Technological discussion on PS3 security and crack.*

[patsu]

From his point of view, he probably felt that he has to wash his hands and give the key to someone else because he may not be able to value add further. He's not a programmer by his own admission. If he doesn't produce any usable result (or at least a "Hello World"), his reputation will be "tainted".

I agree he's misguided. What a pity ! The real benefactors will probably surround him to offer help now (or when he becomes more desparate).

 

[obonicus]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure I understand the 'hypervisor is written in C++' remarks. Why is this a greater hurdle? It's not like he's seeing code listings.

 

[rpg.314]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure I understand the 'hypervisor is written in C++' remarks. Why is this a greater hurdle? It's not like he's seeing code listings.

He might be referring to the name mangling c++ compilers perform. It might be making it harder for him to relate hypervisor disassembly to real functions. He also said it's PPC in that comment of his, prolly suggesting his relative inexperience with ppc assembly.

 

[DJ12]

So his hacked PS3 has now become a "hacked" Linux OS where he kills all the SPEs thinking his code is working?

I don't think this will lead to piracy by the sounds of it, maybe a fully hardware assisted linux maybe at a push.

Give me a nudge when he does anything with the GameOS, even name checking it will do.

 

[flynn]

So his hacked PS3 has now become a "hacked" Linux OS where he kills all the SPEs thinking his code is working?

I don't think this will lead to piracy by the sounds of it, maybe a fully hardware assisted linux maybe at a push.

Give me a nudge when he does anything with the GameOS, even name checking it will do.

Apparently his hardware allows him to gain full access to the system from within Linux (one of the screenshots shows a custom .ko to glitch memory being loaded). I think what he meant by the SPEs being stopped by the time Linux boots it means they are idle at that point.

I honestly fail to see how even compromising the HV would allow him to retrieve any key. Said keys are encyprted with the root key which never leaves the CPU and can only be accessed by signed code. Unless the Cell has a fatal security flaw I don't see it happening.

Let's how far he gets. I don't understand what he is going to gain from this media exposure, though.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Apparently well known and "respected" PSP hackers Dark_Alex and Mathieulh have confirmed that the hack is the "real deal".

 

[-tkf-]

It would be very fitting is this hack indeed was working and especially if it was working on the Slim as well, that would give a well-deserved "F*CK YOU" to Sony for removing the OtherOS capabilities.

However, even as it was before, the OtherOS was too crippled due to the lack of RSX. As others have already stated, a soon 10 year old Xbox with XBMC is a way more feature-complete mediaplayer than a PS3 or 360.

For a brief period of time, (I think it was before 2.10) you could actually access the RSX from OtherOS, but Sony instantly removed that "hole".

Then they even removed the possibility to run BD-J apps from USB, which posed no security risk at all (well, not more than running BD-J from Bluray, which is stilll allowed). I can't even begin to understand the reasoning behind this:
"Oh no, people can play slow NES emulators without booting to OtherOS, we must address this serious issue at ONCE!" ?

Sony deserves to have the PS3 hacked, no question about it in my mind.

Unsecure platforms spoil the fun for gamers. You asking for this make you a complete and utter ignorant that doesn´t give a **ck about your fellow gamers.

Sure, you could boil it down to you being angry that Sony removed the OtherOS option, but then, that option is out there still to be had on the used market, and if you don´t have a Fat PS3 already then you are pissing aginst the wind with that argument.

So that leaves us with a Mediaplayer, which can be had for very little money from WD or someone else that can easily compete and beat a XBOX or most anything that can be bought.

The demands from everybody in regards what they should be able to do with their Purchase from a hardware vendor is pretty impressive. Maybe they should start reading up on what you buy instead, and leave your money in the pocket. All i see is vague excuses for pirate games and cheaters.

 

[JPT]

The demands from everybody in regards what they should be able to do with their Purchase from a hardware vendor is pretty impressive. Maybe they should start reading up on what you buy instead, and leave your money in the pocket. All i see is vague excuses for pirate games and cheaters.

My sentiments exactly, just not able to put it into words they way you did.

