iceberg187
Regular
FYI, Rare created the engine that this game runs on, it is revision 1 of this engine.
The Big Forza 2 Thread *
- Thread starter Cheezdoodles
- Start date
Mintmaster
Veteran
Movement of the car body has nothing to do with the mass of the wheels. Maybe a stupidly heavy wheel would launch the car upwards when it hit a bump, but for incoherent high frequency motions it doesn't matter. Do some simple calculations. When the spring constant and damping coefficient are chosen to control the mass of the car, the f=ma term from the wheel is very small compared to the other forces (especially the damping). 30Hz is very far from the resonant frequency, so you shouldn't see a lot of car motion unless it's got really stiff shock absorbers.
Even if they simply did raycasting for the wheel position (I actually did that in a little game I made), the reaction of the car's body shouldn't matter much. You still take the position/velocity of the wheel to figure out the reaction force on the body. Unsprung mass would only affect the instantaneous contact of the tire with the ground, and even then the average contact force (and thus video-game perceptible roadholding) would be the same.
Finally, I don't see the complete lack of body movement that you are. Here's a video, for example, that shows movement of the car when it goes over the curbing and grass.
Errr... What? Source maybe?
al·lu·sion /əˈluʒən/ –noun 1.a passing or casual reference; an incidental mention of something, either directly or by implication: an allusion to Shakespeare.
In this case the relevant bit would be mentioning something by implication. The interviewer didn't say that Forza 2 was "the real Grand Tourismo Killer" outright, but his question made the implication that it was. Hence my (proper) use of the word "allusion".
I'm sure this is fascinating to everyone reading this thread looking for Forza 2 discussion.
Exactly, 'casual reference'. Which this wasnt
. Anyway, you're getting boring.My point is, overall the game is good but nothing more than an update. Hopefully PGR4 will be more ambitious in its scope.
So, i got the game on friday, spend a lot of time on singleplayer, finally decided to go multiplayer. Figured il go D-Class (lowest car class) and take it from there. I quickly noticed that everybody where using their own tuned up D400 PI (highest PI ranking in D class), so i went back and started building my own.
Took a Lotus Elan and started tweaking it up to 400 aswell. Then i went racing.
It was awesome, there was no Instant Win car, everybody used whatever they felt like using, and the balance was good. You can win with "any" car, and the differences are great fun.
For example, i was battling first place with a 1970 Boss Mustang, it was a cat and mouse game, i could out turn him, but he had far better accel and top speed.
Only "unbalance" i noticed, was that the worst drivers had tuned up FWD vechicles. And we all know understeer= ending up in a wall.
Took a Lotus Elan and started tweaking it up to 400 aswell. Then i went racing.
It was awesome, there was no Instant Win car, everybody used whatever they felt like using, and the balance was good. You can win with "any" car, and the differences are great fun.
For example, i was battling first place with a 1970 Boss Mustang, it was a cat and mouse game, i could out turn him, but he had far better accel and top speed.
Only "unbalance" i noticed, was that the worst drivers had tuned up FWD vechicles. And we all know understeer= ending up in a wall.
standing ovation
Regular
The trailers made Microsoft's über sim seem riveting.
But actual game play is melodramatic in comparison. Don't get me wrong. Forza 2 is incredibly entertaining; it's just not as cinematic (or emotive) as the trailers.standing ovation
Regular
Well that sounds reasonable, and here's why:
Microsoft's franchise uses a pinch of ingenuity, with key ingredients being play mechanics popularized by contemporaries. It is a sound business strategy, provided it stays within the same hardware generation.
Once you have migrated, those old ingredients are less likely to have a savory affect. A newer generation brings different tastes and expectations, while the previous one is saturated with tradition.
Released before "chefs" have cooked up popular (new-gen) dishes, Forza 2 comes to market fermenting with dated play styles and mechanics.
In the previous generation this sort of transformation would have been revolutionary, but in the current one it seems blasé simply because technological capability and consumer expectation is higher.Inquisitive_Idiot
Regular
Forza 2 comes to market fermenting with dated play styles and mechanics.
What utter bullshit!
What the hell do you mean by, "...play styles and mechanics."? Forza Motorsport is a racing simulator, meaning all on track gameplay is meant to be a close approximation to real life. Just because Forza 2 is on the Xbox 360 does not mean the core racing elements are going to change as the laws of physics have not changed in between console generations.
