TES V: Skyrim

[Frank]

I haven't found any (obviously) scaled baddies; I found a vampire cave early on that kept kicking my ass, and now I can go plowing through it with ease.

Locations and the enemies within do set their level at the moment you first encounter them. Which is cool, as it allows for pwning them after you level up a bit.

But there is definitely level scaling going on; it was really apparent when I levelled up my companion (Lydia).

She started dying within seconds after a while, and that turns out to be because the levelling of your companions is broken. It is supposed to happen, (not according to their own actions, but in respect to your level, which is questionable), but that only works for one or two of them.

To make them level up, you have to tell them to leave, open the console, make sure they are selected, "disable", "enable", and have them join up again.

It made my Lydia from a wimp into a tank.

And right after that, I noticed the same type of enemies I was fighting before and could one-shot with my bow, now took three shots to kill at the next encounter.

Magic is a bit underpowered at the beginning, mostly because spells are expensive and you don't have a lot of mana. But I'm not having any problems at level 25 with a snaky mage type character.

Well, as long as you keep on doing the same thing and increasing the same stats, it works rather well until you're in your thirties. After that, you have maxed the stats, while the enemies keep on scaling.

And I'll bet you never compared it with shooting someone with an upgraded bow.

And no matter what, the higher level spells take too much time to cast for what they deliver.

I really like how much more varied the dungeons are, but I agree with Frank -- they're still very linear, and the "easy exit" thing is getting a bit dull and contrived.

Compared to Oblivion? Because Morrowind did that a lot better.

 

[KimB]

4. Magic is very disappointing, as it's not only quite limited in scope, but very underpowered as well. Scale the enemies, but don't scale your destruction magic accordingly? Even with a mod that increases the damage and multiple enchantments that reduce the mana for destruction spells to zero, it takes a long time to kill even a single enemy.

I don't know. I don't have a problem with my mage, who is now level 48. Once you get the perk that causes dual-wield destruction spells to stagger opponents, magic becomes incredibly powerful. I can take down even the most powerful dragons without too much difficulty. It's a bit slower than my dual-wielding thief, but much safer.

5. There's no way to increase most of your skills to the point you become really powerful and/or take a clever, alternative approach to things. You don't have enough perks for the first, and they reduced or removed all the abilities and spells for the second.

Yeah. It definitely seems like it becomes very difficult to really push most skills to their highest levels, barring a couple where it just takes a little persistence (enchanting, smithing, illusion, for example). But I don't really begrudge the design decision that forces you to only obtain a fraction of the available perks.

I am slightly annoyed that the faction quest lines are so short. The game seemed huge from the start, but with the short faction quest lines and the slow skill progression at higher levels, it doesn't take all that long for a character to reach their limits.

 

[The549]

This game is very good and well constructed, although graphically it really seems to be quite blocky and the openness often feels like a series of tubes.

 

[Frank]

I am slightly annoyed that the faction quest lines are so short. The game seemed huge from the start, but with the short faction quest lines and the slow skill progression at higher levels, it doesn't take all that long for a character to reach their limits.

Open the console, and type "player.setlevel x", where x is about 2/3rds of your current level. You can do the same with your skills (as levelling skills is what increases your level and perks), by using "player.setav <skill> x", where <skill> is the name of the skill without spaces (and "marksman" instead of "archery").

 

[Grall]

I haven't found any (obviously) scaled baddies; I found a vampire cave early on that kept kicking my ass, and now I can go plowing through it with ease.

I stumbled upon a Wispmother while I was still level 1 or 2 relatively close to the first town, up one of the mountain paths. It was surrounded by 4 smaller wisps that did major damage to me and killed my ass dead repeatedly in a couple seconds. I had to turn and run away max speed, but then my stamina ran out so they attacked again. Fortunately I had lost some on the way, so only two attacked right then and I was able to take them. Nearly killed me again though...

Very odd encounter of the game to place such hard enemies right at the start of the game. Maybe it was a bug; I've not been able to try and find that place again. Been too busy with other stuff...