 

[obonicus]

Apparently well known and "respected" PSP hackers Dark_Alex and Mathieulh have confirmed that the hack is the "real deal".

Mathieulh said early on that this seemed legit, that geohotz did get what he got. He was among the people questioning geohotz as to how exactly he was going to actually finish the job, to which geohotz would reply that he didn't need to, that all he had to do was control the SPUs.

I'm wondering, though. If he can create new hypervisor calls, can't he execute arbitrary code? Or is he mangling the existing calls somehow?

 

[George]

Unsecure platforms spoil the fun for gamers. You asking for this make you a complete and utter ignorant that doesn´t give a **ck about your fellow gamers.

Sure, you could boil it down to you being angry that Sony removed the OtherOS option, but then, that option is out there still to be had on the used market, and if you don´t have a Fat PS3 already then you are pissing aginst the wind with that argument.

So that leaves us with a Mediaplayer, which can be had for very little money from WD or someone else that can easily compete and beat a XBOX or most anything that can be bought.

The demands from everybody in regards what they should be able to do with their Purchase from a hardware vendor is pretty impressive. Maybe they should start reading up on what you buy instead, and leave your money in the pocket. All i see is vague excuses for pirate games and cheaters.

You are entitled to how you feel but one discrepancy in your argument is in your first paragraph. How secure is the PC? What some of you choose to do is ignore all other examples and limit the scope of your thinking. A hacked PS3 will most likely be banned from ever going online, from ever affecting these fellow players you care about so much.

Those commenting on the possible losses from piracy need to take a look at the previously and still preferred dev platform which is the 360. Still successful (except for self inflicted problems with RROD) after how many years of being hacked?

Your last line is irrelevant. Leave your money in your pocket? So in the end you rather they don't make any contribution whatsoever to the gaming industry? Pirates buy games, not that they will be the only ones interested in a modded ps3 but your arguments seem to be geared mainly towards them.

Also I don't think sony went through all this to stop pirates, more like preventing the console being used for purposes beyond simple end-user tasks.

A hacked ps3 would definitely interest researchers and the like. Sorry to be off-topic but this thread seems to always go in the direction of ethics.

When geohot mentioned stopped SPUs in linux he meant they were idle, not disabled. When the BBC article mentioned ps2 games on the ps3 those were the words of the author. Notice no quotations.

You really should give him more credit. Most of you are making claims based on theory while he is working directly with the hardware.

 

[deeFive]

i also hope that he doesnt manage to crack gameOS but like the sound of a fully hardware powered linux box, not sure why (mabie its the idea of having a cheap devkit!).

but i do not want him to turn the console in to a dreamcast/psp where everything is pirated!

 

[Sdw]

So that leaves us with a Mediaplayer, which can be had for very little money from WD or someone else that can easily compete and beat a XBOX or most anything that can be bought.

Yeah, but I already HAVE a nice looking PS3 next to my TV, that hardware wise is well capable of doing anything that those dedicated media players can do and more, as well as play games (LBP rules!).
That Sony choose not to allow RSX access (and in the Slim, which I fortunately don't have, remove OtherOS access altogether) is in my opinion artificially limiting the usefulness of the device, and if someone were to remove those limits, I'm all for it.

 

[manux]

Yeah, but I already HAVE a nice looking PS3 next to my TV, that hardware wise is well capable of doing anything that those dedicated media players can do and more, as well as play games (LBP rules!).
That Sony choose not to allow RSX access (and in the Slim, which I fortunately don't have, remove OtherOS access altogether) is in my opinion artificially limiting the usefulness of the device, and if someone were to remove those limits, I'm all for it.

What would you do with rsx? It's not going to give you anything significant if the goal is to run nes/mame/ps1 emulators or hd video codecs(mostly in fullscreen for any practical application).