The question as to if Forza 2 is a true sequel is totally unfounded and quickly falls apart after spending a bit of time with both titles. Turn 10 added the Auction House, online tournaments, 60 FPS, Forza TV, rebuilt the livery editor, added FF support and refined the physics. What else do you expect them to do? It would be hard to find anybody who is not impressed with Forza 2 for both its racing and non racing elements.
scooby_dooby
Legend
Exactly, 'casual reference'. Which this wasnt
My point is, overall the game is good but nothing more than an update. Hopefully PGR4 will be more ambitious in its scope.
What's getting boring is this horse shit about F2 not being a sequel, derailing the thread for the last week...to be honest.
Which is why god invented the forum rep systen. Some posts qualify as outright trolling
Spring constant, shock absorber stiffness, and wheel mass all determine how isolated the car body is from road bumps. You can't neglect any of them. "f=ma" can be quite large if a is large or m is large. From the way the wheels move in Forza 2, a looks very large, which is why I'm saying m looks small. Otherwise the car body should be much more upset for that amount of wheel motion.
Raycasting to find the position of the wheels is effectively modeling wheels with zero-mass. A car with zero-mass wheels would go over bumps quite well.
The heavier the wheel, the more momentum it would pick up when it gets kicked up by a bump. This momentum goes into upsetting the car body (since the springs and dampers don't confer perfect isolation).
Average contact force is not the same as average traction, since traction is not linear with force due to the breakpoint between static and sliding friction. The instantaneous forces can be quite important.
I didn't say the car bodies were motionless over bumps. I said they remained too well-composed for the amount of wheel displacement visible. The cars should be bouncing around a lot more when they go into the grass. I've seen cars "skip" when they go into the grass in real life, and myself have had my side curtains deploy when I went into the grass on a track day due to the amount of bouncing.
standing ovation
Regular
Think back for a moment to the first time you saw an iconic game like Halo or Gran Turismo. What was your response? Personally, I was flabbergasted.
My first and last impressions were nearly identical: the subject matter could not have been better presented in a previous generation, nor did its supplanting seem imminent.To a lesser degree, new gen content tends to illicit a similar response. But this is not the case with Forza 2, where there's plenty of room for improvement in the future and close alternatives in the past. Because of this, the sequel (yes, I said "sequel") seems to be more of a stopgap measure than the ideological/technological leap we've come to expect when first-party development and new hardware collide.
There is an amazing setup guide -thanks MarkyX- based on GTR2 that works surprisingly well in Forza 2.
It basically goes through each part of a FIA car and lists the problem plus the solution for each one.
I.e. if the car understeers in a slow curve, the guide will point out that you should probably increase the front Anti-roll bars with the only problem being increased tire wear.
Not all the features are available in Forza 2, such as Steering Lock.
The guide is in PDF format (256 Kb) and it's translated into different languages (english, german, french, spanish, italian....).
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2B8SCF3P
I love making adjustments to the car. I'm not a good artist so I prefer this over the livery editor (which is cool anyways and I'll give it a try since the paintings are like the Skins in other sims).
It basically goes through each part of a FIA car and lists the problem plus the solution for each one.
I.e. if the car understeers in a slow curve, the guide will point out that you should probably increase the front Anti-roll bars with the only problem being increased tire wear.
Not all the features are available in Forza 2, such as Steering Lock.
The guide is in PDF format (256 Kb) and it's translated into different languages (english, german, french, spanish, italian....).
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2B8SCF3P
I love making adjustments to the car. I'm not a good artist so I prefer this over the livery editor (which is cool anyways and I'll give it a try since the paintings are like the Skins in other sims).
Talking about guides... Turn 10 is working on a number of guides to publish on Forzamotorsport.net, which is nice of them.
http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass49.htm
First Turn 10 (brief) Guide -- http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/b...otorsport_blog/archive/2007/06/08/230749.aspx
A couple of years ago, I wrote 2 mini-guides on Forza 1 and while they weren't long, it's not an easy task.
I'd also like to mention (again and again) an amazing guide on the subject that has been written by Hadoq. He mentions Tsukuba as a great track to test adjustments because it's short and flat.
I am bringing it back again because, imo, the guide is that worthy.
http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass49.htm
First Turn 10 (brief) Guide -- http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/b...otorsport_blog/archive/2007/06/08/230749.aspx
A couple of years ago, I wrote 2 mini-guides on Forza 1 and while they weren't long, it's not an easy task.
