The Full TEKKEN 6 trailer.

You people do know how to "chill," right?

 

Its not my fault. I merely pointed out some things I believed needed improvements in Tekken4 and he went out to discuss how better Lee was than anyone else.

I didnt even make comparisons between Lee and other characters.

 

Lol, wait, so now your going to tell me, that I kept this going. Firstly, to even "complain" about Lee and Nina having weaknesses in Tekken4 is an idiotic issue. If you wanted to complain about a character who had weaknesses in Tekken4, it's obviously Lei, or Kuma, a character you even stated who is horrible. When you say to someone like me, that Lee has "weaknesses" and are predictable, and "easy" to counter...seriously dude, your basically saying that Lee is easy to beat. Don't try to switch it and make it something else.

his improved effectiveness is shadowed and mostly negatively felt by those that were extremely used with 4's Lee since in 4 other characters missed the easiness and flexibility Lee had which created imbalance issues.

Does that ring a bell?

What "new and extra effectiveness?" seriously, post on here what great "new effectiveness" that Lee has now that his Tekken4 character part did not only have, but 10x more than his Tekken5 counterpart. You completely missed the entire point that I stated, that Lee was "toned down", meaning he became a far more worse character than he was in Tekken4 going into Tekken5, which is the mere reason why Lee is no longer as effective. Everything that he could greatly abuse in T4 is either slowed down, has poor recovery, has horrible frame disadvantages on block while a few things stayed the same...this is the reason why Lee is no longer as good in Tekken5.

Roster's mean nothing, how great is Baek? How great is Gan-ryu? How great is Wang? How great is Asuka? It all depends upon who Namco decides to nerf comming from the previous game and who Namco decides to leave the way they are, or who they decide to tone up...the simple answer is, Lee was toned down in Tekken5, reasons why Lee is no longer the powerhouse that he is in Tekken5 period.

 

Guys, take it to PM, start a different thread that is SPECIFICALLY to talk about gameplay, or--again--chill out.

As much as we are apt to delve into games and run on tangents, a line-by-line technical analysis (sprinkled with some eCock-comparison, it seems) is thoroughily distracting and pointless to anyone coming into a thread thinking "ooh, a trailer?"

I'd request a mod break out the conversation into its' own thread where it could be paid-attention-to or ignored at one's leisure and leave this one still usable when they finally DO start releasing more Tekken 6 footage. (But I also don't want to make more work for anyone... )

 

They've already been asked for as much, and just ignore us. Bub has absolutely no contribution to make in that regard - he's ignored every comment (and neg rep) to focus solely on Tekken and Lee. At least Nesh acknowledges the existence of the rest of the forum-goers. Bub hasn't even said 'sorry' or 'I don't care'! Is that a constructive forum member? Nope. To me he just comes across as a blow-hard, no matter how right or wrong his opinons.

I second a motion to clean up this thread, so I don't keep coming in looking for new Tekken6 news only to see Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee at it for a short-book's worth of comments. Either that or Nesh lets it go, because Bub isn't going to.

 

Geeezzz longest post ever.

I'm surprised Namco hasn't put out some mock screen grabs or something.

The whole 1080p thing has me worried, it can't be that Namco don't know how to grasp shaders and what not as Trust Bell is looking pretty awesome.

Saying that neither of the Gundam games are looking much good, and the PS3 one sure doesn't come close to the E305 trailer.

Hmmm seems Namco overesitimated themselves.

Edit:- I just remembered Trust Bell isn't dev'd by Namco is it.. d'uh

 

Namco has probably only started on, or at least, recently working on Tekken6, considering they went through three modifications for trying to fix Tekken5, so it wasn't a broken mess. I highly doubt we'll be seeing any new features, pictures or what not until either later this fall, or else early first quarter next year.

Also, everything that I've stated has pertained to "Tekken", and considering this is a Tekken related thread, I don't see anything wrong with it. If I was bashing about someone's sister, brother or something, then of course, or talking about something completely not related to the topic, then by all means, okay.

However, I apologize if I've interrupted anyone into comming into this topic, I'd be more than happy to take it to pm's .

 

Ahhhh, well. You need to recalibrate your ontopicometer then. Posting about Teken 4 gameplay in a thread about Tekken 6 vids is as wrong as posting FFVIII gameplay in a FFXII review thread, or Halo1 gameplay techniques in a thread about Halo3, or SuperMario gameplay in a thread reviewing pics from Mario Galaxies. The topic is particularly about one iteration of a franchise and not the whole franchise! An occassional reference to compare to an older title or such is fine and expected, but when you're deviating too far, normally some people post as much and then's the hint to get bakck on track.