The problem with ps3 linux to my mind is that nearly all the usual c/c++ code just runs like garbage on the cpu and also all the sse/sse2/whatever optimizations are not compatible. One would need to refactor the existing c/c++ codes to use spu's and parallelize tasks to get any real performance(i.e. 1080p decode/encode). This refactoring seems to be far from trivial and not much has happened in ps3 linux scene. Similarly all the usual window handling, rasterization etc. what basic user might want could be done on spu's very efficiently if proper code was written. There is some experimental stuff already existing such as this:
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewforum.php?f=29 (SPU medialib, xv driver)

If the argument is writing 3d games then the rsx is utterly outdated nowdays and time would be better spent with more modern architectures(if the goal is to actually gain usable knowledge and get hired into the industry). I would see any cheapish dx11 card better choice for learning 3d programming than moaning after ps3 linux+rsx.

All this said, it would still be great to have gpu access on ps3 linux but I wouldn't expect that to make any difference to ps3 linux usability as a mediacenter as all the issues with performance would still be there(slow c/c++ code running only on ppu, lack of memory, missing code parallelization etc)

edit. I think intel atom+ion like platforms pretty much killed any need to use a console as mediacenter for internetz content. This box is pretty perfect for content upto 720 http://www.amazon.com/CompuLab-FIT-...ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1264519238&sr=1-1 (or more expensive similar machine with nvidia ion if 1080p is needed). And that also runs xp, skype, and all the usual pc stuff and all that without actually any need for complicated hacking That box is about cd-size and 6W(passively cooled). I just cannot see how any xbox360, ps3 or whatnot can compete with that as an internet mediacenter(for blu-ray playback ps3 still would rock).

 

[Crossbar]

You are entitled to how you feel but one discrepancy in your argument is in your first paragraph. How secure is the PC? What some of you choose to do is ignore all other examples and limit the scope of your thinking. A hacked PS3 will most likely be banned from ever going online, from ever affecting these fellow players you care about so much.

The PC isn´t secure at all and that is the reason we see more and more console exclusive titles and PC releases coming many months after the console release. Due to piracy the PC is becoming a less attractive platform.
All games are not online games I hardly play online myself, so yes a hacked console still affect fellow players even if Sony can ban modded consoles which we still don´t know if they will be able to if pirated games come to the PS3, it took MS many years to put a stop to it and maybe there is a new 360 mod out by now, i don´t know.

Those commenting on the possible losses from piracy need to take a look at the previously and still preferred dev platform which is the 360. Still successful (except for self inflicted problems with RROD) after how many years of being hacked?

Prefered for being the first next gen console and similar to the PC environment yes, not because of the piracy.

Your last line is irrelevant. Leave your money in your pocket? So in the end you rather they don't make any contribution whatsoever to the gaming industry? Pirates buy games, not that they will be the only ones interested in a modded ps3 but your arguments seem to be geared mainly towards them.

He was obviously refering to the people asking for XBMC functionality, they should of course buy a box with that feature set if that is what they want.

Also I don't think sony went through all this to stop pirates, more like preventing the console being used for purposes beyond simple end-user tasks.

Really?

A hacked ps3 would definitely interest researchers and the like. Sorry to be off-topic but this thread seems to always go in the direction of ethics.

So why should gamers and game companies be subsidising the hardware used by researchers?

You really should give him more credit. Most of you are making claims based on theory while he is working directly with the hardware.

I could give him credit for being a smart guy but nothing more. If I was one of those downloading 360 ISO torrents I would hail him as a new Messiah, but I am not.

I don´t see this bringing the industry forward. What I would like to happen is that Sony brings the manufacturing cost of the console down so much that they start making money from every SKU. Then they perhaps could bring back the OtherOS option and let people use their PS3 to whatever they want, still not playing pirated games.

 

[Sdw]

What would you do with rsx? It's not going to give you anything significant if the goal is to run nes/mame/ps1 emulators or hd video codecs(mostly in fullscreen for any practical application).

