Technical Comparison - Killzone 2/Killzone 3 vs Crysis 2 (console version)

SMAA wasn't in Crysis 2, it was tech added later by iryoku (he has acc on b3d) and Crytek.

SMAA slides and video are here. It shows console version of SMAA too, which to my eyes (albeit tired eye) looks comparable with MLAA, if not better.

http://www.iryoku.com/smaa/
 
Yeah I didn't agree with the geometry comment regarding KZ3 either, haven't seen any video (including the one posted here), that shows a high level of geometry in the game. However I wasn't going to say anything.

The jungle level, the snowy level, the level with the MAWLR, Mobile Factory, the Mech level, and many of the multi-player maps show a very impressive amount of polygon/geometry and particle effects. You can see it much better once you play the game instead of just watching the video, trust me :smile: .



IMO the post proc effects made the blur introduced by QAA negligible. Besides, it fit the polluted aesthetics of the game world.

The flaws brought on by the MLAA stand out to me more than the blur filter applied by the QAA in KZ2. It was a less consistent overall image because of it.

The blur filter itself is a flaw - as it makes everything blurry and less crisp/sharp - and it does stand out, no less than the flaws brought on by MLAA. We're just going to have to agree that it's a matter of preference when it comes to these two AA method.



That is a pretty poor quality screenshot and it doesn't represent how KZ3 really look


Oh, and one more thing. When it comes to faces, Crysis 2 definitely has upper hand. I don't know why.

I really am curious about this part. Faces in Crysis 2? There are so much blur filter in the console version of Crysis 2 that I have a very hard time making out any kind of details on their faces.
 
TThat is a pretty poor quality screenshot and it doesn't represent how KZ3 really look
Thats direct feed screenshot from DF, can't get any better than that.

I really am curious about this part. Faces in Crysis 2? There are so much blur filter in the console version of Crysis 2 that I have a very hard time making out any kind of details on their faces.
They look more natural and less blocky. Faces in KZ3 look quite sharp, but that takes alot of smoothness of the skin. Than there is more natural lighting in Crysis 2 too giving it advantage.
http://www.play-mag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/1-031.jpg
http://www.tecmundo.com.br/imagens/2011/12/materias/23037423615162632.jpg
 
The jungle level, the snowy level, the level with the MAWLR, Mobile Factory, the Mech level, and many of the multi-player maps show a very impressive amount of polygon/geometry and particle effects. You can see it much better once you play the game instead of just watching the video, trust me :smile:.

Polycounts and sources, please :)
 
Thats direct feed screenshot from DF, can't get any better than that.

Even if that is a direct feed it still doesn't automatically represent how the game really look when you play it. Direct feed can still be badly captured.



Isn't that from the PC version? - notice the "Mouse to look around" part - because the console version sure heck doesn't look as sharp and detail when I play it. We're talking about the console version of Crysis 2 here. And really, how often do you even get to see faces in Crysis 2? The beginning scene is pretty much the only time I remember where you get to see them.
 
Even if that is a direct feed it still doesn't automatically represent how the game really look when you play it. Direct feed can still be badly captured.
It doesn't matter. Like I said, clever artists can "mask" little things like that when in motion quite easily. I think we already had this discussion about year ago. Same thing, it was just that one artist here gave overlook on poly count in KZ3.


Isn't that from the PC version? - notice the "Mouse to look around" part - because the console version sure heck doesn't look as sharp and detail when I play it. We're talking about the console version of Crysis 2 here. And really, how often do you even get to see faces in Crysis 2? The beginning scene is pretty much the only time I remember where you get to see them.
I tried to find 360 shot of the same thing, but that was deleted so I found 720p from PC. Here is similar one from DF.

http://images.eurogamer.net/articles//a/1/3/4/2/6/0/5/360_000.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/1280x-1
 
It doesn't matter. Like I said, clever artists can "mask" little things like that when in motion quite easily. I think we already had this discussion about year ago. Same thing, it was just that one artist here gave overlook on poly count in KZ3.

It matters plenty since poor quality shot - especially shots that is took at a certain angle - doesn't show how the game really look and give a an idea of the game geometry


That screen prove my point. It's blurry, dark, and muddy it isn't anywhere near as good looking as the PC version and it sure heck doesn't look better or as good as KZ3 faces.

