, or Bryan who can consistantly do 70-80%+ juggles, and 80%+ wall combo's, infact Bryan's 1,2,1 d/f+3 is guaranteed against the wall and it does close to 80% and if you try to roll out of his d/f+3, it's another guaranteed 1,2,1 d/f+3, which by this time, your already dead, Steve has the samething in Flicker 1,1,1,2 up against the wall, and he can occassionally land the d+1+4 after it as well.

The fact that in your opinion Lee was one of T4's 5 top characters doesnt say much except the fact that the other characters needed so much work.

The fact that during Tekken4 and at the height of it's competetion, Lee was on of the best characters handsdown. Lee has actually won Tekken4 tournaments, so has Ling, and definetly Nina and Steve, just look at the tournament results during Tekken4, given Jin won like 98% of them, but it doesn't change the fact that Lee was one of the best. Just look at the Korean's, watch the Japanese players, find matches of Tekken4 in the U.K. or in the United States, Lee was one of the best characters in the game for Tekken4. All of the tournament results showed, and proved this point already.

How many tournaments have you seen of Kuma winning, since you used him as an example? None, there where great Lee players who could put up a fight up against great Jin players like Jackie-Tran, or JinKid, and before the JinFest, they where able to get alot of tournament wins with Lee. Lee has been consistant during the Tekken4 tournaments to rank within the top 8 finishes.

I tried to find which move is Hiyashida but didnt find anything. Which move exactly is that?

Hiyashida is Nina's 1+4, she does a cartwheel spin with her leg and it can even hit opponents when they are ducking...honestly, how can you say everything that you stated above and not know what Hiyashida is?

How many tournaments have you attended, or at least seen during Tekken4? Please don't tell me you just play with your group of friends only. If you weren't there during the competetive tournament scenes of Tekken4, how can you claim that someone like Nina or Lee wasn't that great in Tekken4?

I'm not even a Lee player and I know this, I've seen, watched and gone up against Lee players in Tekken4, and Lee is without a doubt, extremely powerful.

ps: if you still don't agree with me, go to this www.tekkenzaibatsu.com, this is where the best players from the US post, debate and talk about Tekken. Just go and do a search in the Tekken4 forum and you'll see reasons why Lee was one of the best characters in Tekken4 hands down.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Please don't tell me you just play with your group of friends only. If you weren't there during the competetive tournament scenes of Tekken4, how can you claim that someone like Nina or Lee wasn't that great in Tekken4?

I think your assumption is pretty spot on... I don't think there are any expert Tekken players on this board, atleast at the moment.(other than you)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How many tournaments have you attended, or at least seen during Tekken4? Please don't tell me you just play with your group of friends only. If you weren't there during the competetive tournament scenes of Tekken4, how can you claim that someone like Nina or Lee wasn't that great in Tekken4?

Um, you make it sound like no-one should be playing or commenting on Tekken unless they're a seasoned pro who goes to tournaments! It's perfectly okay for an ordinary gamer to say Nina or Lee wasn't great in Tekken 4 if the effort needed to make them work was beyond what they are willing to put in. I could say Hwowarang or whoever he was from whichever Tekken it was was no good. Even if a seasoned pro could beat me every time with Hwowwowarang, he didn't work for me and he remains IMO no good.

Also, what has any of this got to do with Tekken 6? If you want to argue who's the better Tekken player and knows Tekken better than the other, hadn't you better create your own thread 'How to pwn everyone at Tekken*' rather than post it in a Tekken 6 thread?

* Such a thread title is of course against forum rules and is not condoned.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Um, you make it sound like no-one should be playing or commenting on Tekken unless they're a seasoned pro who goes to tournaments! It's perfectly okay for an ordinary gamer to say Nina or Lee wasn't great in Tekken 4 if the effort needed to make them work was beyond what they are willing to put in. I could say Hwowarang or whoever he was from whichever Tekken it was was no good. Even if a seasoned pro could beat me every time with Hwowwowarang, he didn't work for me and he remains IMO no good.

The problem with these type of games are that they are two different games for Experts and for casual players, discussion between these two type of players is usually pretty meaningless. However I wouldn't personally argue with experts since they know more about the subject than I do, but like I said casuals and experts are basically talking about a different game altogether.

I don't think Bub was that far out of line. I think Nesh made himself sound like he's an expert when it seems to me, that he is a casual player arguing against expert, that can be annoying for the expert. I think that translates to any other situation where somebody who knows less tries to teach a more knowing person. But yeah Tekkenzaibatsu is probably the place where Bub will have more fulfilling conversations about Tekken

 

[Bub]

I don't think Bub was that far out of line. I think Nesh made himself sound like he's an expert when it seems to me, that he is a casual player arguing against expert, that can be annoying for the expert. I think that translates to any other situation where somebody who knows less tries to teach a more knowing person. But yeah Tekkenzaibatsu is probably the place where Bub will have more fulfilling conversations about Tekken

Exactly Dr. Evil, you hit it right on the spot. For someone to say to me that (insert character name) is no good and yet to not have any real solid statement, and especially experience to say otherwise and go on to tell me just doesn't add up. Tekken 4 had four years of competetive, tournament playing, Lee has been good since almost day of 1 of Tekken 4's release and even at during 2004 the last big year of T4, Lee was still one of the best hands down.

The Tekken series is one of my favorite fighting game series now (Still under Street Fighter of course for me) and I would hope that for Tekken6, they do the many followings.

- Allow Tech. Roll's off of Wall's like how they had it in Tekken4
- Tone down the damage period
- Remove the annoying Crush System (Has a random feel to it, but a good example is this...You throw out a jab, this jab has +frame advantages...someone does a crush attack after...yet you get hit instead...even though you throw out an attack that is supposed to give a + frame advantage...again, makes no sense to me)
- Make the game more technical...it's just sad and depressing to see new players pick this up and be able to do 50%+ combos with very little effort. Not to mention whipping out moves that back in the day where tough as nails to do...for example the EWGF, doing the true EWGF in TTT was tough, in Tekken5, your mother, grandmother, great aunt could pull it off.

Here's hoping for Tekken6.

 

[Nesh]

Do you know how many good Kuma players out there? There is maybe like 1 in the US that I know of who's good with Kuma and uses him, however it doesn't change the entire tier listing. Nothing in a fighting game is balanced, and Kuma is at the bottom of the tier listing. Let's compare his "arsenal" of attacks to someone like Jin or Steve...Kuma has almost none. Jin completely annihilates Kuma in Tekken4, Kuma can't even Sidestep or counter Jin's LS, and 1,2's and 2,1's properly...this almost completely shuts down Kuma, if you would've seen the highest played matches in Tekken4, you would've seen Jin just throw out 1,2's, 2,1's and Kuma could do almost nothing but block 90% of the time.

I am not trying to convince that Kuma is a good character. On the contrary I hate him and he is my worst character, but my point is that I get the same claim from so called "experts" that my opinion is a result of not competeing against a good Kuma player as well. So your claim doesnt say much. Not all "experts" share the same opinions, and they all have their arguements to base their claim.

JF = Just Frame (any good Tekken player knows what this means), and Lee's 1,2,4:4 was 100% guaranteed if the first hit landed...this was such a great move. His 1,2's when used right cannot be punished, there 8 frames and 8 frame jabs are the fastest jabs in the entire game. Mist step, back and forth are so strong, he can mist step in, and mist step right back out to bait and punish, miststep inside and instead of attacking you throw, or mist step into ss+2 or ss u/f+4, not to mention 1,2,4,4. You can even use 1,3:3:3 and it is extremely powerful and can be incorporated into Lee's miststepping game, 1,3:3:3 along with 1,2,4:4 where two of the moves that made Lee so powerful in Tekken4, bar none. Hitman should be rarely used at all, and if it is, you must cancel it quickly, you don't sit there in Hitman mode, you just cancel it instantly into one of his attacks, not to mention F+4 is fast, and quick for punishing high attacks as well.

Excuse me for not visiting tekkenzaibatsu too often. Just because I dont remember or got very familiar with some "names" doesnt mean I am not using any of the thinks you list. You throw all this moves into the discussion but as long as they are a part of only a discussion where you can claim these moves are "unpenetrable" they are no indication of anything, because I can still claim that I can cancel/block almost all of this efforts until he gets back a counter that may also prove fatal on him.

