Techniques of Special optical effects (lens flare, DOF, etc.) *spawn

[L. Scofield]

Xbox 1, DX8.The guy that created the RTHDRIBL demo created a LDR implementation of the effects and helped Bunkasha integrate it into Double S.T.E.A.L. 2. And if I recall correctly, the game ran at 720p, too.

More info here.

Thx, I knew it had something to do with the Wreckless games but I couldn't find good info on it.

So there you go patsu, not only realtime but already implemented on a last gen game.

 

[patsu]

Thx, I knew it had something to do with the Wreckless games but I couldn't find good info on it.

So there you go patsu, not only realtime but already implemented on a last gen game.

Not the same thing. It's an LDR implementation vs the HDR one in the tech demo. There is also no proof that the Xbox 1 implementation has all the assets and effects at the same quality level.

Finally, it may not (does not) give the same look as KZ2's lens flare effect.

 

[L. Scofield]

The point is that it's a realtime technique and not some CG like you suggested. Even though the implementation is certainly simplified in the Xbox game, there's no reason to think it could not be implemented this gen with good results. And yeah, it doesn't give the same effect as KZ2, obviously. One is realistic the other is not.

Anyways, any info on how does KZ2 render its lens flare effects? Nebula posted an approximation of that by an unrelated programmer, but I'd like to know if there's info from Guerrilla on this subject.

 

[patsu]

The point is that it's a realtime technique and not some CG like you suggested.

Correction ! It is not some CG like the outdated webpage suggested.

Even though the implementation is certainly simplified in the Xbox game, there's no reason to think it could not be implemented this gen with good results. And yeah, it doesn't give the same effect as KZ2, obviously. One is realistic the other is not.

I wouldn't know since I didn't check out the source or demo. The point is KZ2's len flare complements the game well. The dull colored setting needs a fanciful lens flare effect. Realistic effect does not always cut it. We are on Helghan anyway. It does not exist in real life. ^_^

Anyways, any info on how does KZ2 render its lens flare effects? Nebula posted an approximation of that by an unrelated programmer, but I'd like to know if there's info from Guerrilla on this subject.

I posted a link above.

EDIT:

Here it is...
http://sijm.ca/2009/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/michiel-van-der-leeuw.pdf

Bloom + Lens Reflection

...

* SPUs do
• Depth-dependent intensity response curve
• Hierarchical 7x7 gaussian blur (16 bit fixed point)
• Upscaling results from different levels
• Internal Lens Reflection (inspired by Masaki Kawase)
• Accumulating into results buffer

 

[L. Scofield]

Correction ! It is not some CG like the outdated webpage suggested.

I really don't know how you could infer that from this:

rthdribl (DirectX9)

- Real-Time High Dynamic Range Image-Based Lighting -

Here it is...
http://sijm.ca/2009/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/michiel-van-der-leeuw.pdf

Heh, funny how this paper references the tech demo we've been discussing xD

No mention of chromatic aberration though.

 

[patsu]

I really don't know how you could infer that from this:

How about...

"The Glare, Motion Blur, Fresnel Reflection and Depth of Field effects work properly by rendering with the HDR (see Fig.1-3). Fig.4 shows the "Automatic Exposure Adjustment". And Fig.5 images are are variety of the Glare patterns that can be generated in the demo.

These effects are still expensive for real-time rendering like games, but will hopefully be of practical use in the near future. Enjoy the future real-time rendering!"

Heh, funny how this paper references the tech demo we've been discussing xD

No mention of chromatic aberration though.

Yes, but Guerilla implemented it in their own way using post processing ! SPU post processing. ^_^
... and tailored the look for KZ2.

There is another slide with more detail. Looking for it now...

EDIT:
Ah, same slides but with more notes:

Notes:
- First effect we ported, most linear
- 2.6% of five SPUs
- Repeated downsample until 1/64th buffer size
- Accumulate into premultiplied alpha compositing buffer

 

[L. Scofield]

How about...