 

No. This is how the discussion changed after you derailed my initial point. But you keep going on that. "Well continue.

You also confuse absolute with relative. Weaknesses doesnt necessarilly imply easier to beat than others. Judging a character in "absolute value" he has weaknesses. BUT Relatively to others he had an advandage.

I doubt you will understand the difference. Well, thats why you changed everything into a character comparison in the first place anyways.

Yeah
1)that "his improved effectiveness is shadowed" and not Lee himself

2)That history repeats itself. Dedicated fans of one character complain when changes are made on him on the next installment. Why? Because they are forced to change their previously effective technique which might have taken them months to master.

Just as masters and hardcore fans complained about many of their favourite characters with the introduction of 4. Its laughable if you think about it especially when the claim "Tekken4 is 70% luck and 30% skill" emerged then.

I ll post at the end what changed with lee so it doesnt get mixed with all your bubbling

Read this again:
"2)That history repeats itself. Dedicated fans of one character complain when changes are made on him on the next installment. Why? Because they are forced to change their previously effective technique which might have taken them months to master."

You are one of hem

I am a Jin player as well. Point?

Your complains show two things

1)You suck at Tekken5's Jin and you have no clue how to use him effectively


"2)That history repeats itself. Dedicated fans of one character complain when changes are made on him on the next installment. Why? Because they are forced to change their previously effective technique which might have taken them months to master."
Just in case you didnt get it.

He is no longer indistructible and Namco did GREAT for making him like that.

One thing I hate about when using a character it is when he is SO good when mastered he is indestructible (as in the case of Jin in 4) which takes away the sense of achievementbecause other characters have no chance at winning against mine. So hell yeah. I love Jin even more in 5.

Some though cant take the increasing possibility of losing. Just like you. You want a "God" Jin. I want a Jin that is not.

So what if Namco took all these things away?
You just prove that Namco made Jin a fairer adversary. GREAT THING.

Which leades to this part:

You have comprehention problems because I didnt state that he was upgraded. On the contrary here's a direct quote of what I said:
"As for Jin what Namco did was to make him a fairer adversary. He is just not the "GOD" he was in 4. Unlike 4 some moves dont give him a frame adandage and some of his initial commands that were done without much risk involved can nw end up Jin stuned like his 2,1,4,4 when blocked"

Half of this part is explained on the above quotes. About Lee just wait and I ll explain you what changed

Oh I also forgot this:


"2)That history repeats itself. Dedicated fans of one character complain when changes are made on him on the next installment. Why? Because they are forced to change their previously effective technique which might have taken them months to master."

Steve and Paul. Tekkenzaibatsu's juggling videos are proof. About the "mechanics" just wait

Read other parts of this post

He is NOT my Lee. Its Everyone's Lee. Because you used your "knowledge" of command input and names to brag off your experience, you assumed that me demonstrating Lee with a stupid combo that even a 12 year old can do was an effort to brag as well. Well no.

Again assumptions.

Jesus here we go again. Thats what you WANT to believe. If you have experience with Tekken for years you get practical understanding and experience of some things after trial and error and info sharing with others, you are just as practical. You dont need for example tekkenzaibatsu to know that some moves need precission timing. I am also not the kind of person who will spend hours trying to memorize names. But I download videos of juggling combos, tournaments and explainations instead which I find more practical.

The first people who started the abreviations from the beginning begun with trial and error, sharing and practical experience as well.

WTF? I didnt compare the EWHF with EWGF! I only ment that the EWHF offers a higher advandage over WHF!! NOT EWGF!! Nothing more nothing less. You are proving me once again that you misinterpret my posts because you arent discussing objectively, but rather discussing under the idiotic assumption that I dont know.

All this is just bubbling once again which were answered tons of times. And since I am bored of huge chopped posts I ll continue on more important things

Now about Lee.