Effective? Ofcourse. Are they unpenetrable? NO!

I also never implyied just standing there with hitman. You are using assumptions to convince my supposed "inexperience"

If you where good, u/f+4 would rarely miss, this wasn't as senseless as Jin's JFLS where you could abuse on end. U/f+4 was great on punishing your opponents, like say for example, someone throws out a jab, you sidestep it, u/f+4, launch, from there if there's a wall, 1,2 miststep, 1,2 miststep carry over to the wall 4,4,4,4...this does almost around 60%...there is nothing weak bad about. Lee was one of the few characters in Tekken4 who had a consistant and powerful wall game.

No you dont get it. Its not me who has issues using it. I just know from personal experience when it sused against me. If Lee's opponent isnt good enough ofcourse the tiger knee would rarely miss. Try it on someone who knows Lee perfectly as an opponent and it will either end up blocked, or missed in most cases.
Fast moves, with direct recovery wont give much opportunity for Lee to either sidestep or use the tiger knee to launch his opponent.

Also you ignore my point that Lee being one of the best characters is a result of others being imbalanced and not so much developed, a problem of the game itself.

You can't be serious, just look at Tekken4's miststep in the priority, speed, and recovery it had, and compare it to Tekken5's. There is a significant difference, Lee had a powerful wall game in 5.0, however with almost everything in his arsenal from Tekken4 either being removed, modified or toned down, he is no longer what he once was, and also being able to do 55%+ damage in juggles in Tekken5 means nothing, especially when pratically everyone in the entire Tekken5 cast can do 55%+ juggles and in many cases, do even more than that. Especially when you have guys like Steve, or Bryan who can consistantly do 70-80%+ juggles, and 80%+ wall combo's, infact Bryan's 1,2,1 d/f+3 is guaranteed against the wall and it does close to 80% and if you try to roll out of his d/f+3, it's another guaranteed 1,2,1 d/f+3, which by this time, your already dead, Steve has the samething in Flicker 1,1,1,2 up against the wall, and he can occassionally land the d+1+4 after it as well.

Ahm...you almost repeated what I siad only with more and different words.

The difference is that unlike in Tekken4 the imbalance now is due to others becoming relatively more destructive. Again a problem of the game itself (this time Tekken5). Not because Bryan is a better designed character for example in 5 (just as Lee wasnt a better designed character in 4. He had weaknesses but imbalances found on other characters made him look better).

Lee has more practical moves,does more damage than in 4, and you have to rely on other tactics due to some changes. But due to the fact that other characters got more destructive combos and moves than what Lee got, and due to the fact that you cant risk using the same tactics as in 4, his improved effectiveness is shadowed and mostly negatively felt by those that were extremely used with 4's Lee since in 4 other characters missed the easiness and flexibility Lee had which created imbalance issues.

The fact that during Tekken4 and at the height of it's competetion, Lee was on of the best characters handsdown. Lee has actually won Tekken4 tournaments, so has Ling, and definetly Nina and Steve, just look at the tournament results during Tekken4, given Jin won like 98% of them, but it doesn't change the fact that Lee was one of the best. Just look at the Korean's, watch the Japanese players, find matches of Tekken4 in the U.K. or in the United States, Lee was one of the best characters in the game for Tekken4. All of the tournament results showed, and proved this point already.

see "Also you ignore my point that Lee being one of the best characters is a result of others being imbalanced and not so much developed, a problem of the game itself." The same counts for Steve and Nina of which almost all of her chain throws are easily canceled but was most effective near walls and cornering.

Lee was much easier to use btw than other characters. Thats one reason of his great popularity. He had the easisest and most extensive juggles and combos of all (and still has).

How many tournaments have you seen of Kuma winning, since you used him as an example? None, there where great Lee players who could put up a fight up against great Jin players like Jackie-Tran, or JinKid, and before the JinFest, they where able to get alot of tournament wins with Lee. Lee has been consistant during the Tekken4 tournaments to rank within the top 8 finishes.

None. Kuma sucks.

Hiyashida is Nina's 1+4, she does a cartwheel spin with her leg and it can even hit opponents when they are ducking...honestly, how can you say everything that you stated above and not know what Hiyashida is?

Oh....THAT one.

Ofcourse I never knew the name simply because I never found the name in my list. Its called.....IVORY CUTTER in my practice list.
Perhaps the European version lists the names differently?
I even did a search over the internet to see what the heck this move is with no results.

How many tournaments have you attended, or at least seen during Tekken4? Please don't tell me you just play with your group of friends only. If you weren't there during the competetive tournament scenes of Tekken4, how can you claim that someone like Nina or Lee wasn't that great in Tekken4?

I'm not even a Lee player and I know this, I've seen, watched and gone up against Lee players in Tekken4, and Lee is without a doubt, extremely powerful.

ps: if you still don't agree with me, go to this www.tekkenzaibatsu.com, this is where the best players from the US post, debate and talk about Tekken. Just go and do a search in the Tekken4 forum and you'll see reasons why Lee was one of the best characters in Tekken4 hands down.

Ahm.....I ve known Tekkenzaibatsu since 1999 and learned many of my tactics from there and especially Lee's. So please stop trying to give the impression to others that I am ignorant on the subject
I never attended any of the great tournaments because I am not even in the US, but I used to download videos when I had time of some of the fights and also used to download some fights from a korean Tekken dedicated site which I lost unfortunately.

 

[Bub]

I am not trying to convince that Kuma is a good character. On the contrary I hate him and he is my worst character, but my point is that I get the same claim from so called "experts" that my opinion is a result of not competeing against a good Kuma player as well. So your claim doesnt say much. Not all "experts" share the same opinions, and they all have their arguements to base their claim.

Dude, Kuma is trash, any Real Expert will tell you that. Experts not having the same "opinions"...umm, when it comes to the Top Tier character's, it's pretty much, set and done. Ask JOP, Arario, UsmcOrge, JinKid, Jackie-Tran, MDJ, Nin, all of these guys play at the highest levels, they will tell you straight out that Lee is one of the Top 5 Best characters in Tekken4 period, there is no dispute here, Lee has proven himself in Tekken4.

Excuse me for not visiting tekkenzaibatsu too often. Just because I dont remember or got very familiar with some "names" doesnt mean I am not using any of the thinks you list. You throw all this moves into the discussion but as long as they are a part of only a discussion where you can claim these moves are "unpenetrable" they are no indication of anything, because I can still claim that I can cancel/block almost all of this efforts until he gets back a counter that may also prove fatal on him.

Never did I say they where "inpenetrable"...please find a quote of me where I said Lee had "inpenetrable" attacks. However there are moves for certain characters that just simply have so much priority in their attacks and in many cases have far more so in their arsenal than others. How can you "try" to attack Jin when his 2,1's if they hit you give's Jin's a +8 frame advantage, and on block they give him a +1 frame advantage?

This basically mean's, Jin will recover 8 frames before you can...do you know how powerful that is? This basically mean's he can keep the pressure on you, and basically all you can do is block for much of the match, have you seen any of the Evo2k4 matches...70% of the matches with Jin players involved them spamming 1,2's and 2,1's because almost every character had no answer to that.

Lee's ss+2 is a great example, it tracks so well, so even if you tried to ss it, it's nearly impossible, if you throw out any attack(so long as your not ducking) ss+2 can be guaranteed, this was a great counter to poking characters, because in Tekken4, Jab's where very, very strong, the only way you could really avoid ss+2 was to duck, but ss+2 was not meant to be spammed, it was meant to punish.

Effective? Ofcourse. Are they unpenetrable? NO!

Again, tell me where I stated "inpenetrable" in my last post. However Lee's game in Tekken4 is damn near it, only a few characters can fight against Lee well a few worthy mentions are Ling(AOP allows her to duck under some of Lee's best attacks, arguably Lee's most difficult matchup), Jin(For so obvious reasons, he has some of the best jab's and the most high priority attacks in the game, over half life dealing juggles, best wallpush game period, nuff said), and Nina(she can go toe to toe with him in poking, but not only that, she has an extremely strong turtling game), everyone else has a difficult time. T4 Lee can eat T4Steve alive since ss+2 can shut down Steve's best poking attacks, where are all high.

