That was a good thing that you asked.
I search and find something that was about external HDD, I guess that back in time I read too fast (@ work).
So forget about it, anyway I would find the idea good.
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The all new Carmack-inspired disk and HDD installation discussion thread* (spin-off)
- Thread starter Arwin
- Start date
I search and find something that was about external HDD, I guess that back in time I read too fast (@ work).
So forget about it, anyway I would find the idea good.
jandlecack
Banned
Edit: Whoops, read that wrong. What you wanted to know is whether a full HDD install can speed up game load times compared to disc-based or hybrid (disc loading + HDD streaming, as in Uncharted). Well, I don't have a game that is both available to run from HDD and disc, but Siren might be the first one when it hits disc-based. I have GT5
rologue on disc but it still installs around 7GB to HDD, so that won't work.Regarding SSD vs HDD
From a regular rotating HDD? Heck yes. It's not much differently used in the PS3 from the PC. IIRC the PS3 uses ext3, or it might be a modified variation, but it's definitely got similarity with Linux filesystems. In any case, read/write times to a SSD will be drastically decreased, that's for sure.
On the other hand, a 7200RPM HDD compared to a 5400RPM isn't much of an upgrade. I read a few reports and you can expect an average 6 to 8 percent increase in performance, which can boil down to 1-2 seconds advantage.
For regular load times in games I wouldn't expect much of a difference with a SSD, since the Blu-Ray comes into play there, but you could definitely speed up XMB access including installs, deletions and so on.
Not sure why there is so much confusion here. It's not so much about load times, or simultaneous optical and hd access, or bandwidth in general. Those are corner cases. The real issue is that these consoles have a limited amount of memory to store the various assets which are being processed. So as you approach locations or items within a scene, more detailed textures, models, dialog, decals, etc. are brought into memory for the things near the player. These "high resolution" assets are swapped in and out of physical memory relative to where the player goes or looks within the environment.
While the hard disk only represents an approximately two fold increase in bandwidth, its avg access times are easily ten times better. That's the killer. Jumping around the disk to read in all the various bits of data you need at any given time. So, for example, while you may only be able to maintain "high resolution" assets in memory for a 30-40 foot radius around the player, the cache partition can hold everything for that area or zone. There is no need to install the entire game. A player isn't generally going to magically warp from the beginning to the end of a game without any transition. The cache data can be populated transparently during play, or a developer can choose more fine grain control. Think of it like the swap space on your PC allowing data to move in and out of physical memory as needed.
It's a strange omission on Sony's part for not including some hard disk cache space for games to use. Particularly since they all include a hard disk, and the original Xbox had already very successfully set this precedent. Had they included a cache partition, I doubt you would see any installs at all on the PS3. The only reason you do now, is it's the only option available to developers who can't cope with the latency of the optical media. XBox 360 allowing installs now, has nothing to do with performance, but rather because of DVD space limitations dictating a greater number of multi-disk titles moving forward, and it provides them a mechanism to avoid disk swapping.
Huh ? Insomniac is known to implement its own HDD cache for R&C and R2 (including background loading from Blu-ray to HDD). There certainly is an option to roll your own cache as opposed to perm or optional HDD install.
Huh ? If you can't install the whole game to the hardrive (ie disc caching) then at some point you will have to acess the disc. When you acess the disc you will end up having slow downs.
As for multiple games , yes thats how it works . The game will cache new data to the drive while playing the game. The first load time will be longer but it will continue caching to the disc and each load afterwards will be faster. Core owners do have longer load times.
A bit form Insomniac about the usage of HDD and BlueRay when it comes to streaming textures...
http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/articles/1107/files/texture_streaming.pdf
http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/articles/1107/files/texture_streaming.pdf
Insomniac's solution is still game specific and they had to write their own libraries to do it. It's a fact, there is no common area to perform this function and much easier from a developer standpoint to just install the data to disk and be done. All the theories here for installs are interesting, but its simply the path of least resistance. "Occam's razor"
I think Naughty Dog's streaming engine is integrated into Edge by now though it was not ready when recently released games were designed.
grandmaster
Veteran
The 9.5mm Hitachi 500GB laptop drive I have in my notebook is 'only' 5400rpm but it annihilates pretty much any other drive short of an SSD. The issue here isn't the speed of the disk's rotation, but the density of the data on the platter.
user542745831 said:
You can't use the PS3 without an HDD, so the notion of being able to buy a unit and plug-in your own HDD isn't viable. I also think that the concept of having a standard drive within the unit isn't particularly customer friendly, even though it's far easier on the pocket than Microsoft's approach. With the Xbox 360, it's obvious where the drive is and easy to replace, or take out. You don't get the feeling that you'll void the warranty by taking it out (even though you don't void anything by removing the PS3 HDD).
With PS3 and the fact that it's enclosed in the unit, there's a psychological hurdle there that the average console owner isn't going to easily get over.
Sure, but it's wrong to say mandatory install is the only option. Insomniac's solution has been applied it to R&C, R2 and probably all their future games. It is not just a theory. The company releases a game every year, so the lack of a general purpose HDD cache, is hardly a show stopper.
For people who prefer the easy way out for whatever reasons...
Even if Sony provides a HDD cache, they may still go the install route because it is overall easier to design, implement & optimize a static system that is game specific.
I guess the best foot forward for Sony is to open source a version of Insomniac's streaming framework, so that other developers can check it out for real (like SPUR, and other libraries). It would be interesting to see how they stream assets from the persistent stores to game specific memory areas, and from Blu-ray to the HDD cache.
Since OS footprint has reduced, and developers have grown more proficient at PS3 programming, we should see better use of technology over time.
Proof? The only thing I found via google is the cache slowing loading times in Oblivion, tons of hits dealing with clearing the cache. Anyone can make a claim, I just wanted some numbers or dev comments on it, not speculation from game players.
eastmen, you were kind enough to get numbers on the power draw of your new unit. How about timing some level load times with the three scenarios I listed (clear cache, 2nd play, no HD)?
I only have the 60 gig now. I still have acess to a launch unit at my friends house. However I can do the cache stuff though. I have currently mass effect , gears , cod2 , soul caliber 4 and cod4 at my apartment (my sisters have some of my other games) The only thing I dn't have is a stop watch. Perhaps i can find a program online or perhaps an app for my mogul.
Chris123234
Regular
Mogul has a stop watch utility already i think. I'd check one i have but its dead right now.
You can also pull the HD out if you want to emulate a core. You can be the Quaz of load times!
I'd help you out, but with three kids my hands are full on my end, I can hardly play a game
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