Lee changed a lot compared to 4, especially on juggling combos and wall combos some things that were previously effective now are a bad idea. His 4,4,4,4 which you like talking about so much does relatively less damage not only compared to Lee's other moves in 5, but too less compared to commands other character's have under their disposal especially on wall combos on which 4,4,4,4s seemed practical in 4. Also something that many times players could exploit in 4 was the ability to sidestep more effectively than in 5 away from many moves which gave opportunities to launch the opponent on air for a juggle.
Also many might have already noticed that the most favourable stage in 4 used by most hardcore fans and in tournaments was the Arena -this specific stage enabled Lee an infinite juggle wall combo or if that failed an extensive juggle wall combo. Not only offers Lee many chances to use his wall hits but in case he is far from a wall, his extensive, long range juggling can get the opponent on a wall finally and start a wall hit there. Not only that but many of the previous juggling combos simply DO NOT WORK in 5. Some hits will miss the target and the combo will fail.
To make things worse unlike 4 now stages are more open leveled (walls far off, absence of uneven surfaces). Forget the many chances you got in 4 to use wall hits in almost every chance given possible.

So whats there for Lee? Just like in 4 he still has the easiest juggles in the game. Error isnt something often with Lee's juggling. Namco also added many middle attacks, which were absent in 4. His u/f+3+4 isnt a high hit anymore. You can get an opponent while ducking or raising. In 4 this move was too limited compared to 5 because it was easily avoided, thus almost a useless move except on special occasions. Also another move which was 99% worthless in 4 was 4,3,4. If you wanted your ass kicked this was a BRILLIANT idea. Try it. You will enjoy a beautiful uppercut and a gorgeous juggling.....inflicted against you.
In 5 they have changed this move from 3 high kicks into 2 high and a summersault. This was also so effective on walls, and it gave such a huge advandage to Lee that Namco made alterations to it in DR so the last hit wouldnt hit the opponent in case of a wall hit.
And dont forget that changes in DR like this one were made to correct imbalance issues in 5 experienced players complained about. Either Namco was dumb for "toning down" Lee even more in DR, or they did it after they got feedback from masters. So there goes the claim that Lee wasnt "good" in 5.
Namco also got rid of 1+3:3:3 and replaced it with f+3,3,3,3,4. The first was either not used at all, or too abused by those fe players that got JF perfectly (there you go I now use abreviations. I suddenly turned into a master ) which gave a chance for a juggling combo as well. So they deleted it. The replacing move has an advandage in 5 in that, it starts with a middle attack (so ducking want let you get away with it) which if proves succesful on the first hit, the next hits will be guaranteed (so ok Lee lost 1,2,4:4, you now have another move with guaranteed hits). It doesnt involve much risk either if blocked. Lee also gained another pressure strategy thanks to the change made in 4,3,4. In the mist step attacks if you are aware of your opponent's state you will sometimes find very useful to add presure with d+4,4,u+3 or/and d+4,4,3,4.


There are more things to mention which I currently cant recall at the moment.

I am not expecting you to agree, but I dont give a damn really. It is almost always the same story with each installment. Fanatics of characters that were unfairly powerful and effective compared to others in one installment always complain about balancing changes in the next that make him a fairer opponent. They see these changes as a "toning down that make that particular character suck".

Well just learn and adapt with the changes instead of complaining that your character is no longer a "GOD".


It will be very amusing when Namco introduces new needed changes in Tekken6 characters' juggling combos and damages for balance issues.
Players complaining that Steve/Feng (I think they were the two finalists in EVO2006 right?) are unfairly effective and powerful compared to 5's Jin, will be very glad to hear that in 6 Feng/Steve will be fairer opponents, while dedicated Feng/Steve players will start swearing in forum boards that they were toned down.
Just as currently many players are happy with 5's Bryan while some Jin players are pissed with both 5's Bryan and Jin. Ironic isnt it?

Exactly what you are doing here. So much for beng a hot shot eh?
More like someone who wants as many unfair winnings as possible to brag off how great he is.
Well that alone puts me above you since I want as much challenge as possible.



Anyways. Since the matter brought it, here are 2 tips from personal experimentation for other Jin players who are still learning him (bub not included because he is TOO perfect with Jin already).

1)For those that find it hard to purry and perform an EWHF directly after. By setingt R1 as RP+RK I noticed that if you perform Jin's f,d~d/f,+R1 Jin will perform his EWHF(or WHF) despite that R1 is set as 2+4 instead of just 2. So you can use R1 for purrying and his wind hookfist which makes life easier than using 2+4 and 2 as different input commands.