I also never implyied just standing there with hitman. You are using assumptions to convince my supposed "inexperience"

To even imply or state Hitman, and then to not even mention some of Lee's best and most useful moves like 1,2,4:4 or 1,3:3:3, or ss+2, gives me everysingle indication that

1. You don't know how to use Lee

2. You have no knowledge of how Lee plays like

3. You play with people who use Lee but don't know how to use him

4. You are inexperience in Tekken4

No you dont get it. Its not me who has issues using it. I just know from personal experience when it sused against me. If Lee's opponent isnt good enough ofcourse the tiger knee would rarely miss. Try it on someone who knows Lee perfectly as an opponent and it will either end up blocked, or missed in most cases.
Fast moves, with direct recovery wont give much opportunity for Lee to either sidestep or use the tiger knee to launch his opponent.

So I guess guys like JOP, Arario, and UsmcOgre who play at the highest levels, who've won numerous tournaments, who's been the top players in Tekken since TekkenTag, who've studied the Frames of each attack and learned to utilize it to their fullest potential "are not considered good" as you've stated by your post above, because well...gasp*...they get hit by Lee's u/f+4...and ALOT.

Did you ever think for one second that u/f+4 is quick, it can be used off the miststep or backstep, it can be used as a punisher on sidestep, and if it connects, it's a guaranteed juggle. Btw, this isn't only Lee's juggle might I add...Lee has more than one way of launching you.

Also you ignore my point that Lee being one of the best characters is a result of others being imbalanced and not so much developed, a problem of the game itself.

Lee is one of the best characters because he got toned up comming from TekkenTag to Tekken4. Every fighting game has a "Imbalanced" issue, it's not just Tekken, however this still doesn't change the fact that Lee is one of the best characters in Tekken4.

Ahm...you almost repeated what I siad only with more and different words.

The difference is that unlike in Tekken4 the imbalance now is due to others becoming relatively more destructive. Again a problem of the game itself (this time Tekken5). Not because Bryan is a better designed character for example in 5 (just as Lee wasnt a better designed character in 4. He had weaknesses but imbalances found on other characters made him look better).

What the heck are you saying now...are you telling me that Bryan didn't get better, but it was only because of how Tekken5 is now, that Bryan is now only better because of "imbalances" found on other characters so therefore Bryan just looks better ?

Lol, okay dude, you now have no idea what you are talking about...let me tell you some reasons why Bryan is One of the Best in Tekken5. First and foremost, Bryan got Stronger from Tekken4, he can deal out more damage now(more than his previous versions), not only that, things like d/f+3 even with out a counterhit in Tekken5 launches an opponent into the air, this now can lead to juggles...something that in Tekken4, Bryan never had the potential to do off of a d/f+3. He can now juggle off of his B+2,1 also and he has a good launcher in B+1, and not only that, but it gives out excellent block stun if blocked, giving Bryan frame advantages. His jab's although not as good as they where in T4, are still strong and good for pressuring.

Not to mention, Bryan has some of the Best Crush Attacks in a game engine where Crush Attacks have become powerful, and lets not forget he has some of the most powerful juggles in the entire game, and they are ridiculous easy, dealing out 70%+. Then you mention the fact he has the single best and most powerful wall game(Only Steve Fox can rival him) in T5 5.0, and there you have it, all of these and many, many more makes Bryan a few head and shoulders above the rest.

It's not because other players found out other ways to exploit with Bryan, it's because Namco themselves made Bryan better and yes, Bryan is much better designed character in Tekken5.

If what you said above is true, then why is Tekken5 Jin garbage when compared to his previous versions? He is the worst Jin ever in any Tekken game he has appeared in, and Ling, her AOP and her evasiveness is nowhere near his Tekken3, TekkenTag or Tekken4 counterpart. It's not due to just other's getting better, but having the other characters who where once good, toned down.

Lee has more practical moves,does more damage than in 4, and you have to rely on other tactics due to some changes.

Lee "only" does more damage in Tekken5 is because, if you didn't know by now...the lifebar in Tekken5 has shorter, compared to Tekken4's lifebar, which was infact, bigger . That's why everyone can deal out almost near death combo's, let's imagine if Tekken4 Jin was in Tekken5, dear lord, he would eat everyone alive with the shorter lifebars, one single JFLS launcher into an air juggle would wipe out 100%+ damage off of your lifebar and that is without a wall combo either. Could you imagine if Tekken4 Lee was still in Tekken5, his miststep the way sameway it was in T4, his ss+2, 1,2,4:4, air juggles and etc + wall game...dude, he would be Top Tier again w/out question.

But due to the fact that other characters got more destructive combos and moves than what Lee got, and due to the fact that you cant risk using the same tactics as in 4, his improved effectiveness is shadowed and mostly negatively felt by those that were extremely used with 4's Lee since in 4 other characters missed the easiness and flexibility Lee had which created imbalance issues.

Due to the fact that Lee got toned down going into Tekken5 (Yes, Namco made him weaker) is the mere reason why Lee is no longer doing as good as he is. While other characters like Steve, and Nina where not toned down, but infact for some idiotic reason by Namco, got toned up (I would say that this is mostly due to the fact that during Tekken4, there where a ton of Jin, Lee and Ling players, and those three where getting complained about the most, therefore they got nerfed while Steve and Nina where forgotten, or maybe even on purpose). So it wasn't because Lee got overshadowed...he literally got worse as a character.

see "Also you ignore my point that Lee being one of the best characters is a result of others being imbalanced and not so much developed, a problem of the game itself." The same counts for Steve and Nina of which almost all of her chain throws are easily canceled but was most effective near walls and cornering.

Do I hear a broken record, I know full well that fighting games are not balanced, any high leveled player in fighting games knows this. I've known this since Street Fighter II, and I know this even now. However that is not the point that I'm trying to say, what I've been arguing to you about is that you "claimed" that Lee was not good in Tekken4. Which I have stated to you on more than one occassion that Lee is one of the best characters in Tekken4, then you proceeded to tell me that he is "predictable" and "easy to counter"...which then I stated to you, that no he is not, due to him having so much priority on many of his most effective moves, giving him a great enough mixup to be able to punish, and set up mind games against your opponent.

However, if you want me to really tell you, here's how they do things, for example:

Tekken3, Law was considered Top Tier, because his standing 4 was 8 frames and it was a great punisher while doing excellent damage. His 3,4 if 3 connected, 4 was guaranteed, this lead to half life juggles, if you use his parry punch, and hit 2 right after, this lead to more than half life juggles, not to mention his B+1,2,1 is the best version out of any Law after him. Plus he did huge damage for being one of the fastest characters in the game, and was one of the only select few characters who had a low parry.

Then comes TekkenTag, look at Law now...he's nothing compared to his Tekken3 counterpart, it wasn't because other characters overshadowed him, it was because Law got nerfed, that's simply the reason why. His standing 4 is pathetically weak, 3,4 although is the same has far less priority and the juggle's it can lead too are no longer as damaging. B+1,2,1 is toned down, and no longer has the priority, or damage it once had, and he no longer does as much damage as he once did in T3.

He is just one single example, but he went down the same road as in the future, Lee would with Tekken4 going into Tekken5. Namco "tries" to balance the game, just look at the Mishima's and their most powerful and prized attack, EWGF(Hopefully you know what EWGF is), back in TekkenTag, that move would Hit Mid with Kazuya's comming out at 11Frames while Hei's was 12 frames, and it was the #1 best move in the entire game, infact the #1 best move ever in Tekken history.

The WGF in TekkenTag added with the fact that the Mishima's had the best wavedashing game mixup's made them the best characters in TekkenTag w/out question or debate, wavedashing in, if they ducked, WGF, if they try to block high, Hellsweep. It was sick, back then, and a ridiculously overpowered tatic. In Tekken5, the EWGF now only hits High, so you can actually duck it now...see the tone down, and what I'm trying to say to you about Lee being nerfed in Tekken5? He is not the same character period.