Haven't encountered any wisps OR their mothers again elsewhere either (I'm now level 10 I think), and I'm not sure if they count as undead/ghosts or not; my bow and arrows didn't seem to do any damage when I first attacked. In Morrowind you needed silver weapons (or better) to injure ghosts, undead and daedra. Not sure how Skyrim handles that.

 

[Cyan]

Like Zelda? Did I say that? Seems more like your own imagination/bias.

"Adventure" fits Morrowind like a glove IMO, as what you do is all common stuff in such titles. Exploration, missions, dialogue with NPCs, killing monsters and leveling up. Seems adventure-y enough to me. You getting rashes on your body if people don't call it an RPG isn't my problem.

Well, Morrowind sure has touches of an adventure. I played it on the Xbox 1 in 2005 and I think that, technically, it's an RPG, and very hardcore at that. I wrote a couple of long posts about what an RPG is, in my opinion, in the Skyrim thread (console forum).

There are quests in Morrowind with more RPG elements than others, which are more adventure like. I mean this in the sense of decision-making capacity.

The RPG like quests let you be good, neutral, evil, rogue, smart, etc. The adventure like quests are those you complete and there isn't any or much decision-making on your own.

But the game, as a whole is an RPG. :smile:

 

[Cyan]

I am slightly annoyed that the faction quest lines are so short. The game seemed huge from the start, but with the short faction quest lines and the slow skill progression at higher levels, it doesn't take all that long for a character to reach their limits.

I am still level 7, what's the highest level your character can reach? I could use the console commands to test this but I have this game on the 360.

Frank, apparently some people are complaining about the fact that magicians seem to be underpowered. I'm sorry if I'm missing some bigger point here... but maybe this is what they are meant to be. It was the other way around in Oblivion, they were overpowered. In Skyrim it's melee and stealth characters -with daggers doing up to x30 damage- who seem to be overpowered, mages seem fine to me, as far as I know.

I will try a magician in my second character.

 

[Frank]

Btw, for something completely different:

There are many different ways that will determine the score you give a game. It being "fun to play" is the most important one, but also the most subjective.

It depends on what and how you like to play for the most part. And for me, open world games, from Deus Ex and Morrowind to Skyrim are what I like best. Nobody is holding your hand, nobody is telling you what to do. Make your mark!

And, next to the unlimitedness of Morrowind, the availability of the Construction Set to make modding it easy and create Your Own World is definitely winning me over.

Then again, while the graphics of Morrowind were great when it was released, I definitely prefer Skyrim today. If only it allowed the same, game-breaking exploits. Because that's what I liked best about it!

I cannot be bothered with any FPS (except Deus Ex, if you would put it into that category), and especially not the multiplayer ones. I guess I haven't got the required killer-instinct. Which is not to say that I don't like to excel, even (or especially) if that is difficult.

If I have to play a game where people can take multiple headshots and mostly be irritated, and killing is the main thing, I want the option to find out a way where they do go down after a single shot/hit/spell/whatever. And I definitely don't care about games that require MORE hits/shots/spells the better you get at it.


But first and foremost, I like exploring, experimenting and creating. Which is the primary thing I want from a Bethesda game. In many ways, they have a monopoly on that. So the more I'm allowed to do that, the happier I am. I don't care if it's hard or takes a while, all the sweeter when you get there. As long as you can get there!

Which is exactly the thing missing from Skyrim, atm. All the potential is there, but I cannot get it and they took an effort refusing it to me.


From what I could find, the new scripting language is a lot more mature, and object-driven. Rejoice! And while I don't understand why they used Flash for the UI, it seems you can do that from script as well .

What I am going to do, if possible this time (and probably never release, as that requires support and a manual), is to build a real IDE (Integrated Development Environment) in-game. Make myself into a Real Wizard.

Think the terrain is too flat? Cast the "Raise Terrain" spell. Find a nice, open place you want to live? Cast "Wall", "Roof", "Door", "Mark" and go get some furnishing.And if you want to do something that isn't possible yet, cast the "Create/Modify <whatever>" spell and do it while playing the game.

And I don't know about you, but Real Wizards Fly.

