Enough with the "cinematic" crap

[ZebMacahan]

I read about an old interview with David Jaffe where he talked about how games and movies are different mediums, and that he didnt like how games where trying to be more like movies for example by removing healthbars.
"Whats wrong with having a healthbar which the player feel good when its refilled", or something like that. I think he´s 100% right. The way we interact with a game is very different with how we engage with movies. Having a healtbar is very unbtrusive IMO. You instantilly know how much health you have after a very quick glance, you dont think about it. The whole screen turns red thing is just anoying, it effect how effectively you can play the game and give you less information than a healthbar.

I started replaying Callisto Protocol after getting my PS5 Pro because man those graphics. Callisto is IMO fundamentaly badly designed in every aspect. It looks like much of it steems from it aiming to look "cinematic".

The camera is too close to you character, the fov is too no narrow. The camera turns really slowly so looking around is a constant freaking chore. The way the camera gets really close when you´re fighting your enemies. All these thing might make the game look really cool when your watching it but it takes away your ability to get a bearing on your surroundings, navigate the world and play the game. There are more problems but these are some.

I´ve started playing Alan Wake 2. A certain fight suffers from similar problems. Its hard to get a bearing on your surroundings etc. When your characters health is low the red blood effects covers most of the screen so I cant tell wtf is going on. The game already have a health bar. Its beyong me how they decided to add those effects that makes it harder to play the game when you need as much control as possible, in a fight where one more hit will kill you.

 

[Karamazov]

It just that you don't like some type of design choices, but you can still play with more traditionnal games if you like better, but that design is not new, the first RE game on PS1 was already like that, no health bar, and you had to go to the menu to see your approximate health status.

 

[Nesh]

I read about an old interview with David Jaffe where he talked about how games and movies are different mediums, and that he didnt like how games where trying to be more like movies for example by removing healthbars.
"Whats wrong with having a healthbar which the player feel good when its refilled", or something like that. I think he´s 100% right. The way we interact with a game is very different with how we engage with movies. Having a healtbar is very unbtrusive IMO. You instantilly know how much health you have after a very quick glance, you dont think about it. The whole screen turns red thing is just anoying, it effect how effectively you can play the game and give you less information than a healthbar.

I started replaying Callisto Protocol after getting my PS5 Pro because man those graphics. Callisto is IMO fundamentaly badly designed in every aspect. It looks like much of it steems from it aiming to look "cinematic".

The camera is too close to you character, the fov is too no narrow. The camera turns really slowly so looking around is a constant freaking chore. The way the camera gets really close when you´re fighting your enemies. All these thing might make the game look really cool when your watching it but it takes away your ability to get a bearing on your surroundings, navigate the world and play the game. There are more problems but these are some.

I´ve started playing Alan Wake 2. A certain fight suffers from similar problems. Its hard to get a bearing on your surroundings etc. When your characters health is low the red blood effects covers most of the screen so I cant tell wtf is going on. The game already have a health bar. Its beyong me how they decided to add those effects that makes it harder to play the game when you need as much control as possible, in a fight where one more hit will kill you.

I totally agree with the screen thing. In Silent Hill 2 Remake you get a red outline on the screen and it totally destroys the immersion. Even though it is not the whole screen that gets red It is intrusive. Instead of being lost in the game's world it makes it apparent that you are watching a screen since you are literally looking inside a rectangle shaped red outliner. It screaming in your face that you are looking through a frame. I sometimes want to save health even though I have some damage but it makes me use health bottles more often just to get rid of it. The game already communicates your health through other visual cues like the character's pose and movement. We dont need the red outliner.

Since you mentioned Callisto, Dead Space had a genius way of communicating your health by simply looking at the suit's emmission at the back of your character. But we also have examples like MGS which traditionally had your health and equipment info on screen without breaking the cinematic atmosphere. What made MGS so amazing is that it was self aware that it is cinematic VIDEO GAME that knew it was controlled by a player. It made the player feel like they were the directors of the movie and not the movie directing thej player. Hence why the gameplay was so rich and ace, even with its long cinematics and dialogies.

But yes it is trtue that so many games have shallow gameplay while emphasizing too much in trying to be a movie.

 

[Remij]

There's more than 1000 gamey games releasing every month or so... The beauty of games is that they can be both. I like cinematic games with no, or very little, HUD.. and I like the gamiest of games.

 

[ZebMacahan]

I totally agree with the screen thing. In Silent Hill 2 Remake you get a red outline on the screen and it totally destroys the immersion. Even though it is not the whole screen that gets red It is intrusive. Instead of being lost in the game's world it makes it apparent that you are watching a screen since you are literally looking inside a rectangle shaped red outliner. It screaming in your face that you are looking through a frame. I sometimes want to save health even though I have some damage but it makes me use health bottles more often just to get rid of it. The game already communicates your health through other visual cues like the character's pose and movement. We dont need the red outliner.

Since you mentioned Callisto, Dead Space had a genius way of communicating your health by simply looking at the suit's emmission at the back of your character. But we also have examples like MGS which traditionally had your health and equipment info on screen without breaking the cinematic atmosphere. What made MGS so amazing is that it was self aware that it is cinematic VIDEO GAME that knew it was controlled by a player. It made the player feel like they were the directors of the movie and not the movie directing thej player. Hence why the gameplay was so rich and ace, even with its long cinematics and dialogies.

But yes it is trtue that so many games have shallow gameplay while emphasizing too much in trying to be a movie.

Yeah, I know that Im in danger when my health bar is low. That creates tension in itself. Many of those "cinematic effects" ruins the immersion by like you said, reminding you you´re playing a game. In some way it reminds me of the head bobbing effect some fps games have.