This is a more accurate comparison. KZ3 faces clearly have significant more details and skin textures than the one in Crysis 2

http://www.lensoftruth.com/wp-content/gallery/h2ha_kz3_vs_crysis2/h2h_lens_zoom_02.jpg
h2h_lens_zoom_02.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wouldn't agree with Arwin about number of polygons in KZ3. Certain effects are very well used by artists to give impression of highly detailed geometry, but that is not the case once you see it in stills.

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/3/3/4/7/0/5/Features1.bmp.jpg

I remember Crysis 2 (with shadows) going from 0.5 to 1.2-1.3 mil polygons per frame. That goes in line with other titles on PS3 like UC2. There is certainly a limit you wouldn't want to cross with RSX and drawcalls, at least thats the impression alot of developers gave.

It is in CryEngine's documentation that you need drawcalls to stay low on PS3, and that this is something they could work on in next versions of the engine. Many other games (like Uncharted and Killzone) use the Cell to do most of the culling work, so that fewer invisible triangles reach the RSX. Killzone 3 has some interesting papers on this.

I personally find comments like 1.2-1.3 mil polygons per frame questionable for Crysis 2 on PS3 when it is running a 1024x720p resolution. For Uncharted, the data comprising a scene can be 3-4 million of triangles or more, but the SPE jobs will make sure the RSX will never see more than 1.2 million.

Interesting thing with Crysis 2 is the fact that its considerably smoother once you pass the first 40% of the game. Exactly when the game gets better looking to my surprise.

Well, going by the 'youtube' metric, it doesn't matter that much. But it is more often like that, that the later parts of a game run and work better, as they are simply made later in the process when everyone has gotten more comfortable with the capabilities of the engine.

Almost everything in Crysis 2 is looking more realistic (until you see things in motion). If you compare faces though, stuff like facial hair (any hair?) was clearly sacrificed by Crysis 2 to achieve that. And the world is decidedly 'empty' and 'static'.

Also, that's a weird screenshot you've chosen. Standing on a hill and not seeing any of the detail, in an open space where you travel through and can look very far.

Crysis 2 has great, Gran Turismo style realistic lighting and decent color quality, but on PS3, that's where most of its virtues end, imho. And as for geometry, it is hard for me to imagine that you guys don't see its running on a much tighter budget there. I'm not a pro, though, so I could be wrong.
 
SMAA wasn't in Crysis 2, it was tech added later by iryoku (he has acc on b3d) and Crytek.

SMAA slides and video are here. It shows console version of SMAA too, which to my eyes (albeit tired eye) looks comparable with MLAA, if not better.

http://www.iryoku.com/smaa/

Oops my mistake. :oops: I assumed that SMAA was the AA type used, along with TAA, in Crysis 2. Edit: Nevermind, now I remember they called it PostMSAA or something like that.

The jungle level, the snowy level, the level with the MAWLR, Mobile Factory, the Mech level, and many of the multi-player maps show a very impressive amount of polygon/geometry and particle effects. You can see it much better once you play the game instead of just watching the video, trust me :smile: .

Do you think this image has a lot of geometry?:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zjaufq.jpg

It is in CryEngine's documentation that you need drawcalls to stay low on PS3, and that this is something they could work on in next versions of the engine. Many other games (like Uncharted and Killzone) use the Cell to do most of the culling work, so that fewer invisible triangles reach the RSX. Killzone 3 has some interesting papers on this.

I personally find comments like 1.2-1.3 mil polygons per frame questionable for Crysis 2 on PS3 when it is running a 1024x720p resolution. For Uncharted, the data comprising a scene can be 3-4 million of triangles or more, but the SPE jobs will make sure the RSX will never see more than 1.2 million.

I could have sworn they do a decent amount of culling on the Cell for Crysis 2 as well.

Also, what does poly counts have to do with pixel density? Honestly question since I thought they were independent of each other.

And as for geometry, it is hard for me to imagine that you guys don't see its running on a much tighter budget there. I'm not a pro, though, so I could be wrong.

Look above in my post, same question for you that I directed towards PSman.
 
Some of this comes down to preference. If there's some particular effect you like so much that you prefer it to any conceivable thing it could be sacrificed for, like how Laa-Yosh prefers HDR and high color-space to just about anything KZ3 does, or how some people simply prefer the way certain methods of AA look, then that's what you like.