Oh, btw, Steve Fox is good in Tekken4 because he has arguably the best jab's in the game, 1,2,1's where ridiculous good, his Flicker Stance, ff+2, his footstomp, his sways, even his stungun was way better, and that all of his fast jab's and high priority attacks are safe...reasons why Steve is the safest character in the game, making him Top Tier. In T5 5.0 he's excellent because he has 1,2,1(1,2,1 is no longer as good as his Tekken4 version), but not only that, but he can go into Flicker instantly after 1,2,1 or f+2,1, and then cancel it into Alb, which can lead to huge damage, or else instead of going into Alb, he can go for the sweep, or else double spin into Alb or sweep, and even spin into a grab to catch opponents off guard.

Steve has his sways, d/f+1+2 is a great punisher, footstomp is a great move now, since it has the potentail to knock an opponent down, ff+2 on hit knocks opponent down, but on ch, it can lead to 80%+ juggles, and he can f+2,1 mixup carry an opponent to a wall during a juggle and deal out 100%+ damage with the air juggle and wall combo combined. Not to mention he's again the safest character in 5.0, and to top it off, he also has an infinity, making Steve the #1 best character in Tekken5 5.0.

Nina is good "not" because of her chain grabs in Tekken5 5.0, any high leveled player can 90% of the time get out of grabs(reasons why characters like King, and etc are no longer as good, back in Tekken2 they where strong because you couldn't get out of them), ever seen the highest levels of play, they can tech out of grabs almost 90% of the time. Nina is good because she has great poking, d/f+1,2 is great for punishing, an excellent and safe launcher in DC, excellent oki in u/f+1 and can be guaranteed after a juggle, Her solid throw that deals out 50% damage if the grab connects can lead to ridiculous Oki properties. B/f+1 if opponents try to tech. roll automatically bounces them up and leads to a juggle, 1,2,1,2,4 up against the wall does around 45%+ life. SS+2 no longer needs to counter hit to launch, which is ridiculous, b+1 leads to juggles, ff+3 on counterhit leads to juggles, f:3,3 does ridiculous block stun damage, and if they connect, they are an automatic juggle.

Lee was much easier to use btw than other characters. Thats one reason of his great popularity. He had the easisest and most extensive juggles and combos of all (and still has).

Lee was never that popular of a character playing wise, not until Tekken4, when everyone found out that miststep was so overpowered, when they found out that his 1,2's had so much priority, when they found out that ss+2 was ridiculously good, when they found out that he could juggle like a mad man. When they found out that 4,4,4,4 up against the wall was beastly, when they found out that 1,2,4:4 JF was guaranteed if 1 connected..and just think, 1 is a single jab, so if that hits, the entire thing hits.

When they found out that 1,3:3:3 is one of the most powerful moves in Lee's game, and when they found out that Lee with all of these great high priority moves made Lee one of the most popular characters to use, and when people started winning tournaments with Lee. This is what gave rise to Lee's popularity.

Oh....THAT one.

Ofcourse I never knew the name simply because I never found the name in my list. Its called.....IVORY CUTTER in my practice list.
Perhaps the European version lists the names differently?
I even did a search over the internet to see what the heck this move is with no results.

For someone to claim they know Tekken4 "well", and then proceed to "not" know what Hiyashida is to me, just makes absolutely no sense, I should've never even had to state that it was 1+4 to you. It's had this name for years now.

Ahm.....I ve known Tekkenzaibatsu since 1999 and learned many of my tactics from there and especially Lee's. So please stop trying to give the impression to others that I am ignorant on the subject

"If" you where a member of TZ, then you should've or should I say "would've" know that Lee was Top 5 in Tekken4, and has won and placed high consistantly during Tekken4. You would've known that Lee got toned down going into Tekken5, and that he is nowhere near his potential from Tekken4. Also, if you would've read all of the information correctly from TZ, you wouldn't be arguing against me saying that Lee was predictable and that he was better in Tekken5 then he is in Tekken4.

How many Tekken5 tournaments has Lee "ever" won, when compared to his Tekken4 Lee, who has won? None, my point still stands.

I never attended any of the great tournaments because I am not even in the US, but I used to download videos when I had time of some of the fights and also used to download some fights from a korean Tekken dedicated site which I lost unfortunately.

With the quote above, you have no real experience to tell me that (insert character name) isn't as good, because you have never even attended, been in, or competeted in a serious competetive atmosphere, and then you come and say to me that you know what your talking about because you download videos of great players and watch them ? Seriously dude, quit while you are ahead, basically your saying you've never even seen, or played against a Tekken4 Lee Player who knew how to use Lee's ridiculously high priority attacks in Tekken4 then, better yet, your saying you've never even played Tekken4 at the high competetive levels and yet you give this notion and argue against me that you are right, okay...no offense, but that is just scrub talk now.

This proves to me that you didn't even know of Lee's great attacks such as ss+2, or 1,2,4:4 or 1,3:3:3 until I posted it to you here in this forum, and seriously, don't give me any of this stuff that you can counter Lee because he's predictable...because if your that good, then you must be able to duck EWGF on reaction too right?

Give me some real facts, instead of your "opinions". Because everything that I'm telling you about Lee, has been used, tested, and has beaten out great competetive players during Tekken4, giving Lee the crown on more than one occassion. In short, Lee in Tekken4>Lee in Tekken5.

 

[Arwin]

Oh well...I guess I'll be looking forward to Tekken 6, hopefully they fix things up.

Did you ever get to try Tekken 5: DR on the PSP? Just wondering what you thought about it. I personally like it best of all of them, with so many characters to choose from and most of them quite balanced (though of course there are really many of them so there's bound to be two that are hard to get an even match out of).

To connect to the posts above here, Kuma has become a very powerful in here, and by relation, so has our love-struck sumo wrestler.

I really like PSP's Tekken ... it never gets old! Also love the timed bonus game command attack.

 

[Black Dragon37]

That's the problem right there. The same thing happened with Tekken 4. It played different and slower than the predecessors. I liked both VF3 and Tekken 4, because they were actually trying to do something new, but the slowness of the characters and awkwardness of the change into true 3D set both games back. Both comapnies have made minor tweaks, but it will hard to take a risk like VF3 or Tekken 4 again.

In all honesty, it would be better to create an all new fighting game franchise and possible reuse some old characters, and then hopefully, they could introduce new ideas as anm experiment.

I dunno about VF3, but Tekken 4 was penned by the fans because the characters were very unbalanced, and it was glitchy with well thought out (but not well executed) new stuff.

Really, Jin was dubbed "God Tier" because of a secret move he had that guarunteed wins. This was actually the main reason for T4 hatred.

Ironically, T5/DR isn't played as much by the competitive scene as T4 was.

 

[Nesh]

Dude, Kuma is trash, any Real Expert will tell you that. Experts not having the same "opinions"...umm, when it comes to the Top Tier character's, it's pretty much, set and done. Ask JOP, Arario, UsmcOrge, JinKid, Jackie-Tran, MDJ, Nin, all of these guys play at the highest levels, they will tell you straight out that Lee is one of the Top 5 Best characters in Tekken4 period, there is no dispute here, Lee has proven himself in Tekken4.



Never did I say they where "inpenetrable"...please find a quote of me where I said Lee had "inpenetrable" attacks. However there are moves for certain characters that just simply have so much priority in their attacks and in many cases have far more so in their arsenal than others. How can you "try" to attack Jin when his 2,1's if they hit you give's Jin's a +8 frame advantage, and on block they give him a +1 frame advantage?

This basically mean's, Jin will recover 8 frames before you can...do you know how powerful that is? This basically mean's he can keep the pressure on you, and basically all you can do is block for much of the match, have you seen any of the Evo2k4 matches...70% of the matches with Jin players involved them spamming 1,2's and 2,1's because almost every character had no answer to that.

Lee's ss+2 is a great example, it tracks so well, so even if you tried to ss it, it's nearly impossible, if you throw out any attack(so long as your not ducking) ss+2 can be guaranteed, this was a great counter to poking characters, because in Tekken4, Jab's where very, very strong, the only way you could really avoid ss+2 was to duck, but ss+2 was not meant to be spammed, it was meant to punish.



Again, tell me where I stated "inpenetrable" in my last post. However Lee's game in Tekken4 is damn near it, only a few characters can fight against Lee well a few worthy mentions are Ling(AOP allows her to duck under some of Lee's best attacks, arguably Lee's most difficult matchup), Jin(For so obvious reasons, he has some of the best jab's and the most high priority attacks in the game, over half life dealing juggles, best wallpush game period, nuff said), and Nina(she can go toe to toe with him in poking, but not only that, she has an extremely strong turtling game), everyone else has a difficult time. T4 Lee can eat T4Steve alive since ss+2 can shut down Steve's best poking attacks, where are all high.