 

[Frank]

Frank, apparently some people are complaining about the fact that magicians seem to be underpowered. I'm sorry if I'm missing some bigger point here... but maybe this is what they are meant to be. It was the other way around in Oblivion, they were overpowered. In Skyrim it's melee and stealth characters -with daggers doing up to x30 damage- who seem to be overpowered, mages seem fine to me, as far as I know.

I will try a magician in my second character.

Well, I think you answered your question yourself in your previous post: is it an RPG? And if so, why?

I'll read your posts in the console thread.

For a more in-depth explanation, see my previous post.

 

[homerdog]

Basically, Frank believes he can fly. He believes he can touch the sky. He thinks about it every...oh nevermind.

 

[Cyan]

Well, I think you answered your question yourself in your previous post: is it an RPG? And if so, why?

I'll read your posts in the console thread.

For a more in-depth explanation, see my previous post.

I read your previous-post, and some of the things you would like to see in Skyrim are what I defined as Free Form RPG.

I do certainly understand free-form does a great job of character development and to some extent is essential in some way to use your imagination. I love to do that in Skyrim.

But you can also find limitations in the engine. Raising the terrain in Skyrim could be fine if the engine was meant for it, but I think only a few games allow you to do that, and they are shooters -Red Faction: Guerrilla is one of them-

These are my Roleplaying crash course posts :smile:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1598558&postcount=319

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1598846&postcount=343

 

[Cyan]

Basically, Frank believes he can fly. He believes he can touch the sky. He thinks about it every...oh nevermind.

hahah, Frank is quite cool.

A fun video I'd like to share:

 

[Frank]

Basically, Frank believes he can fly. He believes he can touch the sky. He thinks about it every...oh nevermind.

I do want a flying car, because I do really hate all the traffic jams each day.

But more to the point, I am a software developer. And I generally get assigned the tasks everyone else thinks are too hard/difficult/complex. I like it that way.

So, see it as a job deformation, that I want to tweak, change and adjust stuff all the time to my liking.


Then again, are you going to tell me, that you never wanted to change the way the world is working? Like, telekinesis or telepathy or flying? Or the mechanics how things work. I'm pretty sure you have said to yourself: "Damn! I hate that! If I had a say, it would work like that!"

Which is something you can do with the construction set in a Bethesda game, but only outside of the game.

My idea about a Wizard isn't so much that you can hurl a ball of fire, but that you can change the world. Literally.


Why is everything and everyone trying to kill you in the game all the time anyway, no matter if you're a nobody or all-powerful? That doesn't make sense.

Now, if you get fame and women for killing the high and mighty, sure. Because they became high and mighty to get that fame and those women in the first place.

As the "women" bit doesn't translate to a PC game all that well, and the "fame" bit gets boring fast, the sheer power you can wield is what's left.

For some, that is equal to a kill-count. For me, that is defined by the influence I have over the proceedings. And as I have zero influence over how the plots and quests play out, I want to make my mark in a different way.

"Killing" in videogames is a stupid concept anyway. Because, you don't, in any way or form. "Killing" someone in a multiuser FPS or MMO is stupid as well, as there is a very low, if any, penalty to being killed yourself. Simply try again, you lose nothing.

As a game, you can rank scores: who killed most. And I would add: without being killed himself. Because that's the main stopper in real-life.


Anyway, if you play a single-player game, where you have zero influence on the story or plot, what would YOU like to accomplish?

 

[KimB]

I am still level 7, what's the highest level your character can reach? I could use the console commands to test this but I have this game on the 360.

I honestly don't know. Leveling seems to slow way down as you get into the 40's. My guess is that it would be difficult to get much above 50. So far I've quit playing a character at around level 48-49. You typically will get to around level 35-40 after doing the main quest plus one major quest line. You can push it a bit higher by doing another main quest line, or by doing a series of side quests (e.g. the guilds have a large number of small fed-ex type quests that are entirely optional, you can hunt down dragon words with the help of the greybeards, or you can do other things like hunt down the daedric quests or the stones of Berenziah).