 

[trinibwoy]

There's more than 1000 gamey games releasing every month or so... The beauty of games is that they can be both. I like cinematic games with no, or very little, HUD.. and I like the gamiest of games.

Yeah I’m not really understanding the point being made here. Should there be zero cinematic games developed because one person doesn’t like them? Or should that person just pick from the thousands of readily available games that aren’t cinematic?

 

[ZebMacahan]

There's more than 1000 gamey games releasing every month or so... The beauty of games is that they can be both. I like cinematic games with no, or very little, HUD.. and I like the gamiest of games.

Dead space did it really well. The problem is when they push the "cinematic" angle too far and the gameplay suffers from it.

 

[ZebMacahan]

Yeah I’m not really understanding the point being made here. Should there be zero cinematic games developed because one person doesn’t like them? Or should that person just pick from the thousands of readily available games that aren’t cinematic?

Your argument could be made againts anything anyone have ever said about game design.

-"I dont like how the checkpoint system sometimes forces you to replay one hour of the game."
-"There are plenty of games with save anywhere feature or more checkpoints"

-"The platforming can be frustrating because your window for pressing the use you grappling hook button is too narrow"
-"There are plenty games with easier or no platforming".

Why discuss gamedesign at all?

 

[Riddlewire]

Optional and/or reconfigurable HUD elements are the best design.
Sometimes I want or need substantial gameplay information presented onscreen while playing. But, even in that same game, it can be nice to disable those elements selectively.

I'm 100% opposed to forced elements that have no value other than the developers' vision of what is "cinematic", though. Example: The visible visors in later Halo games that can't be disabled. It feels like my peripheral vision is being blocked in those games. They don't take up a ton of pixels, but the effect is profoundly annoying.

Also: Speed Lines. Worst and dumbest effect in all of gaming and should be banned in any game that doesn't involve racing (and should be left out of most of those, too).

 

[Nesh]

Yeah I’m not really understanding the point being made here. Should there be zero cinematic games developed because one person doesn’t like them? Or should that person just pick from the thousands of readily available games that aren’t cinematic?

That's not his point. His point is sacrificing good game design and making games less enjoyable for the sake of being cinematic. Games can be both cinematic and enjoyable but there are cases where the former is done without proper consideration of the other elements of a game

 

[ZebMacahan]

Optional and/or reconfigurable HUD elements are the best design.
Sometimes I want or need substantial gameplay information presented onscreen while playing. But, even in that same game, it can be nice to disable those elements selectively.

I'm 100% opposed to forced elements that have no value other than the developers' vision of what is "cinematic", though. Example: The visible visors in later Halo games that can't be disabled. It feels like my peripheral vision is being blocked in those games. They don't take up a ton of pixels, but the effect is profoundly annoying.

Also: Speed Lines. Worst and dumbest effect in all of gaming and should be banned in any game that doesn't involve racing (and should be left out of most of those, too).

I think it depends on the game. I like how tsushima dont have the ubisoft marker map stuff, it makes you focus on the environments more. I dont play stuff like diablo or wow, but in those games I suspect its crucial to always have access to your stats, items, manna etc. I figure games like callisto is somewhere in between. An isometric view would take you out of the immersion, but making it hassle to look around because the camera is slow for cinematic reasons hurts immersion more than helps it.

Totaly agree on the halo visor thing. Its like head bobbing, irl your brain filters that stuff out.

Alien Isolotaion was one of the games that gave me most cinematic feel, probably because they nailed the retro design of the movies and used the same music. Sometimes entering a very well made environment with the right musical cues did alot more than entering a cutscene.

 

[Riddlewire]

I dont play stuff like diablo or wow, but in those games I suspect its crucial to always have access to your stats, items, manna etc.

Even in those games, the developers should provide the option to disable HUD elements. Just for the option of taking screenshots, if for no other reason.
(I don't play them, either. So maybe they have that ability.)

Ultimately, reconfigurable HUD options should be included in every game, without exception. Even if it makes the game unplayable.

 

[Reznor007]

Even in those games, the developers should provide the option to disable HUD elements. Just for the option of taking screenshots, if for no other reason.
(I don't play them, either. So maybe they have that ability.)

Ultimately, reconfigurable HUD options should be included in every game, without exception. Even if it makes the game unplayable.

Wow actually has one of the most versatile ui's around. The default is very configurable, and you can press alt-z to fully hide and show it at any time. But in addition to that, it supports user made Lua script ui add-ons. Everything from unit frames, to action bars, to map improvements, track combat interactions to build meters to see how much damage each player is dealing or who healed who for how much.

They've had to restrict the things in the past because you used to be able to use 3d coordinates to basically graffiti walls or floors in dungeons for positioning, or even have things appear on players to signal if you need to spread out.

 

[tuna]

That's not his point. His point is sacrificing good game design and making games less enjoyable for the sake of being cinematic. Games can be both cinematic and enjoyable but there are cases where the former is done without proper consideration of the other elements of a game

Yes, and the actual point ZebMacahan is trying to make and the discussion we could make would be much clearer if the headline/topic header actually reflected that. Maybe something like "Bad cinematic influences makes games worse"?

 

[Daozang]

Well, you can't really have a real discussion when you start with:
"Enough with the "cinematic" crap"


edit,
post redundant, it was a while since I refreshed the browser...

 

[Nesh]

Well, you can't really have a real discussion when you start with:
"Enough with the "cinematic" crap"


edit,
post redundant, it was a while since I refreshed the browser...

Well I base my judgement on the actual comment inside not on the title. I think it was clear what he meant after reading that