How close can current gen consoles get to the cryengine2 tech demos?

I've the special making of like mgs2 dvd. There you can easily see the streets and buildings from the ending real-time cutscene. The quality is similar to what I saw on the videos from these cry engine demos. It seems optimized art assets can take you there on ps2 hardware.

The art cannot even take it a close by lightyears (unless you meant the real-life video part encoding? oO ). Art alone cannot give you the things take really makes it life like in movement. I've seen the ending and I fail to see how it even looks more realistic than Ghost Recon 2 city scene for the first xbox. And GR2 certainly is on another level technically and then GRAW for xbox360 runs rigns around GR2 and Bravia level demo runs rings around GRAW. But that is for another thread. :smile:

As for the physics, they're pretty tame. The teapots are actually working on a sphere-model, bouncing like balls rather than teapots, which is the most efficient physics entity possible.

True it is easier to process but I still think they went for sphere model physics becouse otherwise those teapots would not bounce in ~lines. Rather they would bounce to all directions rapidly decreasing the amount of teapots in any location spot. Now if they had bouncing soft balls with fluid dynaimcs physics and collision physics then it would be really nice (but probably a massive perf.killer)!
 
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True it is easier to process but I still think they went for sphere model physics becouse otherwise those teapots would not bounce in ~lines.
Sure. Even then though, with realistic modelling, it's not taxing. You could approximate the collision geometry with a few standard shapes - sphere for body, cylinder for spout and handle, and it wouldn't be very taxing. The real challenge for rigid-body physics is multiple pileups. When everything's spaced out with only a few collisions, it's just a matter of spacial partitioning and proximity tests.

Now if they had bouncing soft balls with fluid dynaimcs physics and collision physics then it would be really nice (but probably a massive perf.killer)!
Ah, well...there's the rub, and it raises the real question here. Can the consoles do everything CryEngine2's tech-demos have shown? Absolutely. Can it do them at an acceptable framerate? That's the real question. And it's a question that doesn't apply in the PC space because you can upgrade the hardware. These engines are being measured by platform (console vs. PC) yet one platform has no standard that the engine is being limited to. From a technical POV, it'd be far more interesting IMO to argue what the CryTech engine can achieve on a specified bit of hardware at 30 fps and how that compares to what console game engines are achieving at 30 fps.
 
You could very easily do that

You see Shifty Geezer? That's a clear proof you're wrong. ;) Please do it Ostepop. Remember that this $5k car is a stock car that you cannot upgrade (think: console). I'm looking forward to seeing you outdoing Porsche. :)
 
You see Shifty Geezer? That's a clear proof you're wrong. ;) Please do it Ostepop. Remember that this $5k car is a stock car that you cannot upgrade (think: console). I'm looking forward to seeing you outdoing Porsche. :)

In my defence, in norway, you cannot buy a new car for less than $30-40k so i was more thinking in line of a used car thats faster than a new one.

Its not like i disagree with shifty's post thought. I just like to talk about cars :p
 
And you could argue a $5000 beating a $40000 one because there's different things they could be competing with. The $40000 motor is hardly going to win prizes for economy by comparison ;)
 
I dunno, my old stock BMW I bought for 5000$ did 140mph fairly easy and 0-60 in about 5.8-6 seconds and I beat quite a lot of 40,000$ brand new SUVs and Vans on the road :) (among a lot of brand new mustangs and other high performance cars). And, even though their cars were technically able to out-pace mine, I beat a lot of other brand new BMWs and Benzes as well (analogy being the developer is the driver, the car is the platform)

Plus, I haven't seen too many brand new porsches for $40,000...
 
I dunno, my old stock BMW I bought for 5000$ did 140mph fairly easy and 0-60 in about 5.8-6 seconds and I beat quite a lot of 40,000$ brand new SUVs and Vans on the road :) (among a lot of brand new mustangs and other high performance cars). And, even though their cars were technically able to out-pace mine, I beat a lot of other brand new BMWs and Benzes as well (analogy being the developer is the driver, the car is the platform)

Plus, I haven't seen too many brand new porsches for $40,000...

Yeah but you didn't bought it new, not 5000$. Heck over here you dont even get a euro mini car for that price!

