The best graphics engine on current consoles?

[Lazy8s]

Differing genres get to rely on different focuses. For some like Panzer, it's railed movement; for others, it's heavy use of rigid object models, enclosed spaces, and/or loading between rooms. Though, much of what Panzer's engine does certainly gets to go to visuals.

That screenshot is misleading in that the game doesn't actually have views like that. The textures were created in their specific way to achieve a smooth-looking environment during the action - while flying swiftly passed and above them.

 

[Sonic]

Laz8's, you are both right and wrong. Wrong in that the game was designed as only an on rail shooter but right about certain levels. In an unfinished version of the game there were levels you could freely roam and have multiple perspectives. Consider that version a sort of internal demonstration of what the Xbox was capable of.

 

[Paul]

Uhh where do I start.

Otogi 2 engine(probabaly upgraded version of first game's engine) - The best looking game on Xbox, amazing engine, it handles all types of insane crazy shit.

I don't feel like going on, Otogi 2 engine is the most impressive engine from what I see so far.

 

[Lazy8s]

Sonic:

Wrong in that the game was designed as only an on rail shooter

I was only referring to its finished presentation.

 

[Fox5]

Which developer has the most advanced 3d graphics engine on the current consoles, and what games have used it?

From what I've seen, I would have to say it's Nintendo, with the TWW engine (impressively, according to Miyamoto, essentially a heavily tweaked and beefed up version of the Mario 64 engine).

Here is some of the effects and features I've noticed.

* Lots of very smoothly animated dynamic geometry.
* Lightmaps on all objects (cellshading).
* Volumelights from many sources at once (torches, faries etc.).
* Good use of Environment Map Bump Mapping (treasure chest, metallic. objects, heat destortion etc.).
* Z-shadows, smoothed around the edges with some sort of non-bilinear interpolation.
* Extreme (at least for this gen) amounts of alphablended, highres textured, rotated particles and quads.

All that at a rock solid 60 fp/s!

Am I mistaken? Are there other engines on nowgen consoles that are more capable?

Yeah, TWW engine is a heavily tweaked and beefed up mario 64 engine...just like doom 3 is for quake.
I know Ocarina of Time was supposed to be(they may have switched halfway through development though, since it got a major overhall) but I never heard anything about wind waker. I also think wind waker was only 30 fps.

Anyhow, I think Factor 5's engine is pretty impressive, so is HAL's super smash bros engine, and so is rare's starfox adventures...I'll refrain from the other consoles though(since I don't own them) and from multiplatform games.
Rogue engine- tons of special effects and stuff going on, and usually fast framerate
Super Smash- still one of the best looking gamecube games, shows off many of the system's features, has cool shadows effected by lighting, bump mapping, cell shading, and a very high framerate.
Starfox- Shows off features that if you looked at any other games you wouldn't know they existed.

I'm almost certain it's 60fps. Try turning the camera around at full speed and observe the gap between frames, then do the same in Halo or SMS and see the difference

Those games aren't constant 30 fps games.

 

[Tagrineth]

True Crime's engine did a great job with seamless loading of one bloody huge city (far beyond even Grand Theft Auto)...

I don't think MGS2 even deserves to be in the running... the world geometry is PS1-level at best. The areas don't look any better than MGS1's at all. They don't have to, but it does cut back on the whole "Technical" aspect a lot.

My vote goes to Rebel Strike.

 

[PC-Engine]

RS3 and RE4...

 

[Bohdy]

Well actually, WW runs at 30fps.

I'm almost certain it's 60fps. Try turning the camera around at full speed and observe the gap between frames, then do the same in Halo or SMS and see the difference.
Even though ZWW has a fast moving camera, it's still much smoother looking.

Yes its true that it does look much smoother than other 30fps games, but I'm pretty sure that it has been confirmed to be 30fps by various sources. I think that they just did a really good job on it.

* Good use of Environment Map Bump Mapping (treasure chest, metallic. objects, heat destortion etc.).

Isn't the heat effect being done by a framebuffer distorsion?