To even imply or state Hitman, and then to not even mention some of Lee's best and most useful moves like 1,2,4:4 or 1,3:3:3, or ss+2, gives me everysingle indication that

1. You don't know how to use Lee

2. You have no knowledge of how Lee plays like

3. You play with people who use Lee but don't know how to use him

4. You are inexperience in Tekken4



So I guess guys like JOP, Arario, and UsmcOgre who play at the highest levels, who've won numerous tournaments, who's been the top players in Tekken since TekkenTag, who've studied the Frames of each attack and learned to utilize it to their fullest potential "are not considered good" as you've stated by your post above, because well...gasp*...they get hit by Lee's u/f+4...and ALOT.

Did you ever think for one second that u/f+4 is quick, it can be used off the miststep or backstep, it can be used as a punisher on sidestep, and if it connects, it's a guaranteed juggle. Btw, this isn't only Lee's juggle might I add...Lee has more than one way of launching you.



Lee is one of the best characters because he got toned up comming from TekkenTag to Tekken4. Every fighting game has a "Imbalanced" issue, it's not just Tekken, however this still doesn't change the fact that Lee is one of the best characters in Tekken4.




What the heck are you saying now...are you telling me that Bryan didn't get better, but it was only because of how Tekken5 is now, that Bryan is now only better because of "imbalances" found on other characters so therefore Bryan just looks better ?

Lol, okay dude, you now have no idea what you are talking about...let me tell you some reasons why Bryan is One of the Best in Tekken5. First and foremost, Bryan got Stronger from Tekken4, he can deal out more damage now(more than his previous versions), not only that, things like d/f+3 even with out a counterhit in Tekken5 launches an opponent into the air, this now can lead to juggles...something that in Tekken4, Bryan never had the potential to do off of a d/f+3. He can now juggle off of his B+2,1 also and he has a good launcher in B+1, and not only that, but it gives out excellent block stun if blocked, giving Bryan frame advantages. His jab's although not as good as they where in T4, are still strong and good for pressuring.

Not to mention, Bryan has some of the Best Crush Attacks in a game engine where Crush Attacks have become powerful, and lets not forget he has some of the most powerful juggles in the entire game, and they are ridiculous easy, dealing out 70%+. Then you mention the fact he has the single best and most powerful wall game(Only Steve Fox can rival him) in T5 5.0, and there you have it, all of these and many, many more makes Bryan a few head and shoulders above the rest.

It's not because other players found out other ways to exploit with Bryan, it's because Namco themselves made Bryan better and yes, Bryan is much better designed character in Tekken5.

If what you said above is true, then why is Tekken5 Jin garbage when compared to his previous versions? He is the worst Jin ever in any Tekken game he has appeared in, and Ling, her AOP and her evasiveness is nowhere near his Tekken3, TekkenTag or Tekken4 counterpart. It's not due to just other's getting better, but having the other characters who where once good, toned down.




Lee "only" does more damage in Tekken5 is because, if you didn't know by now...the lifebar in Tekken5 has shorter, compared to Tekken4's lifebar, which was infact, bigger . That's why everyone can deal out almost near death combo's, let's imagine if Tekken4 Jin was in Tekken5, dear lord, he would eat everyone alive with the shorter lifebars, one single JFLS launcher into an air juggle would wipe out 100%+ damage off of your lifebar and that is without a wall combo either. Could you imagine if Tekken4 Lee was still in Tekken5, his miststep the way sameway it was in T4, his ss+2, 1,2,4:4, air juggles and etc + wall game...dude, he would be Top Tier again w/out question.



Due to the fact that Lee got toned down going into Tekken5 (Yes, Namco made him weaker) is the mere reason why Lee is no longer doing as good as he is. While other characters like Steve, and Nina where not toned down, but infact for some idiotic reason by Namco, got toned up (I would say that this is mostly due to the fact that during Tekken4, there where a ton of Jin, Lee and Ling players, and those three where getting complained about the most, therefore they got nerfed while Steve and Nina where forgotten, or maybe even on purpose). So it wasn't because Lee got overshadowed...he literally got worse as a character.




Do I hear a broken record, I know full well that fighting games are not balanced, any high leveled player in fighting games knows this. I've known this since Street Fighter II, and I know this even now. However that is not the point that I'm trying to say, what I've been arguing to you about is that you "claimed" that Lee was not good in Tekken4. Which I have stated to you on more than one occassion that Lee is one of the best characters in Tekken4, then you proceeded to tell me that he is "predictable" and "easy to counter"...which then I stated to you, that no he is not, due to him having so much priority on many of his most effective moves, giving him a great enough mixup to be able to punish, and set up mind games against your opponent.

However, if you want me to really tell you, here's how they do things, for example:

Tekken3, Law was considered Top Tier, because his standing 4 was 8 frames and it was a great punisher while doing excellent damage. His 3,4 if 3 connected, 4 was guaranteed, this lead to half life juggles, if you use his parry punch, and hit 2 right after, this lead to more than half life juggles, not to mention his B+1,2,1 is the best version out of any Law after him. Plus he did huge damage for being one of the fastest characters in the game, and was one of the only select few characters who had a low parry.

Then comes TekkenTag, look at Law now...he's nothing compared to his Tekken3 counterpart, it wasn't because other characters overshadowed him, it was because Law got nerfed, that's simply the reason why. His standing 4 is pathetically weak, 3,4 although is the same has far less priority and the juggle's it can lead too are no longer as damaging. B+1,2,1 is toned down, and no longer has the priority, or damage it once had, and he no longer does as much damage as he once did in T3.

He is just one single example, but he went down the same road as in the future, Lee would with Tekken4 going into Tekken5. Namco "tries" to balance the game, just look at the Mishima's and their most powerful and prized attack, EWGF(Hopefully you know what EWGF is), back in TekkenTag, that move would Hit Mid with Kazuya's comming out at 11Frames while Hei's was 12 frames, and it was the #1 best move in the entire game, infact the #1 best move ever in Tekken history.

The WGF in TekkenTag added with the fact that the Mishima's had the best wavedashing game mixup's made them the best characters in TekkenTag w/out question or debate, wavedashing in, if they ducked, WGF, if they try to block high, Hellsweep. It was sick, back then, and a ridiculously overpowered tatic. In Tekken5, the EWGF now only hits High, so you can actually duck it now...see the tone down, and what I'm trying to say to you about Lee being nerfed in Tekken5? He is not the same character period.

Oh, btw, Steve Fox is good in Tekken4 because he has arguably the best jab's in the game, 1,2,1's where ridiculous good, his Flicker Stance, ff+2, his footstomp, his sways, even his stungun was way better, and that all of his fast jab's and high priority attacks are safe...reasons why Steve is the safest character in the game, making him Top Tier. In T5 5.0 he's excellent because he has 1,2,1(1,2,1 is no longer as good as his Tekken4 version), but not only that, but he can go into Flicker instantly after 1,2,1 or f+2,1, and then cancel it into Alb, which can lead to huge damage, or else instead of going into Alb, he can go for the sweep, or else double spin into Alb or sweep, and even spin into a grab to catch opponents off guard.

Steve has his sways, d/f+1+2 is a great punisher, footstomp is a great move now, since it has the potentail to knock an opponent down, ff+2 on hit knocks opponent down, but on ch, it can lead to 80%+ juggles, and he can f+2,1 mixup carry an opponent to a wall during a juggle and deal out 100%+ damage with the air juggle and wall combo combined. Not to mention he's again the safest character in 5.0, and to top it off, he also has an infinity, making Steve the #1 best character in Tekken5 5.0.

Nina is good "not" because of her chain grabs in Tekken5 5.0, any high leveled player can 90% of the time get out of grabs(reasons why characters like King, and etc are no longer as good, back in Tekken2 they where strong because you couldn't get out of them), ever seen the highest levels of play, they can tech out of grabs almost 90% of the time. Nina is good because she has great poking, d/f+1,2 is great for punishing, an excellent and safe launcher in DC, excellent oki in u/f+1 and can be guaranteed after a juggle, Her solid throw that deals out 50% damage if the grab connects can lead to ridiculous Oki properties. B/f+1 if opponents try to tech. roll automatically bounces them up and leads to a juggle, 1,2,1,2,4 up against the wall does around 45%+ life. SS+2 no longer needs to counter hit to launch, which is ridiculous, b+1 leads to juggles, ff+3 on counterhit leads to juggles, f:3,3 does ridiculous block stun damage, and if they connect, they are an automatic juggle.