I'd also like to mention (again and again) an amazing guide on the subject that has been written by Hadoq. He mentions Tsukuba as a great track to test adjustments because it's short and flat.
I am bringing it back again because, imo, the guide is that worthy.
the magic lap time you're looking for on tsukuba is 1 minute, a car that brakes the minute out there is what one can call a "good race car"
for reference, irl, regular sport honda cars (civic type R, integra type R, S2k), stock, run that circuit around 1'05" to 1'07", spoon/mugen versions tend to be between 1'00" and 1'05"
now ingame you should pick up a well balanced FR/MR car, not as good as the ferrari, with a good progression possibility, here are a few guesses:
- Mazda Rx7 (old or new)
- Mazda Rx8
- Honda S2000
- Lotus elise/exige (harder to tune IMO)
- honda NSX
personnaly I'd go with the old Rx7 cause I like the look of it and it's quite abit of a "cornering machine"
anyway, get some of that car, start with upgrading all you can in shocks, weight etc... maybe not slick tires you won't need it, you want a car that's easy to drive wich means not too powerfull. In FM1 only weight and tires would make you go up in category so manage to get chassis upgrade so you're around B2/B1, then upgrade engine so you stick to B1 at MAx (wich means in the new notation, right before you get in A category), leave the turbo alone for now.
drive the car on tsukuba until you get regular laps, preferably in a mode you can see a ghost car of your best lap that's a good reference to start tuning, if you're in front then your setup is better if not, go back (try and save every modification, I mean save your setup under "a" then next time you save it, save it under "b", once you sure b is better than a, then overwrite a, so you can allways go back).
first thing I do then is stiffen the anti roll bars a little, those will make your car more responsive (it's not necessary a good thing but I tend to modify both at the same time, trying to have the same "ratio" between both of them), if they're in the 1st tier, move the cursor up a bit, equally with both, try, if you don't move that too far it should be better, then move them up little by little (I do it usually by 2 to 5 "clics") once you feel it was better before, move them back. then you're ready to move to the next parameter.
the next parameter would be camber/toe/caster (in that order in the settings), that depending on how you car behaves in the corners.
for camber you want negative camber for your car to stick in the turns and not slide too much, you want control here (also keep in mind that 1 parameter will not give you the absolute control), if during a slide your front tires slide more, add negative camber (i.e. move the bar to your left) usually it's -0.5 stock I tend to leave that, same goes for the rear, personnaly I go between -0.7 to -1.2 depending on the car.
for toe it's really simple since it's an FR I'll try to describe it for you.
your chassis is not a piece of frozen wood, it moves and has deformation, try to imagine your rear wheels are stuck to the ground and have a vertical pivot from ground to top (vertical ^^) going through the center of each wheel (only talking bout rear wheels) so they're free to rotate around that pivot
[|]---[|] would be a "front view" the | being the said pivot
now from a top view we would have someting like this, when the car starts moving and the rear tires are stuck to the ground:
now in real live wheels are not stuck, but they have resistance to the movement so this will actually happen on a very small scale. if you want optimal grip, you want your wheels to be in a straight line when accelerating, so you have to put some negative angle here, I mean something really small, like -0.1 to -0.3. on a FR or MR car you don't want to put positive angle here, not at all, unless you want to drift. on FF cars having this one positive will help the rear to slide wich would be cool for cornering.
for front wheels it's abit different, basically having them pointing outwards will make you turn in easier, but will hurt abit of stability in a straight line, the car will follow the track imperfections much more. it's a matter of compromise here. I usually put a 0.2 to 0.3 angle here, 0.2 will do the job.
now caster is a magical thing, it'll increment your negative camber angle while you turn and decrement it when you're in straight, all good you might think, well not exactly.
actually most german autobahn cars have high caster angle, it helps for stability at high speed, but the problem with that, is that it'll make your car feeling abit "heavier". move that to the right a little bit if you want better turn in, but if you do that too much it wouldn't help, 3 to 5 "clics" are usually the way I go on that setup.