"The Glare, Motion Blur, Fresnel Reflection and Depth of Field effects work properly by rendering with the HDR (see Fig.1-3). Fig.4 shows the "Automatic Exposure Adjustment". And Fig.5 images are are variety of the Glare patterns that can be generated in the demo.

These effects are still expensive for real-time rendering like games, but will hopefully be of practical use in the near future. Enjoy the future real-time rendering!´"

Well, yeah, back then even though it was real time, it ran like crap XD

Yes, but Guerilla implemented it in their own way using post processing ! SPU post processing. ^_^
... and tailored the look for KZ2.

There is another slide with more detail. Looking for it now...

EDIT:
Ah, same slides but with more notes:

Yep, their effect is great too. Check out the thread I just posted on the PC games forum, that-s another awesome example of real time lens flare.

 

[patsu]

Well, yeah, back then even though it was real time, it ran like crap XD

Yeah well, that means it's not good enough for real time in 2003 using a PC part GPU and config. Guerilla engineered the effects in their own ways.

While KZ2's slides did not mention Chromatic Aberration explicitly, the visual effect is apparent for those who played the game -- even though we may not know what it's called technically. The link Nebula posted mentioned it too.

 

[L. Scofield]

Yeah well, that means it's not good enough for real time in 2003 using a PC part GPU and config. Guerilla engineered the effects in their own ways.

While KZ2's slides did not mention Chromatic Aberration explicitly, the visual effect is apparent for those who played the game -- even though we may not know what it's called technically. The link Nebula posted mentioned it too.

Well, there's a big difference between faking chromatic aberration (KZ2 approach) and simulating it.

 

[patsu]

Using polygons and triangles in 3D rendering is faking it too. It is not always a bad thing.

I don't see why they need to implement the actual optical effect just for lens flare when a cheaper, fitting and beautiful alternative exists. This is human ingenuity. GG talked about dynamic radiocity and other advanced effects for future work. They are certainly not slacking.

 

[ultragpu]

GG talked about dynamic radiocity and other advanced effects for future work. They are certainly not slacking.

I'm very interested in this dynamic radiosity ever since it was revealed in the slides couple years ago. Maybe the tech masters here can point it out for me from the gameplay footage showing later on today? That is, if it'll be there at all in the pre alpha build.

 

[L. Scofield]

Using polygons and triangles in 3D rendering is faking it too. It is not always a bad thing.

I don't see why they need to implement the actual optical effect just for lens flare when a cheaper, fitting and beautiful alternative exists. This is human ingenuity. GG talked about dynamic radiocity and other advanced effects for future work. They are certainly not slacking.

You certainly are good to put a spin on everything xD. I simply dislike when someone claims X is doing something that really isn't. That may be fine for other forums, but not here I think

 

[patsu]

Spin ? these are legitimate engineering solutions. In your view, 3D rendering would not be discussed here since it is fundamentally fake. Circles/spheres are not made of triangles.

KZ2 lens flare/internal reflection has chromatic aberration visual effect. It's apparent. This is a game thread, not a technical thread.

You're free to dislike GG's techniques. Don't think you have the rights to tell us what and how to discuss.

EDIT:
In fact, Masaki Kawase presented the following in GDC 2003:

"Frame Buffer Postprocessing Effects in DOUBLE-S.T.E.A.L (Wreckless)"
http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/archives/GDC2003_DSTEAL.ppt

It looks like GG implemented a variation in KZ2 using the SPUs.

 

[L. Scofield]

Chromatic aberration looks like this:

KZ2 does not present that effect. Simple as that.

 

[Neb]

Yeah well, that means it's not good enough for real time in 2003 using a PC part GPU and config. Guerilla engineered the effects in their own ways.

Correction, not fast enough for game implementation at that date. And it refers not only to lensflare effect but all effects combined.

So please lets not take stuff out of context.