Lee was never that popular of a character playing wise, not until Tekken4, when everyone found out that miststep was so overpowered, when they found out that his 1,2's had so much priority, when they found out that ss+2 was ridiculously good, when they found out that he could juggle like a mad man. When they found out that 4,4,4,4 up against the wall was beastly, when they found out that 1,2,4:4 JF was guaranteed if 1 connected..and just think, 1 is a single jab, so if that hits, the entire thing hits.

When they found out that 1,3:3:3 is one of the most powerful moves in Lee's game, and when they found out that Lee with all of these great high priority moves made Lee one of the most popular characters to use, and when people started winning tournaments with Lee. This is what gave rise to Lee's popularity.



For someone to claim they know Tekken4 "well", and then proceed to "not" know what Hiyashida is to me, just makes absolutely no sense, I should've never even had to state that it was 1+4 to you. It's had this name for years now.



"If" you where a member of TZ, then you should've or should I say "would've" know that Lee was Top 5 in Tekken4, and has won and placed high consistantly during Tekken4. You would've known that Lee got toned down going into Tekken5, and that he is nowhere near his potential from Tekken4. Also, if you would've read all of the information correctly from TZ, you wouldn't be arguing against me saying that Lee was predictable and that he was better in Tekken5 then he is in Tekken4.

How many Tekken5 tournaments has Lee "ever" won, when compared to his Tekken4 Lee, who has won? None, my point still stands.



With the quote above, you have no real experience to tell me that (insert character name) isn't as good, because you have never even attended, been in, or competeted in a serious competetive atmosphere, and then you come and say to me that you know what your talking about because you download videos of great players and watch them ? Seriously dude, quit while you are ahead, basically your saying you've never even seen, or played against a Tekken4 Lee Player who knew how to use Lee's ridiculously high priority attacks in Tekken4 then, better yet, your saying you've never even played Tekken4 at the high competetive levels and yet you give this notion and argue against me that you are right, okay...no offense, but that is just scrub talk now.

This proves to me that you didn't even know of Lee's great attacks such as ss+2, or 1,2,4:4 or 1,3:3:3 until I posted it to you here in this forum, and seriously, don't give me any of this stuff that you can counter Lee because he's predictable...because if your that good, then you must be able to duck EWGF on reaction too right?

Give me some real facts, instead of your "opinions". Because everything that I'm telling you about Lee, has been used, tested, and has beaten out great competetive players during Tekken4, giving Lee the crown on more than one occassion. In short, Lee in Tekken4>Lee in Tekken5.

Thats it. You ve went too far with it. Trying to prove that I am inexperienced just because I didnt attend any of the EVO tournaments and just because I dont share your opinions which may be nothing more than an effort to identify with the best players out there made you lose any credibility I had previously about you.

You even mixes other matters and characters in there that werent even a part of the discussion or an arguement (when in the world did I mentioned Jin?)

Lee in T4=problematic. Effective only due to imbalances period. He has predictability issues. Just because other characters have more issues that result to Lee being so effective in 4 doesnt change this fact.
All characters have attributes anyways. So many can jump in and start a gazzilion bubbling of how great they are here and there.
I ve had similar arguements with the other people claimning that Kuma (or insert any other character name here) is great (or best but not about Kuma though). Hell you even argued with something we both agree on?.

Anyways. Because I am not a man of WORDS and BUBBLING and BRAGING but a man of action here is a video of Lee doing 95 damage in Tekken5 performed by me. Just to show how destructive Lee is in 5.

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/Vigil22/?action=view&current=6850d24e.flv

edit: Oh forgot to add that I ve been in two local tournaments in my area. So yeah I ve been in a competitive enviroment and I seek to play against experienced players so to improve my techniques. US tournaments arent the only tournaments with good Tekken players.

 

[Bub]

Thats it. You ve went too far with it. Trying to prove that I am inexperienced just because I didnt attend any of the EVO tournaments and just because I dont share your opinions which may be nothing more than an effort to identify with the best players out there made you lose any credibility I had previously about you.

Umm, dude, you do have no experience whatsoever when it comes to Tekken4, from your post period. Anyone who proceeds to say "Lee was not good" in Tekken4 just makes me laugh, and umm...btw, you don't even have to be at the top level of play to see how ridiculously good Lee was in Tekken4. Anyone who has faced a confident Lee during the 4 years of Tekken4's tournament scene will have noticed it, T4 Lee has successfuly won tournaments, and has placed in the top 5 seedings on a consistant basis during it's 4 years of gameplay...seriously...how does this "evidence" that has been shown, not only in the USA, but in Japan, S. Korea, and even in the U.K., and S. Korea has arguably the best Tekken players in the entire world, yet it seems everywhere you went for competetion the results where the same...Lee was GOOD.

Oh yeah, one more thing, I'd rather believe anything that top players like JOP, UsmcOgre, MDJ, or NIN have to say than what you "believe" in your thoughts, because obviously you haven't even seen "one" big Tekken4 tournament to realize that Lee was that good.

You even mixes other matters and characters in there that werent even a part of the discussion or an arguement (when in the world did I mentioned Jin?)

Jin was an example to your "idea" that Lee was overshadowed by other characters in Tekken5, it was not because these characters where overshadowed, it was because they where nerfed going into Tekken5, any Jin player(I'm a Jin player) who has played Tekken4Jin and then goes to play Tekken5Jin will notice a huge difference..now are you to tell me that T5Jin is only "overshadowed" by everyone else now?

If it was Lee's Tekken4 counterpart, almost everyone in Tekken5 wouldn't be able to handle Lee, it is because Lee has been toned down that he is no longer as good in Tekken5. Why do you think there isn't as many "Lee players" now as there was back in Tekken4? Hmm, because Lee is no longer as strong as he was from Tekken4.

Lee in T4=problematic. Effective only due to imbalances period. He has predictability issues. Just because other characters have more issues that result to Lee being so effective in 4 doesnt change this fact.

There is "predictability" in any fighting game, however this is overpriority in fighting games as well, and Lee had tons of it. Lee was so fast, he had great quick attacks, a single 1 jab can lead to a JF, he had one of the best air juggles/wall games in Tekken4, he had multiple launchers, the best miststep he has ever had. He was excellent in Tekken4, yes other characters had issues, because they did not have as many overpowered options to use, and abuse as Lee, does this in any way change that Lee was still one of the Top 5 best? NO

All characters have attributes anyways. So many can jump in and start a gazzilion bubbling of how great they are here and there.

Again, there is no such thing as "balanced" anyone who comes in and claims otherwise will be set in there place period. Anyone who comes in and claims that T4 Lei was as good as T4 Jin obviously has no real high level of experience in Tekken4, anyone who claims that since Steve can't kick therefore he's not a great character has no real experience in T4 or T5 5.0. Any player with knowledge of the game at a higher level will instantly realize who know's the game and who's just posting up jibberish.

I ve had similar arguements with the other people claimning that Kuma (or insert any other character name here) is great (or best but not about Kuma though). Hell you even argued with something we both agree on?.

Dude, I even agreed with you that Kuma was trash, where was it in my post that I argued against you that Kuma wasn't. I even stated that Kuma players agreed that Kuma/Panda is not a good character. Kuma/Panda has no real options to get in on their opponents, so many unsafe attacks, even on block, has made Kuma in the bottom tier for numerous Tekken games.

Anyways. Because I am not a man of WORDS and BUBBLING and BRAGING but a man of action here is a video of Lee doing 95 damage in Tekken5 performed by me. Just to show how destructive Lee is in 5.

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/Vigil22/?action=view&current=6850d24e.flv

Lol, Nesh, you do know that your launncher is "situational" right? You do know that your juggle right there is ridiculously easy to do right? You do know that there are more than half of the other cast who can deal out that much damage and in some cases for others, more right? You also do know, that many of the characters who can deal as much damage as your precious Lee in Tekken5, are even better characters than Lee right?