for advanced suspension setting, I can do it a little bit but I wouldn't be able to explain it very well, so try a few clics here and there (one parameter at a time, this is where tsukuba comes in handy so you only need 1 minute/1 lap to see how the modification goes) and see what happens, I tend to make rear (damn forgot the word in english, the 2 parameters on the top), "top parameter" a little bit harder (5 to 10 "clics) and then try out with the others, I cannot explain this so I'd rather not do it)
for the LSD, well this too depends very much on the car, try like 10 clics up, make a lap, 10 clics down, make a lap, see what happens.
at this point, you didn't touch ride height, this pretty much depends on the track, but "all the way down" will usually screw most of the work you did before, now it sure looks cool, but it's definately not the way to go, unless your track is a pure billiard table (silverstone maybe).
now the tire pressure, I got that from another post on this forum, and once the setup is all done I still manage to get a few seconds out of tire pressure, it's boring to do but really easy.
run a benchmark test/dyno, write down the lateral g's with stock setting, then move the cursors to get those numbers up, at first I move both cursors at the same time, and once I managed to get the top number, I try and move them independantly to usually increase these numbers a little more.
tuning a car is a matter of compromise, you will never find out the "perfect handling setup", it depends on the track, the car, the upgrades etc... but doing that I could manage to get quite decent hotlaps on several tracks (my favorite was one that's not anymore on FM2, downhill section).
last thing to keep in mind when you tune your car, if you're faster on the track, you might have to brake earlier, so to really see if a modification did some good, you might want to run more than one lap cause it might take a whole lap just to get used to the new modification, once you get used to tuning it'll go faster, but at first you'll have to give it some time.
normally in the tuning section you should have a "test drive" option, go there and you might be able to set your car up bringing up the pause menu and directly see the difference on the track.
for the gear ratio, it's simple, depending on the track you want to
- be at the max torque revving when starting to reaccelerate in 2nd gear out of the track's slowest corner
- be around the max power/max rev in the longest straight in the last gear
I hope it was comprehensive enough, I'm no engineer whatsoever, but I've been through a whole bunch of ressources to learn that for Forza 1, and I just saw the tuning menu was exactly the same, so what did work for me in Forza 1, might as well work in Forza 2.
very last thing if you want to see nice tsukuba very short (5 laps usually) races with street and tuner cars driven by top drivers, look on the internet for "best motoring" Japanese TV shows, those are hosted by keichi tsushiya (A.k.a "drift king" although I'm talking about races, not drift here). So you can have references for lap times corresponding to the exact type of cars you can have in Forza, passing lines, racing lines etc... last I've seen it was mine's skyline vs spoon s2k vs Re amemiya Rx7 etc... all those cars are in the game, so what they can do in the show, you can do it in the game. if you're into cars you will love this show. I'd recommend as well the special "Best Motoring: Drift bible" if you want to learn about how a car behaves at limits and how you can make the car doing special moves, it comes in handy even in grip racing, and it's really comprehensive
Finally got around to trying the career mode. So far really really impressed. I really like the layout and how it tells me what I've unlocked and so on right away along with the "what do you want to do next?" screen that gives you a snapshot of all your options. Someone with good logic was clearly incharge of this aspect!
Well that sounds reasonable, and here's why:
Microsoft's franchise uses a pinch of ingenuity, with key ingredients being play mechanics popularized by contemporaries. It is a sound business strategy, provided it stays within the same hardware generation.
Once you have migrated, those old ingredients are less likely to have a savory affect. A newer generation brings different tastes and expectations, while the previous one is saturated with tradition.
Released before "chefs" have cooked up popular (new-gen) dishes, Forza 2 comes to market fermenting with dated play styles and mechanics.
I agree, playing it at my friend's during the weekend. You could make the same argument against Motorstorm. I dont feel the playing style is particularly dated, more lacking any real sense of advancement. To be fair, its seems the physics have been developed slightly, perhaps the third in the series will be the game that is 'revolutionary'.
Revolutionary?
You expect a racing simulator to be revolutionary???
We haven't had any revolutionary racing simulator changes, since the genre went from 2D to 3D. After that it has continously been small upgrades, evolution.
Was GT2 revolutionary? GT3? Certainly not GT4? Or GTHD?? They were all upgrades on the previous title, all part of a evolution. They get a little better physics, and a little better graphics, in every incarnation, but nothing that dramatically changes the way people look at the genre alltogheter.
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iceberg187
Regular
Sorry, I play with Che online, we drill him for information. Honest story though. Others that play with him from GAF were in the room the same time as I when he said that.