Technical features of the demo are:

True HDR (High-Dynamic Range) Rendering
IBL (Image-Based Lighting)
Glare Generation (Afterimage, Bloom, Halo, Ghost, and Star)
Automatic Exposure Adjustment
Iris shaped Depth of Field blur
Realistic Motion Blur
FSAA (Full-Scene Anti-Alias)
Fresnel Effect (Specular Reflectance) etc.
The Glare, Motion Blur, Fresnel Reflection and Depth of Field effects work properly by rendering with the HDR

These effects are still expensive for real-time rendering like games, but will hopefully be of practical use in the near future.

 

[patsu]

Chromatic aberration looks like this:

KZ2 does not present that effect. Simple as that.

Why don't you tell him ? This is Nebula's link:
http://mynameismjp.wordpress.com/2009/12/15/more-post-processing-tricks-lens-flare/

To fake a chromatic aberration, Killzone 2 uses a strong orange tint for areas closer to the center of the screen and a purple tint on the periphery...

EDIT:

Correction, not fast enough for game implementation at that date. And it refers not only to lensflare effect but all effects combined.

So please lets not take stuff out of context.

I did not take it out of context. The effects are implemented together. There is no clear statement that says which is real time and which is not. The effects all stack together.

If you look at slide 29 in his GDC 2003 presentation.

Glare Effects in DirectX9

* High-Precision buffer formats
- True HDR frame buffer

* More complex pixel operations
- Gorgeous glare effects
- Still too expensive for games
- Will hopefully be of practical use in the near future

The webpage only has high level, albeit outdated, description of his work afterall.

 

[Neb]

I did not take it out of context. The effects are implemented together. There is no clear statement that says which is real time and which is not. The effects all stack together.

If you look at slide 29 in his GDC 2003 presentation.

Glare Effects in DirectX9

* High-Precision buffer formats
- True HDR frame buffer

* More complex pixel operations
- Gorgeous glare effects
- Still too expensive for games
- Will hopefully be of practical use in the near future

The webpage only has high level, albeit outdated, description of his work afterall.

And so his perfomance evaluation for use in games relates to all effects and not only the lensflare effect. Also his techdemo allows several effects to be disabled. And 'true HDR', A16B16G16R16F (FP16) does even any console game do that to this day?

Some heavy stuff in that techdemo besides lensflare effect.

EDIT: Btw disabling DOF and AA brings up perfomance to 65-70fps* which is around 50% improvement and setting lower glare quality ups framerate to 130-135fps* and lensflare effect look pretty much the same.

*7900GT @720p

 

[patsu]

And so his perfomance evaluation for use in games relates to all effects and not only the lensflare effect. Also his techdemo allows several effects to be disabled.

DOF, motion blur, etc. have separate slides though. Slide 29 is for glare/lens flare only.

As for HDR, didn't I mention we should not compare tech demoes for PC part with a full game for a console part ? There are heat and cost issues to consider.

 

[Neb]

As for HDR, didn't I mention we should not compare tech demoes for PC part with a full game for a console part ? There are heat and cost issues to consider.

The point is to show the sum of the things rendered in the techdemo are barely used if at all by games but individual parts might as they on their own and most likely in more tweaked form has adequate perfomance impact. You seem to be assuming that perfomance of the techdemo is all based around lensflare effect, if so that is wrong.

DOF, motion blur, etc. have separate slides though. Slide 29 is for glare/lens flare only.

Also glare effect is not just the lensflares, it is also the corona effect on balls, windows, scene and they are quite big and high-res.

 

[patsu]

Nope, we spoke about lens flare initially, but also covered the effects in the tech demo because there is no way for me to isolate the effects: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1438595&postcount=311

My original complain was we should not compare tech demoes with games because the web page mentioned that it has effects that are not real time. These effects will combine in the final look (to make things look great).

It's all moot anyway since it looks like they are all frame buffer post processing techniques. He implemented DOF, glare, motion-blur, ghost, star, etc. in HDR on the PC part. KZ2 implemented DOF, object-based motion blur, bloom and lens flare on the SPUs.