You want me to list the fews..???? Steve, Bryan, Nina, DevilJin, Feng, Law, Kazuya, Heihachi...those are just to name a few.

However, in the end, a video of you doing a 95%+ combo means very little to prove that you know your "stuff" about Tekken4 (maybe you know alittle for Tekken5). You didn't even know what the abbreviations for "JF" meant, infact, do you even know how 1,2,4:4 animates like in Tekken4? I'm pretty sure you don't even know what that looks like, and please do tell me, what does Ewgf mean?

edit: Oh forgot to add that I ve been in two local tournaments in my area. So yeah I ve been in a competitive enviroment and I seek to play against experienced players so to improve my techniques. US tournaments arent the only tournaments with good Tekken players.

Two tournaments, and what where they for hmm??? Tekken5? So what, I've been to 50+ tournaments, and this is just in Tekken alone(Tekken3, TekkenTag, Tekken4, and Tekken5, including DR), if you where to count Street Fighter as well(playing tournament wise since 93), it's more than what I could ever post on here. So basically your saying right in above in your post, and basically telling me that you really do infact, have NO REAL knowledge of Tekken4, and your sitting here debating against me...when you've only seen 2 tournament scenes, and I'm pretty darn sure that they where within Tekken5 only...dude, no wonder you think Lee was "no good" in Tekken4. Stop right there already, this has proven it's case, period, you don't know Tekken4Lee.

And of course the US is not the only place to have good Tekken players, in Japan they have guys like Mishimaster(Heihachi player), Shou(Devil Jin player), and in S. Korea they have guys like Leedy(Kaz, and DevilJin player), MDJ(switches around alot between BOB, DJ, and Kaz), and NIN(Always Steve). All of these guys are excellent players, and have proven themselves.

However, let me ask you this, why don't you go on Tekkenzaibatsu, go into a Tekken5 Lee character specific forum (since it's the most active Lee specific forum) then post a topic saying "Tekken 5 Lee is better than Tekken 4 Lee" and then tell me exactly what you just stated to me in your past few post. I guarantee you will recieve the same answers that I've stated to you for the last 5+ post. You think I'm just saying that Lee was good in Tekken4 just because I'm trying to hop on the "bandwagon" with the top players, I guarantee everyone will say to you that T4Lee>T5Lee.

However, I know that you won't, because you'll probably give some lame excuse of "I don't need too, I already know what I know, and that's final." or some scrubby talk like that to avoid doing so.

Tekken4Lee is better than Tekken5Lee, because Tekken4Lee had far more safe/powerful/abusable options than Tekken5Lee. Tekken5Lee "only" takes off more life is because the lifebars are smaller in Tekken5, read it in TekkenZaibatsu, it clearly states this, also get over it if you think being able to do 95% with Lee in T5 is going to make your Lee great, then you've got along way of learnining ahead of you, and btw, in Tekken5, Lee is Middle Tier at best.

 

[cthellis42]

You people do know how to "chill," right?

 

[London Geezer]

You people do know how to "chill," right?

Wow i was gonna say the same thing...

I mean, this is a heated discussion about game characters... Not even games, i would understand if it was yet another "Halo3 vs Anything" thread, but a "Lee vs Chun Li" discussion just strikes me as really odd... How can someone write so much about game characters?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wow i was gonna say the same thing...

I mean, this is a heated discussion about game characters... Not even games, i would understand if it was yet another "Halo3 vs Anything" thread, but a "Lee vs Chun Li" discussion just strikes me as really odd... How can someone write so much about game characters?

I'm left wondering why Bub is even here? If he wants to talk about in-depth Tekken characters, wouldn't a Tekken forum like the one he already visits be the most sensible place. There he won't have to put up with all these rank amateurs who haven't a clue what they're talking about and are soooo far beneath his 1,2,4:4 bl+3, pi^2 maneouvre it's a wonder why they ever even play the game (yes, since Bub's revelations I feel I just wasted my time playing Tekken. I never really did understand Lee's 3,2,1,a,b,c Kung-Po chicken attack, so obviously I didn't have any fun with the game)?

And I repeat, what has any of this got to do with Tekken 6? Does Nesh's inability to perform Nina's Hokey-Cokey really need to be discussed here?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Wow i was gonna say the same thing...

I mean, this is a heated discussion about game characters... Not even games, i would understand if it was yet another "Halo3 vs Anything" thread, but a "Lee vs Chun Li" discussion just strikes me as really odd... How can someone write so much about game characters?

Well in all fairness there is more than just talk about characters going on. There are two persons here, one knows less and the other knows more. The one who knows less won't admit it, and the one who knows more is not willing to accept that . Those two should enter in ultimate Tekken tournament (five matches best of five rounds) held in Virtucon headquarters. The loser would be burned from the lasers that are attached on my pet sharks heads...

Anyways I don't understand why nesh can't just back off from this, I quess it's too late for that now. I know expert Tekken player when I see one and Bub certainly is one. I used to host Tekken 5 nights in my apartment last year when the game wasn't released in Europe yet. And many of the guys who visited me, were top Finnish Tekken players. I got my ass kicked, eventhough I consider myself to be pretty good casual player, however the difference is still pretty large. I must disagree with Bub little bit on the subject that it's really easy to pull of combos and EWGF in Tekken 5. I might succeed doing EWGF in maybe 1/5-1/7 of the time and even the combos require lot of time to master to a level that you can pull those off in critical situations, however the guys that came to my house pulled all those things like it was easiest thing in the world. If Bub want's to visit the site that is hosted by one of those finnish guys here's the link. I think there is some english discussion going on too.

http://www.arctic-charge.com/index.php?p=1&l=en

There are also some videos from some Tournaments held in Finland Like these

http://www.arctic-charge.com/index.php?p=2&i=29

 

[Nesh]

Umm, dude, you do have no experience whatsoever when it comes to Tekken4, from your post period. Anyone who proceeds to say "Lee was not good" in Tekken4 just makes me laugh, and umm...btw, you don't even have to be at the top level of play to see how ridiculously good Lee was in Tekken4. Anyone who has faced a confident Lee during the 4 years of Tekken4's tournament scene will have noticed it, T4 Lee has successfuly won tournaments, and has placed in the top 5 seedings on a consistant basis during it's 4 years of gameplay...seriously...how does this "evidence" that has been shown, not only in the USA, but in Japan, S. Korea, and even in the U.K., and S. Korea has arguably the best Tekken players in the entire world, yet it seems everywhere you went for competetion the results where the same...Lee was GOOD.

Oh yeah, one more thing, I'd rather believe anything that top players like JOP, UsmcOgre, MDJ, or NIN have to say than what you "believe" in your thoughts, because obviously you haven't even seen "one" big Tekken4 tournament to realize that Lee was that good.

Part in bold: Oh you perhaps MISSED one of my posts saying that LEE had some of the easiest juggling combos and was the most flexible?

The point of the discussion didnt start by trying to prove Lee was bad. I pointed out existent weaknesses. Lee and Nina were just examples I decided to mention and yes they did have weaknesses. ALL characters had issues and I was trying to explain why 4 didnt work out so well for many.
But NOOOOO!You assumed that the point of my post was to prove that Lee and Nina were bad, and you kept trying to prove that they were the best characters, which no matter how true this is still doesnt change the fact that the game had issues and they needed improvements just like every other character. Its expected for some to end up in a top 5 list anyways. Even if they have weaknesses.

Thats why no matter how much you tried to convince me this, I insisted on my initial post, because we were talking about 2 different directions.

You derailed the initial discussion into something else, you begun with an "offensive" attitude and you carried me away.

Jin was an example to your "idea" that Lee was overshadowed by other characters in Tekken5, it was not because these characters where overshadowed, it was because they where nerfed going into Tekken5, any Jin player(I'm a Jin player) who has played Tekken4Jin and then goes to play Tekken5Jin will notice a huge difference..now are you to tell me that T5Jin is only "overshadowed" by everyone else now?

You like misinterpreting my posts dont you?