Also, I don't think I ever saw any environment bump-mapping in it

If the hardware is capable of EMBM, then using that must be faster for effects like heat distortion and other kinds of refraction, than using high-density alphablended geometry.
Other examples of EMBM that I can remember of the top of my head, is various shiny objects, such as Nightmare locks and also the rippling spheres around some enemies in the Wind Temple (I'm replaying it right now ).

I don't believe that EMBM is generally used for refraction whether the hardware can support it or not. Most common refraction is done through framebuffer distortion as Vysez said, or in the Cube's case it would be done through the Flipper's ability of Indirect Texturing (altering texture co-ordinates arbitrarily). I haven't ever heard of alpha-blended geometry used for refraction

Also:

The X factor in MGS2 was the cinematic presentation and attention to detail, which are both "content", not purely engine-related.

I would have to agree with that; the MGS2 engine was very capable but it never made me think "Wow, I'm blown away by the figures this must be pushing!", what I did think though was "Those poor, poor Konami programmers! I weep for their souls slaving away at every gorgeous detail with a cruel Kojima whipping them the whole time and the artists laughing maniacly at the thought of how hard to implement their latest effects will be".

Basically, there is nothing that special about the engine itself, except for all of the custom effects that it allows. All those custom effects are what made the game look so pretty.

 

[marconelly!]

Tagrineth has this weird kink against anything present in MGS2 engine, which to me is borderline trolling, but I'm not even trying to argue that anymore. After all, by her own admittance:

Bias meters:
Sony[-----|----X]Nintendo

So what can you do... That's like me explaining why I never like Mario games and most other Nintendo owned properties.

Basically, there is nothing that special about the engine itself, except for all of the custom effects that it allows. All those custom effects are what made the game look so pretty.

IMO, those effects are exactly what makes it so special. Since when the best engine must be the one that outputs the biggest number of raw specs? Why wouldn't the best engine be the one that is tuned to hell and back to feature all kinds of unusual effects, and basically offers something fres and original? Shouldn't that amazing effort be recognized even more than just some carefully hand optimized assembly for a boring clipping and drawing routine? That is not to say that those effects in MGS2 engine are not crazy optimized for performance as well for the looks. One look at ZOE2 will tell you just how far ahead that game is compared to just about anything on PS2, and quite possible above anything else on any platform, when it comes to particle rendering. ZOE2 is based on tweaked MGS2 graphics engine.

Then again, after all is said and done, I will concur that Jak 3 engine will be the best general engine PS2 has ever seen. On top of all crazy stuff they've already made for Jak 2, the new game will feature rigid body physics (for dune buggy races and such) as well as cloth physics. Plus the improved world streaming - which already kicks the crap out of any GTA-like game made so far.

 

[ChryZ]

GC: RS3 ... the engine does that much stuff at the same time. IMHO it sure got it's moments, where scenes come close to low profile CGI.

 

[London Geezer]

Whoa Tag, don't you think that's a bit too much??

MGS2 might not be the best engine ever, but it surely does not push as little geometry as a PS1 game, or any of the things you said...

And i must say, when it came out, it WAS the best engine available.

I still stand by my opinion that most of MGS2's beauty comes from its content and production choices.

Marconcelly, "having the best engine" actually DOES mean "the engine that pushes the most numbers"... Which is useless to me, but that's what the thread is about.

GT3 was the best looking racer for a couple of years after coming out. By far. Does that mean its engine was superior to other games that didn't look as good?

Also, one can have the best engine ever and not have the artistic capabilities to make the game look any bettwer than one running on a less powerful engine, but using awesome content creation, like the FF games.

 

[_phil_]

Marconcelly, "having the best engine" actually DOES mean "the engine that pushes the most numbers"...

The best engine is the one that fits best the purposes of the game it's made for,providing the best experience .
Iit certainly goes beyond what you SEE.
In this respect ,MGS22 and GT3 's engines
are certainly great.

I also see from this thread that most people are still mistaking art,asset and design with pure technical achievement.
Concerning games ,one doesn't go without the other in an overal design.
Also , 60 fps is an uncompromising point, IMO.

 

[London Geezer]

Marconcelly, "having the best engine" actually DOES mean "the engine that pushes the most numbers"...