Nah more like a moderate BMW versus a Humvee, one being faster in some situations*, the other faster in other situations* and then the Humvee can transport** a helluva lot more... or pull. :LOL:

*flat terrain rough terrain (strengths vs weakness)
**Processing things at the same time

^^
 
Has anyone documented or analyzed the difference that 3Dc might have made in Crysis versus the fallback DXT5 or nVidia's lossless normal map compression (2-byte/texel, computing the Z-component)?
 
Let me clarify something for myself here...

When talking about the RAM requirements for Crysis, and how the consoles can't keep up, what exactly are we talking about? Like here:

The reality of Crytek is that it can demand Gigs of RAM for assets, and you're not going to match that texture fidelity on consoles. A look at this road surface http://i30.tinypic.com/m92hdh.png shows quality the consoles just can't fit! A similar and fantastically looking engine may be possible but the quality of images would have to come from elsewhere to awesome texture resolutions on everything. Perhaps procedural synthesis could take some textures and apply some cracks and generate a road? I think we've seen so little of procedural synthesis though that devs must be more concerned leveraging processing elsewhere.

It sounds like the RAM requirements are limiting the textures more than anything else. Which will, of course, affect the amount of detail and so on in the final displayed image.

Is that the main restriction, the fidelity and resolution of the textures? When I think about what CryENGINE2 does, I think more along the lines of it's other features.. the shader effects, motion blur, God rays, physics, lighting, shadowing, destructible trees, etc. I mean, in my thinking, I'd imagine pretty much any game engine could load and render huge detailed textures given enough memory, but top-notch game engines like CryENGINE2 are doing a hell of a lot more than just high-res textures.

What about all those other things that CryENGINE2 does? Let's say you're generating a scene that didn't require big textures... then would the consoles be able to do everything that the engine requires, at an acceptable framerate and resolution?

I was watching a video yesterday over on Gametrailers, where Ubisoft was demonstrating various aspects of their new Dunia engine. They had a beat-up car with all sorts of layered textures and shaders, normal maps and the like. Like what Shifty said above, they used different levels of procedural blending to create a damn good looking surface with less than 2MB worth of actual textures. Would something like this be a big benefit to bringing over an extensive engine like CryENGINE2 to consoles? Would the trade-off in the processor usage be acceptable to create good-looking results? Would that be something the multi-core processors would be well-suited for?
 
But you see texture detail is not the main problem. You see in Crysis you have a base texture(s) and then detail texture layers on top created by the shaders. On high it is 2 layers on the base texture and 3 layers on v.high (may be 2 for v.high dont remebmer it right now). This is one of the most taxing things in Crysis and can cut the framerate in half easily and even to a third.
Also why the game dont really use lot's of VRAM for what it renders. Im sure they went this way becouse otherwise they would easily break the 1GB VRAM "barrier".

On high settings the VRAM usage is quite low, 1280*1024 and no AA it is around 350MB VRAM.

Now these variabels controls the detail of the textures done by shaders (0-3).

q_ShaderGeneral <- Huge perfomance hit
q_ShaderGlass
q_ShaderIce
q_ShaderMetal
q_ShaderTerrain <- Moderate perfomance hit
q_ShaderVegetation <- Moderate perfomance hit
 
On high settings the VRAM usage is quite low, 1280*1024 and no AA it is around 350MB VRAM.

For current consoles, that's a lot just for VRAM :!:

Mat Noguchi said:
The total size of The Storm [level] is about 1.2 GB, and after factoring in the Xbox system reserve and game overhead, we have about 335 MB of memory available for content. This is a lower bound on memory, based on our testing builds. The full release build has about 50 MB more, but we use this as our minimum guaranteed memory size so that we can test all our levels.

That budget includes textures, geometry, sounds, and animation. They take into consideration that the HDD won't always be present btw.
 
The art cannot even take it a close by lightyears (unless you meant the real-life video part encoding? oO ). Art alone cannot give you the things take really makes it life like in movement. I've seen the ending and I fail to see how it even looks more realistic than Ghost Recon 2 city scene for the first xbox. And GR2 certainly is on another level technically and then GRAW for xbox360 runs rigns around GR2 and Bravia level demo runs rings around GRAW. But that is for another thread. :smile:


The ps2 metal gear solid 2 new york street looks very very good, I'd have to see the first ghost recon, how it handled distant textures*(cause several titles I played on the original xbox had horrible blurathon a few meters ahead, horrible texture filtering.). The ps2 city while textures might shimmer at some angle, the excellent camera placement diminished or eliminated shimmering entirely in some segments, leading to crisp textures into the distance.