I didnt say that LEE was overshadowed. I said his NEW and EXTRA effectiveness was overshadowed by some overpowered and improved characters! And dont forget that unlike T4, T5 has more than twice the characters, all altered in some areas, and it gives far too many choices and variability to players to choose between characters' effectiveness during battle. So players are even more fragmented than they were in 4 and its bound for some characters to take less "improvements" than others (imporvements is on " " simply because some effectiveness other characters got is due to imbalance issues again).

So no, neither Lee or Jin are overshadowed. As for Jin what Namco did was to make him a fairer adversary. He is just not the "GOD" he was in 4. Unlike 4 some moves dont give him a frame adandage and some of his initial commands that were done without much risk involved can nw end up Jin stuned like his 2,1,4,4 when blocked. But at the same time there are a few new tactics added that make him very effective. He still has some of the most powerful combos and wall hits which make him a very hard opponent.
example: his f+4 if counters the opponent he will fall on the ground on the spot, giving an opportunity to use f,f+4 then f+4 again (pretty painful when he rises) and LS which gives an opportunity to reduce even further the health of your enemy even if he blocks. Also his d/b+2,2 if used as a counter and then d/b+2,2,3 does lots of damage easily just like that. Even an amateur can do this. If you manage a juggling combo which will send him on a wall gives a superb opportunity for a 1,3,2,4 and LS and since he is on the ground cornered on a wall gives even further opportunities to damage your opponent. Also his u+4 unlike in 4 can now hit a ducking opponent which also gives an extra fast launcher opportunity. So no Jin wasnt nerfed out. Nacmo took away some of his advandages that made him an unfair adversary but added new destructive tactics.

If it was Lee's Tekken4 counterpart, almost everyone in Tekken5 wouldn't be able to handle Lee, it is because Lee has been toned down that he is no longer as good in Tekken5. Why do you think there isn't as many "Lee players" now as there was back in Tekken4? Hmm, because Lee is no longer as strong as he was from Tekken4.

I fail to understand where does this "conclusion" in bold stick.

I explained why there are less Lee players. I also explained why Lee was such a popular and effective character in 4. I am bored of repeating myself.

There is "predictability" in any fighting game, however this is overpriority in fighting games as well, and Lee had tons of it. Lee was so fast, he had great quick attacks, a single 1 jab can lead to a JF, he had one of the best air juggles/wall games in Tekken4, he had multiple launchers, the best miststep he has ever had. He was excellent in Tekken4, yes other characters had issues, because they did not have as many overpowered options to use, and abuse as Lee, does this in any way change that Lee was still one of the Top 5 best? NO

I agree on those but I ll add another question (although I ll say that some other characters had even more powerful and destructive juggles and wall attacks). Lee was very easy to use and his juggles were probably the easiest to perform as I already said
Does it change the fact that Lee had unneeded weaknesses due to T4 needing improvements on the characters' mechanics? NO!

Again, there is no such thing as "balanced" anyone who comes in and claims otherwise will be set in there place period. Anyone who comes in and claims that T4 Lei was as good as T4 Jin obviously has no real high level of experience in Tekken4, anyone who claims that since Steve can't kick therefore he's not a great character has no real experience in T4 or T5 5.0. Any player with knowledge of the game at a higher level will instantly realize who know's the game and who's just posting up jibberish.

Ahm... I implyied none of these as "imbalance issues". So I dont understand your bubbling (prbably for the billionth time). Trying to force impressions and words in my mouth again? If thats what you are doing its pretty pathetic.

Lol, Nesh, you do know that your launncher is "situational" right? You do know that your juggle right there is ridiculously easy to do right? You do know that there are more than half of the other cast who can deal out that much damage and in some cases for others, more right? You also do know, that many of the characters who can deal as much damage as your precious Lee in Tekken5, are even better characters than Lee right?

You want me to list the fews..???? Steve, Bryan, Nina, DevilJin, Feng, Law, Kazuya, Heihachi...those are just to name a few.

Ofcourse its freaking easy. You think I was trying to proove how GREAT I am? Stop judging me based on yourself.

This was just an example of how easy Lee can cause damage. That combo is super easy and even an amateur can perform it.

Even if it starts with a tiger knee or a simple d/f+2 it does 81 damage.

And yes others can do extremely destructive juggling and wall combos as well.
Point me where I stated otherwise.
So?

However, in the end, a video of you doing a 95%+ combo means very little to prove that you know your "stuff" about Tekken4 (maybe you know alittle for Tekken5). You didn't even know what the abbreviations for "JF" meant, infact, do you even know how 1,2,4:4 animates like in Tekken4? I'm pretty sure you don't even know what that looks like, and please do tell me, what does Ewgf mean?

And under this logic your complain that others can do so much damage doesnt prove anything either.

And I already said that the fact that I dont "know" (notice the "") "abbreviations" doesnt mean I dont use these. Its been a long time since I got into depth with these "abbreviations/definitions" so either I forgot them or I just dont know the names. For example I use Ewgf with Jin, Kazuya, Devil Jin and Heihachi but I didnt remember how that was called. Or I use Jin's counterpart of his thrusting uppercut and roundhouse punch just like an EWGF wich gives a higher advandage of frame and range. The last especially after purrying.

Does this mean I am not using it or I dont know about it? NO!

Talking to you is like talking with someone who claims he is better at football just because he has attended more football matches and knows more names and the history of each team than an uneducated kid who plays fottbal everyday in brazil that knows nothing about these but could be a born talent.

I only hope you dont happen to be one of those that claim DOA is better than Tekken because they have been present in many EVO tournaments too.

Two tournaments, and what where they for hmm??? Tekken5? So what, I've been to 50+ tournaments, and this is just in Tekken alone(Tekken3, TekkenTag, Tekken4, and Tekken5, including DR), if you where to count Street Fighter as well(playing tournament wise since 93), it's more than what I could ever post on here. So basically your saying right in above in your post, and basically telling me that you really do infact, have NO REAL knowledge of Tekken4, and your sitting here debating against me...when you've only seen 2 tournament scenes, and I'm pretty darn sure that they where within Tekken5 only...dude, no wonder you think Lee was "no good" in Tekken4. Stop right there already, this has proven it's case, period, you don't know Tekken4Lee.

And of course the US is not the only place to have good Tekken players, in Japan they have guys like Mishimaster(Heihachi player), Shou(Devil Jin player), and in S. Korea they have guys like Leedy(Kaz, and DevilJin player), MDJ(switches around alot between BOB, DJ, and Kaz), and NIN(Always Steve). All of these guys are excellent players, and have proven themselves.

However, let me ask you this, why don't you go on Tekkenzaibatsu, go into a Tekken5 Lee character specific forum (since it's the most active Lee specific forum) then post a topic saying "Tekken 5 Lee is better than Tekken 4 Lee" and then tell me exactly what you just stated to me in your past few post. I guarantee you will recieve the same answers that I've stated to you for the last 5+ post. You think I'm just saying that Lee was good in Tekken4 just because I'm trying to hop on the "bandwagon" with the top players, I guarantee everyone will say to you that T4Lee>T5Lee.

However, I know that you won't, because you'll probably give some lame excuse of "I don't need too, I already know what I know, and that's final." or some scrubby talk like that to avoid doing so.

Tekken4Lee is better than Tekken5Lee, because Tekken4Lee had far more safe/powerful/abusable options than Tekken5Lee. Tekken5Lee "only" takes off more life is because the lifebars are smaller in Tekken5, read it in TekkenZaibatsu, it clearly states this, also get over it if you think being able to do 95% with Lee in T5 is going to make your Lee great, then you've got along way of learnining ahead of you, and btw, in Tekken5, Lee is Middle Tier at best.

Look honey, good for you if you attended so many tournaments and believe that good players are only in the US, Japan and Korea. Atleast I participated in 2. I know you have this urge to show off how much of a great Tekken player you are but I dont care. Your attitude is childish at best.

You are only hoping that you will prove me inexperienced. I am not going to continue discussing on fragmented and misintepreted posts, bubbling and braging because quality of this discussion have fallen vertically.

All these nonsense "I know you wont go to zaibatsu" "you will say this" because "you will do this" just show how pointless it is dicussing with you because you arent discussing objectively. You discuss only under the ASSUMPTION that I dont have knowledge which on the process makes you misinterpet everything especially my first post (which is ofcourse why my first post started from "white" and ended up as "black" thanks to you just because you know that "white" and "black" are both made up of all the "colors").