The best engine is the one that fits best the purposes of the game it's made for,providing the best experience .
Iit certainly goes beyond what you SEE.
In this respect ,MGS22 and GT3 's engines
are certainly great.

I also see from this thread that most people are still mistaking art,asset and design with pure technical achievement.
Concerning games ,one doesn't go without the other in an overal design.
Also , 60 fps is an uncompromising point, IMO.

*The best engine is the one that fits best the purposes of the game it's made for,providing the best experience .*

And potentially, the engine that pushes the most figures in the aspects that interest you (eg: particles if u need loads of particles, textures if u need more textures etc...), is the most suited to the game you're trying to develop.
I say "potentially" because 3DO could have Jak2's engine in their hands, but still come out with cringe-worthy Army Men games that look and play like utter crap, simply because THEY CAN'T MAKE GAMES.

 

[Squeak]

Well actually, WW runs at 30fps.

I'm almost certain it's 60fps. Try turning the camera around at full speed and observe the gap between frames, then do the same in Halo or SMS and see the difference.
Even though ZWW has a fast moving camera, it's still much smoother looking.

Yes its true that it does look much smoother than other 30fps games, but I'm pretty sure that it has been confirmed to be 30fps by various sources. I think that they just did a really good job on it.

How can you "do a really good job on it"? Either it runs at 60fps, or it doesn't. You can use motion blur like in Pikmin, but that would be noticable if you looked for it. Can you post links to some of the sources the says that it's 30fps?

I don't believe that EMBM is generally used for refraction whether the hardware can support it or not. Most common refraction is done through framebuffer distortion as Vysez said,

Maybe not on xbox or PS2, but from what I heard, on GC the implentation of EMBM is pretty fast.
Also, remember GC doesn't have the bandwidth of PS2, for render to texture.

or in the Cube's case it would be done through the Flipper's ability of Indirect Texturing (altering texture co-ordinates arbitrarily).

Indirect texturing, isn't that almost the same technique as EMBM? I mean completely arbitrary texture displacement would just result in noice, it has to be done according to a reference texture.

I haven't ever heard of alpha-blended geometry used for refraction

Well okay, maybe not alpha-blended in all cases, but for heat distortion I would imagine it could look better to have some of the original background visible through the haze.

 

[Fafalada]

I don't believe that EMBM is generally used for refraction whether the hardware can support it or not. Most common refraction is done through framebuffer distortion as Vysez said, or in the Cube's case it would be done through the Flipper's ability of Indirect Texturing

I like to call it dependant texture reads myself.
Anyway, in case of Flipper, dependant texture read circuit consists of a texture fetch with a matrix transform(2*DOT3), which basically IS a hardwired EMBM.
As opposed to say, XBox where Dot product and Dep.read are separate instructions.

Maybe not on xbox or PS2

It would be quite an achievement to do it on PS2 seeing that GS has no dependant texture reads.

 

[Bohdy]

How can you "do a really good job on it"? Either it runs at 60fps, or it doesn't. You can use motion blur like in Pikmin, but that would be noticable if you looked for it. Can you post links to some of the sources the says that it's 30fps?

I dunno about the specific methods of making a 30fps game smoother but I would guess that its some sort of frame/camera interpolation or something. PGR2 (another 30fps game) seems to run very smoothly also.

About sources for Wind Waker running at 30fps: that information can be found in most reviews for the game that I have seen, plus it is (barely) noticeable from the game itself. I don't really think it is worth debating at any rate as it seems to be a given. If anyone can disprove it somehow that would be interesting though!

Indirect texturing, isn't that almost the same technique as EMBM? I mean completely arbitrary texture displacement would just result in noice, it has to be done according to a reference texture.

A unique and very interesting feature of the Nintendo Gamecube is the indirect texture unit. It is capable of modifying/generating texture coordinates per pixel and therefore allows for a wide variation of effects. Rippled decals, heat effects and shockwaves are common uses. When it is used together with grabbing the frame buffer, the results are impressive.

That is all I know about it really, but it does seem to be the easiest method for refraction on the Cube.

 

[Phil]

"Best" Engine is quite a relative term in itself - though to me, the most capable engine is one that manages to get the most of the hardware and still serves its purpose well. That again makes it quite difficult to make a good guess, as there are so many ways to tap into a platform - afterall, it's all up to the developer to choose on what performance characteristics they wish to emphasize on....