2)Some still practicing with Jin might have noticed Jin's b+1+2. Some are also familiar with Jin's b+1+2*,d,u,b,f but either dont know what is used for or those that know find it too risky.
Try it after Jin's juggling, assuming you have risen your opponent in the air, perform 1 then b,f+2,1 then d/b+2,2,3 (note1:dont use 1 in case you think you arent close enough otherwise the last 3 hit wont get the opponent, note2: 1 can be chosen to be used second too). You can also use this juggle which is easier: b,f+2,1 then b,f+2,1>2
After the last hit your opponent will be swept away. Even the better if he hits a wall. You now have the time to perform b+1+2*,d,u,b,f without risk. But almost NEVER do this while your opponent is near.
This transforms your Wind Hookfist and your Devil Hell Trip for some seconds. Your Devil Hell Trip if blocked wont leave Jin stunned. Instead it will perform fully the move as if it wasnt blocked. Your Wind Hookfist will also be faster, reminiscent of the one present in T4 (frame advandage and EWHF proberties). It also adds pressure if blocked. You will know you succeeded if your hands emit a white light when you perform your DHT or WHF.


edit: PS: Hey Bub I know by the time you are reading this sentence you migh have wasted half an hour chopping my post and writting more jibberish.

edit2: Oh and also, dont post here. PM me instead. We fucked up the thread

 

Jeez, wow at your posts. Anyway I was just trying to rememeber, back in the days of Tekken2/3/Tag I used to play as this guy, Can't rememeber his name, Lei/Lee or something. He's the chinese cop who turned into a full blown martial arts guy...Think it was Lei.

He was such a kick ass character, not everyone played as him, they preferred Paul and Jin and stuff.

 

Yep thats Lei alright. Indeed I rememer that most people went for Paul (Atleast in my area) back in these days too. Actually too many went for him, it was like a Pual addiction. I was really pissed for quite a while because I wasnt used to the stick and so I was pretty doomed against him at the arcades

 

Pfft... Paul was crap. Total middle tier. You could do a lk+lk+rp>kp<u*rk^3-booboo on him and deal 1290% damage with Jin. I mean, everyone knows that.

 

<smacks forehead>

 

This is terror! If this goes on much longer, some president will get involved and bring war to you!

 

I loved Lei's Ti Chi style (please, no Martial Arts guys tell me how I'm wrong and it's obviously Kwon Po Ko when you look at his mongoose stance and see that he's standing on the left leg instead of the right one...) but in amateur games, he was whipped. I played numerous Tekken against friends and I put in a little effort to try and learn moves. I was good with Anna in her Zebra suit using counter-attacks for example (good in 'I could stop my frined's attacks' kinda way). On the whole though, one friend played (Martial) Law and the other player Baek and they'd just tap buttons and see what happens. Baek got up huge kicking combos that wasted you, and Law did multiple Rainbow Kicks from which there (seemed to be) was no recovery.

I'm not sure who these games are targetted at. Rank amateurs or Seasoned die-hard pro's? The two requirements must be very different. In the development of a sequel surely Namco are targetting the masses? I expect much of the same. There's those who'll just mash buttons randomly and every once in a while go 'ooo, look what I just did!'; those like me who stop and look at the combo lists, try a few, stop again, try a few more, and generally forget them and keep ending up with Yoshimtsu hopping around on his sword half the time no matter what move I was trying to pull off; and those who actually know what's meant by 1,2,4:4 br+tl < u*rk^3-booboo. The game balance will probably be the same, which I think I wouldn't bother with. To a rank amateur, these games seem far too samey. They need a game where people can play with negligable skill and still get enjoyment, and yet be different somehow to all the other Tekkens, but I've no idea how they'd do that unless they go with some manic DS3 controller waving.

 

rofl... are you guys really fighting about this?

 

IMHO, fighting games are not so much "aimed" at multiple levels as "absorbed" at them. There's a modicum of skill needed for any of them that goes above most other video games, but the games seem to be aimed at middle-road enthusiasts, and contoured for different tastes. VF for the more technical types, Tekken for more all-around players, SF for SF fans and more classical flava , Soul Calibur for weapons enthsiasts, DOA for boobie enthusiasts...

Point is, every iteration of these games gets chewed up and spit out by the tournament players differently, and they pretty much take them for what they will. Characters hop between "tiers" with rampant abandon, subtle tweaks take on extremely larger meaning, ANY system bug gets abused to the fullest degree... Meanwhile, that audience is extremely tiny in comparison, typically very fickle, and will do what it wants (since they don't feel compelled to continuously upgrade or switch systems--just play what's new and then if it doesn't pass muster, re-emphasize the older and "better" games they've been playing forever anyway.) If ONE mistake can seriously hurt a title on the tournament circuit, it doesn't make much sense to design with that sensibility in mind, as it doesn't matter how much you obsess over your title; ANYthing can hurt it.