Anyway, let me just reiterate that I don't think mages are underpowered at all. They do have a problem, however, in that it really doesn't make sense to use the higher-level spells much at all: they just cost too much magicka for the damage they do. However, with the right perks, even the apprentice-level destruction spells can bring down the most powerful of enemies without too much difficulty. A little bit of quick timing and you can fire off dual-wielded spells in rapid succession, taking any foe down pretty rapidly. Each attack doesn't do all that much damage, but you can fire them off rapidly enough that it doesn't much matter.

So far I've also made a dual-wield thief character, and man, that was nuts. With elemental fury, I could take down nearly any enemy in the game in one volley of attacks. With the more powerful enemies, I'd have to stop mid-way through to drink some health and stamina potions, but the damage output was insane.

 

[Frank]

I read your previous-post, and some of the things you would like to see in Skyrim are what I defined as Free Form RPG.

I do certainly understand free-form does a great job of character development and to some extent is essential in some way to use your imagination. I love to do that in Skyrim.

But you can also find limitations in the engine. Raising the terrain in Skyrim could be fine if the engine was meant for it, but I think only a few games allow you to do that, and they are shooters -Red Faction: Guerrilla is one of them-

These are my Roleplaying crash course posts :smile:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1598558&postcount=319

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1598846&postcount=343

Thanks for linking the posts.

I pretty much agree with your definition of Role-Playing (I even did that a few times in real life with a group, by dressing up like who we wanted to be and spending a week on some remote location acting like them).

But most of the things you would do like that, don't translate to a computer game. The whole human/social aspect is lost. And you have the focus on killing.

It's like the difference between European and US comics: generally, in the European ones, a lot of things happen without it becoming a soap, and there is little (if any) killing. People are encountering strange and interesting adventures. While in the US comics, everyone is a Super Hero trying to save the world, a Super Villan, an innocent bystander or a casualty.

Computer games generally take the second category. With you being the biggest and baddest Super Hero, raking up the highest kill-score. The story is secondary and superfluous. And you have no influence on it, except perhaps that you can select one of multiple endings, by your last actions. And no NPC cares.


How would you implement Role-Playing in Skyrim? I'm curious.

 

[Frank]

Chalnoth, don't you think an upgraded bow offers a much better bang for the buck (time to get and invest perks) than any spell?

 

[swaaye]

hey guys I spotted what appears to be a rock pulled right out of Morrowind.

 

[KimB]

Chalnoth, don't you think an upgraded bow offers a much better bang for the buck (time to get and invest perks) than any spell?

Sorry, haven't gotten into archery much at all yet. I think maybe I'll do that next char. But my experience with archery so far is that it takes much longer to set up shots than it does to set up spells (though maybe there's a perk that speeds that up for the bow, I haven't looked). So maybe, but it would have to do a hell of a lot more damage than spells per shot. And have a high chance of staggering. But again, I haven't looked.

Edit: Oh, and you only need about 4-5 or so perks in destruction to make that skill tree tremendously powerful. Maybe a bit longer to get the magicka regeneration high enough to keep up sustained volleys.

 

[Frank]

Sorry, haven't gotten into archery much at all yet. I think maybe I'll do that next char. But my experience with archery so far is that it takes much longer to set up shots than it does to set up spells (though maybe there's a perk that speeds that up for the bow, I haven't looked). So maybe, but it would have to do a hell of a lot more damage than spells per shot. And have a high chance of staggering. But again, I haven't looked.

Edit: Oh, and you only need about 4-5 or so perks in destruction to make that skill tree tremendously powerful. Maybe a bit longer to get the magicka regeneration high enough to keep up sustained volleys.

Well, the bow I'm currently using does 318 damage, without elemental damage enchantments and an archery of only 57. But with some enchantments that raise archery damage on my armour. With elemental damage enchantments or a higher archery, it would do even more damage. And I only invested a single perk in archery (but more in smithing and enchanting).

Sneak damage is x2 by default.

That's like ten-twenty castings to a single arrow

 

[homerdog]

Plus there is an archery perk that staggers enemies pretty much every time you hit them with an arrow.