The problem with ps3 linux to my mind is that nearly all the usual c/c++ code just runs like garbage on the cpu and also all the sse/sse2/whatever optimizations are not compatible. One would need to refactor the existing c/c++ codes to use spu's and parallelize tasks to get any real performance(i.e. 1080p decode/encode). This refactoring seems to be far from trivial and not much has happened in ps3 linux scene. Similarly all the usual window handling, rasterization etc. what basic user might want could be done on spu's very efficiently if proper code was written. There is some experimental stuff already existing such as this:
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewforum.php?f=29 (SPU medialib, xv driver)

I am not all that familiar with the inner workings of mediaplaying, but surely things like upscaling (ie. DVD content -> 1920x1080) and possible other stuff (YUV stuff perhaps?) could be done using the RSX hardware instead of having to write specific SPU code that few seem capable of.
Also from what I gathered, it's not even possible to set 1080p24 mode as it is now (gotta have perfect sync for those 24fps .mkvs!) but surely the RSX has an option to do so as the PS3 does it just fine when playing BluRay discs.
But you are right that the codecs themselves probably would need SPU optimization to get 1080p (or perhaps even 720p) decoding up to speed.

edit. I think intel atom+ion like platforms pretty much killed any need to use a console as mediacenter for internetz content. This box is pretty perfect for content upto 720 http://www.amazon.com/CompuLab-FIT-...ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1264519238&sr=1-1 (or more expensive similar machine with nvidia ion if 1080p is needed). And that also runs xp, skype, and all the usual pc stuff and all that without actually any need for complicated hacking That box is about cd-size and 6W(passively cooled). I just cannot see how any xbox360, ps3 or whatnot can compete with that as an internet mediacenter(for blu-ray playback ps3 still would rock).

Yeah, that's just the thing, I hate having to sink another $300 for yet another box, when I have a machine capable of decoding 1080p content perfectly (as the PS3 does every time I feed it a nice new BluRay), it's just the software that is lacking.

 

[manux]

I am not all that familiar with the inner workings of mediaplaying, but surely things like upscaling (ie. DVD content -> 1920x1080) and possible other stuff (YUV stuff perhaps?) could be done using the RSX hardware instead of having to write specific SPU code that few seem capable of.
Also from what I gathered, it's not even possible to set 1080p24 mode as it is now (gotta have perfect sync for those 24fps .mkvs!) but surely the RSX has an option to do so as the PS3 does it just fine when playing BluRay discs.
But you are right that the codecs themselves probably would need SPU optimization to get 1080p (or perhaps even 720p) decoding up to speed.




Yeah, that's just the thing, I hate having to sink another $300 for yet another box, when I have a machine capable of decoding 1080p content perfectly (as the PS3 does every time I feed it a nice new BluRay), it's just the software that is lacking.

Upscaling is not a problem(it's trivial). SPU medialib already has various (goodish) algorithms for upscaling. The problem is more in the h264 decoding being dog slow and there is no help from rsx to do that. Cell processor is perfect for running algorithms like video decoding, much better than rsx with it's dx9 level shaders. It's just that somebody has to write the code first and it's not trivial Perfect solution would have been if sony could have provided access to the videocodecs in gameos.

If you use the hacked mediaplayer it plays back 720p mkv's pretty good on ps3 linux. It uses some rudimentary optimizations + enables multithreading on ppu.

 

[manux]

Yeah, that's just the thing, I hate having to sink another $300 for yet another box, when I have a machine capable of decoding 1080p content perfectly (as the PS3 does every time I feed it a nice new BluRay), it's just the software that is lacking.

Remux the internetz mkv files or use ps3mediaserver. No need for ps3linux and the remuxed stuff works. If you need subtitles then remux+create avchd disc. I would buy a separate box that is a) silent b) doesn't eat loads of electricity c) has plenty of memory to run browser and flash d) just works compared to hacking. I don't see ps3 as the mediabox to have anymore, there are better equipment for that. If I didn't want a pc I would start looking at the oppo or lg blu-ray player with mkv+dlna+whatnot support.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Is there much point in discussing piracy and excuses for hacking in a tech thread? This talk belongs elsewhere.

 

[manux]

Is there much point in discussing piracy and excuses for hacking in a tech thread? This talk belongs elsewhere.

It's a good offtopic which could be branched to it's own thread if the discussion doesn't die(which it might).

 

[obonicus]

There already is a 'ps3 been hacked' piracy discussion thread in the 'ethics of technology' subforum:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=56289