They are concerned with retaining their fans, sure, but they're similarly concerned with expanding their audience and drawing in new players, because any insular audience is a stagnating one. Basically every change we see is toward those ends. And while companies will backstep from "misses" they have along the way, that will still always be their design goal.

Personally, I like playing fighting games. A LOT of them. But the moment I start spending half-an-hour in practice mode trying to perfect an air combo or give one rat's ass about "frame advantage..." I like to play with friends and concentrate simply on "having fun." Obsession doesn't sit well with me.

 

I'm the same. Really, TRUST ME. SERIOUSLY... What? WHAT DID YOU SAY? HEY WHAT U LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT FOR? STOP DOING THAT! I CAN SEE YOU! R U SAYING I'M OBSESSIVE? ME?!

 

Well I cant believe I am fighting over this either. Probably my description of what I disliked on some characters went a bit far with my reply on his reply ( )-I got carried away due to his post- but some take a statement more seriously and literally. I never considered Lee one of the least good characters, on the contrary he was one of my fav in 4, but I am ready to spill out bitter words about any character even if thats my fav or belongs on the top most fav worldwide.

You will often see dedicated fans get pissed at changes, sometimes asking for the
"old" back. Especially old timers that grew up with a specific character and mastered some strategies, wont even consider something that may go against their fav character and experience.
If they cant get a win with their old experience due to changes in the next/new installment you will often hear the excuse "thats because Namco ruined him and changed this or that" since they take that personally. TOO PERSONALLY!

I mean...some people take losing so seriously they cant even sleep at nights, or so pissed they start accusing the changes. Problem is in each installment there will always be people complaining. There are always changes on characters, expecially from feedback and complains. Some want things to remain the same since they are so good with them, others (and usually players of characters they believe need some work) ask for these changes and many times they are excused.

With Tekken4 for example almost none of the previous techniques had the desired result (ofcourse Namco should have made a few more tweaks on 4 to fix some issues since it was the first effort to make it a true 3D fighting). When it was first introduced some hardcore fans got their asses kicked by amatuers. They went to blame this on the game. The popular belief back then was "4 is 30% skill 70% luck". A year later T4 masters could beat any amateurs ass. Then 5 came and they had to go back to the drawing board. You can see this at the 5 tekkenzibatsu forums too.

If you think this discussion was crazy, go to Tekkenzaibatsu forums. You will see a 7 page thread of disagreements why Kazuya sucks and why he doesnt in 5


edit: Something I d like to add after reading up all the discussion again. I have to admit that some of my claims on T4's Lee were far fetched sounding. Its true that Lee was a great character in 4 not that I wanted to state otherwise but wrongly gave the opposite impression.

To clear things up what I didnt like in Lee in 4 is what I didnt like in almost every character in 4. This wasnt directed towards Lee or characters specifically, but towards the whole game. Specifically I believe that Namco should have made more tweaks on the gameplay layout of 4, because the characters' controls and movelist evolved on four Tekkens that had a semi-3d and not a true 3D gameplay layout. Moves evolved mostly on a limited 2D-like axis. They didnt feel perfectly adapted on the new 3D gameplay. That said I liked 4's emphasis on ground fights and varied possibilities (sometimes they felt slightly random though) due to uneven stages but at the same time 4 was the Tekken that could have won the best fighting crown but lost it due to gameplay, design and imbalance issues (more specifically players discovered either infinite combos or too powerful wall attacks with some specifc characters that others didnt have a corresponding alternative) but as I always reply to people who disliked 4, it was the first Tekken to get a 3D overall after so many years, it was expected it wouldnt be perfect but it was a fresh experience.

The thing went out of control because bub got the impression I was refering to Lee himself which carried me away and ended me up in a dispute.

I also admit the possibility I may need more work with 4's Lee. Despite that I never tolerate someone who, instead of sharing and proposing or more importantly ask if I tried a few strategies, deals with me like a second class person/player from just one statement he disagrees on. BECAUSE I AM NOT! I am always open for different and even opposite opinions if the other person has the appropriate attitude. Otherwise if the appropriate attitude is absent dont expect my best self out of me.

 

You are all ignoring both Xiaoyu and Lili, and I HATE you for it!