I've seen GRAW on 360 the way it's designed gives away the computer graphics nature of it.


The reality of Crytek is that it can demand Gigs of RAM for assets, and you're not going to match that texture fidelity on consoles. A look at this road surface http://i30.tinypic.com/m92hdh.png shows quality the consoles just can't fit! A similar and fantastically looking engine may be possible but the quality of images would have to come from elsewhere to awesome texture resolutions on everything. Perhaps procedural synthesis could take some textures and apply some cracks and generate a road? I think we've seen so little of procedural synthesis though that devs must be more concerned leveraging processing elsewhere. It's interesting from the POV of a challenge, but still the most pointless of conversations! "Can a $300 console beat a $2000 PC in IQ?" Let's go visit car forums and
try talking about $5000 cars outdoing $40000 cars...

Maybe there's something wrong with several of my monitors, or maybe you're just joking here, cause that looks like a blurry ps2 texture. I saw sharper textures in Gears of War, heck some were so sharp that it was possibly close to the 720p display limits, extremely tiny details side by side one or two pixels apart.

Unreal Tournament 3 for ps3, has several extremely good textures, of course just like gears there are exceptions here and there, and some very very large open levels. I was actually surprised, given most of my previous experience with Unreal Engine 3 games.


If people were serious about conversing about console performance, they'd take specific points of CryEngine and discuss possibilities, rather than just splashing up screenshots with no more argument than 'can't do it, can do it.'

As for the physics, they're pretty tame. The teapots are actually working on a sphere-model, bouncing like balls rather than teapots, which is the most efficient physics entity possible.

People have many times mistaken gt4 cars for real life, while several games with far more powerful hardware have failed to fool the same people even once, that's the power of art.

There are several ps2 games with practically horizon reaching draw distances and many objects on screen, and that was on 32MB main ram.

Again reminding people of the power of art, many have been disappointed with the ps3 and 360 silent hill sequel, comparing it to screens of silent hill 3 a ps2 title. The ps2 title, looked better in the eyes of many, and in my eyes. In the end what's put on screen is what matters, if tricks and mirrors get you similar or even better results(sometimes fooling people into thinking something is real life or CG), than there's no arguing with it.
 
The ps2 metal gear solid 2 new york street looks very very good, I'd have to see the first ghost recon, how it handled distant textures*(cause several titles I played on the original xbox had horrible blurathon a few meters ahead, horrible texture filtering.). The ps2 city while textures might shimmer at some angle, the excellent camera placement diminished or eliminated shimmering entirely in some segments, leading to crisp textures into the distance.

That is interesting becouse I found it to be the reverse. If it was an area that the xbox did outshine the competition then it was in how much detail it could handle in games with large draw distance and with good amount of effects. About the blurry distance textures, it might just be that high-res upclose textures make more contrast against low-res textures then the opposite of many PS2 games (blurry all the way to the horisont). :)

I've seen GRAW on 360 the way it's designed gives away the computer graphics nature of it.

Didn't say it was fully realistic looking but to say the MGS2 ending is, is crazyness IMO. The art (MGS2 ending) can't hold it above the water when the rest looks "crappy" by todays standard.

Maybe there's something wrong with several of my monitors, or maybe you're just joking here, cause that looks like a blurry ps2 texture. I saw sharper textures in Gears of War, heck some were so sharp that it was possibly close to the 720p display limits, extremely tiny details side by side one or two pixels apart.

Watch the better quality videos to see the detail on the texture.

People have many times mistaken gt4 cars for real life, while several games with far more powerful hardware have failed to fool the same people even once, that's the power of art.

maybe in small ss or blurry images. On the contrary GT5 looks very realistic in it's replay scenes especially thanks to the DoF and motionblur. The ingame not so.

There are several ps2 games with practically horizon reaching draw distances and many objects on screen, and that was on 32MB main ram.