Having said that, my vote would definately go to MGS2 to some extend, simply because even today, I find it to be one of the best loking "package". Just about everything from physics to particles to animation was simply breathtaking. Seeing what was done using a similar engine for ZOE2 is even more amazing - probably the most particles and objects I've seen running this generation all at once and still being able to look so gorgeous... at 60fps!

Still, apart from the tearing issue that truly disturbed me in Jak II, I'd say that Naughty Dog has probably done one of the most capable engines on PS2. I'm quite looking forward to see what upgrades they've done with there 3rd implementation in Jak III and hope that they were able to resolve the framerate issue. If they get it done, it will get my personal vote.

A nominee would definately be Criterion with Renderware and there efforts in Burnout 2 and upcoming Burnout 3.

BTW: London-Boy: ZOE2 runs at 60fps and if you have the PAL version, very rarely with slowdowns, even during intense battles.

 

[London Geezer]

BTW: London-Boy: ZOE2 runs at 60fps and if you have the PAL version, very rarely with slowdowns, even during intense battles.

If you say so... I'm not complaining, but the framerate was all but stable, even though it only got really noticeable in very very very few occasions.

 

[Tagrineth]

Tagrineth has this weird kink against anything present in MGS2 engine, which to me is borderline trolling, but I'm not even trying to argue that anymore. After all, by her own admittance:

Bias meters:
Sony[-----|----X]Nintendo

So what can you do... That's like me explaining why I never like Mario games and most other Nintendo owned properties.

Since when do I have a kink against anything in MGS2's engine?

I think the game looks fantastic, and many times in the game I stopped to admire something small in the graphics (like the water splashing off the roof on the Tanker, at the very beginning).

It has THE best implementation of motion blur I've ever seen.

The character models are great, and the animations were very realistic and impressive.

And my bias meters are mostly designed for humour. Jeeze...

Whoa Tag, don't you think that's a bit too much??

MGS2 might not be the best engine ever, but it surely does not push as little geometry as a PS1 game, or any of the things you said...

And i must say, when it came out, it WAS the best engine available.

I still stand by my opinion that most of MGS2's beauty comes from its content and production choices.

I'm not saying the game as a whole pushes as little as a PS1 game... just most of the environments. Nearly every object in general looks no better than MGS1's. Characters look immeasurably better, PS2 uses motion blur, PS2 uses full reflections, has larger textures, and has some areas that are a good deal larger than MGS1's... but the overall world detail isn't much higher.

Basically it seems like the world detail was kept low to offset the high-poly character models.

EDIT: And why is it that almost any time someone goes against the prevailing opinion by offering a different perspective, it's suddenly 'trolling'?

 

[Phil]

If you say so... I'm not complaining, but the framerate was all but stable, even though it only got really noticeable in very very very few occasions.

For some reason, I used to have a lot of slowdows, especially in MGS2 and ZOE2 for a while until I noticed that my PS2 was suffering of having a lot of dust on the inside. Afer getting it cleaned, I was quite amazed at the improvement... anyway, I am almost through on extreme mode which has a insane amount of more enemies on screen compared to the other difficulties and have yet to experience 'major' slowdown - I am aware that the game doesn't slow down as noticable as other games, but when it does, it is like the game is on slowmotion or along those lines. The only instances in which I did notice major slowdown was at best during certain boss stages that used insane amounts of particles during battle along with my own rockets and quick movement or during intense battles with hundreds of small enemies on extreme mode with those yellow beams everywhere - but even then at times, it was fairly dependend on if I fight with the sword or add to the particle fiesta with some of my own middle-range weapons. Having that said, I'd say I am pretty prone to slowdowns or simply low framerates in games (remember my argument with Quincy on PG2 and 30fps?)... so who knows... maybe I was just lucky or checking your PS2 for dust or getting the lense cleaned might do something... :?

In anycase, I think when a game features slowdown as bad as in the Getaway where it is very noticable almost constantly how the framerate flactuates, it clearly does not classify as a 60 fps title - compare it to ZOE2's and it's basically non-existant.