But the graphics suffered greatly. Let's say I don't find a desert landscape with 10 2000k poly characters and a 2D background more impressive than a detailed landscape with 2 20K characters and 2KM draw distance so to say!

Neverthless the Bravia level outshines everything shown and to compare the MGS2 ending to it is a lost case. Better compare a game that does atleast half of the rendering features that the CryEngine has enabled in the bravia level (or Crysis v.high). And let me remind you that the Bravia demo is a playable level, not a real-time cut-scene with fixed angles and limited rendering! :)
 
Neverthless the Bravia level outshines everything shown and to compare the MGS2 ending to it is a lost case. Better compare a game that does atleast half of the rendering features that the CryEngine has enabled in the bravia level (or Crysis v.high). And let me remind you that the Bravia demo is a playable level, not a real-time cut-scene with fixed angles and limited rendering! :)

You can move around and explore with the camera while setting the speed of the cutscene, if I recall correctly, on the mgs2 special making of like dvd.

As for videos, where can I find even higher detail videos than the ones here? It won't change the fact that there are console games with some ridiculously sharp textures, though.
 
As for videos, where can I find even higher detail videos than the ones here? It won't change the fact that there are console games with some ridiculously sharp textures, though.

Only know of the gametrailers one but that one is mediocre yet better than youtube or SD version. And of course console games have high-res textures but remember the questions, how many of them, what type (normal mapped, parallax, POM, non mapped etc). You find them in console games but in well placed spots (well depends on the devs) but not many of them. Granted Crysis also has some low-res textures but PC games tend to have higher res textures and more of them. This naturally becouse of the VRAM and RAM amount in PC's and more rendering power for more POM's parallaxed textures or such!
 
TThere are several ps2 games with practically horizon reaching draw distances and many objects on screen, and that was on 32MB main ram.

I bring up a similar argument on various game boards, whenever some idiot starts comparing specs between PCs and consoles, and babbling on about how such-and-such a console could never play such-and-such a game. I usually ask them to show me a computer with a 300MHz CPU, 32MB RAM, and 4MB video RAM that can push any of the better-looking games from the PS2.

Around here, people know the differences in architecture and how things run on a console versus how they run on a PC (I hope).

But that's why I tend to believe that we haven't seen these consoles really pushed to their limits yet. PCs running the same game tend to require significantly higher specs than the console has, especially in RAM. I think the same thing will hold true with CryENGINE2 to a degree, we'll just have to wait and see how it comes out.


EDIT: I just realized something, it was brought up in a "Crysis on consoles" discussion on another forum.

The Xbox360's default configuration has no hard drive. With very few exceptions, all developers are required to code their games to run without it. How big a difference will that make? Will they make the engine run without it (can they make the engine run without it?), or will it be limited in some way?

The thread in question mentioned a rumor that Crytek was porting over Crysis, but that they had cancelled the 360 version in favor of the PS3 version. The hard drive was later brought up as a possible explanation, since all PS3s have one. I'm not holding my breath in any event.
 
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But that's why I tend to believe that we haven't seen these consoles really pushed to their limits yet. PCs running the same game tend to require significantly higher specs than the console has, especially in RAM. I think the same thing will hold true with CryENGINE2 to a degree, we'll just have to wait and see how it comes out.

Im sure they will improve and it's true that crossplatform games needs more RAM on PC. Thought the rest of the system requirements does not need to be significant better to run the game. For example my sec system with a weak dual-core a a 7900GT has managed to run all crossplatform games at same res but with noticably better IQ and framerate than the console versions. The question would be what is classed as "significantly higher specs than the console ".

I think many get the impression that people complain a bit about x multiplatform game for PC runs a bit choppy/bad. But they fail to realise that many PC gamers play on far higher resolutions than 720p, and higher resolution don't come free. And lot's of them won't accept 720p as a playable resolution. :smile:

The thread in question mentioned a rumor that Crytek was porting over Crysis, but that they had cancelled the 360 version in favor of the PS3 version. The hard drive was later brought up as a possible explanation, since all PS3s have one. I'm not holding my breath in any event.

That rumour was false, not a single mention of a Crysis port at all. But they are making another game for the PS3 and if I remember it correctly it would not be a shooter (hybrid?). Im sure the HDD will give the PS3 an advantage as it did forthe xbox.
 
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