If you're trying to be "objective," about all you can do is compare (a) whether or not the game is using nearly all the resources the machine has to offer, and (b) whether or not they're using them efficiently. That requires more knowledge than most of us have. My impression from what the developers of the two games have said is that Crysis 2 still left a lot of resources untapped, whereas Killzone 3 didn't.

On the other hand, Killzone 3 was basically a corridor shooter that makes MW2 look like a sandbox game, and Crysis 2 gave you much more open spaces to play with.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you think this image has a lot of geometry?:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zjaufq.jpg
[/quote]

Definitely more than in Crysis 2.

I could have sworn they do a decent amount of culling on the Cell for Crysis 2 as well.

The Cell is only used for general CPU jobs/physics. Again, the CryEngine3 documentation stated explicitly that they currently were not culling on the CPU, and that you had to be aware of this bottleneck, with tips on how to do it.

fearsomepirate said:
Also, what does poly counts have to do with pixel density? Honestly question since I thought they were independent of each other.

As I understand it, your optimal setup would be to not feed your GPU more polygons than it has pixels to display ... Of course this is more true for RSX.

This is one of the reasons that Uncharted 2 was such a big step forwards - they really optimised this work on the SPE side, allowing some of the most detailed graphics I've seen in games so far.

On the other hand, Killzone 3 was basically a corridor shooter that makes MW2 look like a sandbox game, and Crysis 2 gave you much more open spaces to play with.

While there are definitely corridor like sections, Killzone 3 has plenty of quite big arena's, that like Crysis can be navigated in all 3 dimensions, and that you also get to play in in multi-player.
 
Definitely more than in Crysis 2.

Interesting...

I'll wait to see if PSman responds before following up with this.

The Cell is only used for general CPU jobs/physics. Again, the CryEngine3 documentation stated explicitly that they currently were not culling on the CPU, and that you had to be aware of this bottleneck, with tips on how to do it.

I'll have to look for this documentation since I lost everything I've ever saved when my laptop died. I could have sworn culling was handled on the CPU, and unless I'm mistaken, it has to be or the RSX would not be able to handle the game.

As I understand it, your optimal setup would be to not feed your GPU more polygons than it has pixels to display ... Of course this is more true for RSX.

But...UC2 exceeds the screens pixel density when it peaks at 1.2 million polys. Actually there are other games that do this IIRC. Naughty Dog was showing off how they were pushing more polys in Last of Us than there are pixels on the screen (as if it was something completely new :p)

This is one of the reasons that Uncharted 2 was such a big step forwards - they really optimised this work on the SPE side, allowing some of the most detailed graphics I've seen in games so far.

Can you define what you mean by "detailed"? Are we talking about textures or something else?

Also, IMO you need to play more games. I love UC2, and consider it one of the best looking games this gen, but while other games may not be appealing art-wise, they are as detailed IMO.
 
like how Laa-Yosh prefers HDR and high color-space to just about anything KZ3 does,

It's not about preferences, it's about skipping the foundations of the building.
Proper color precision is a necessity. See the example image, check it's histogram, the upper range is clamped down to 80% intensity on most of the image. It looks terrible as a result.
 
UC2/3 has some of the most detailed character models this gen indeed; several times as many as most other titles. Like, KZ2/3 or Gears3 are all in the 10-20k triangles range, whereas UC gets up to about 25-50k or even more in gameplay.
 
Proper color precision is a necessity.
"Proper" is a subjective term, and no, it isn't necessary. The only thing that's actually necessary for a 3D game is to have some form of meshing, some way to transform the mesh with the viewing angle, some way to project that to a 2D image, some way to draw that 2D image on the screen, and to be able to all that fast enough that the image responds to the player's inputs fast enough for him to play the game. Otherwise, this would be the first generation to have 3D games.
It looks terrible as a result.
So is "terrible." I like the way KZ 2&3 look. The fact this thread even exists is proof that not everyone agrees with you that the sacrifices you have to make on the PS3 to get HDR lighting are always worth it, every time, in every game.

The problem is the PS3 isn't all that powerful. It isn't capable of doing every imaginable graphical technique simultaneously on an arbitrarily large mesh with arbitrarily high texture resolution. Even if you find some way of doing HDR, 4xAA, full 1080p, and 60 fps at the same time in a first-person shooter (four different things that I have all seen different people insist on this forum at different times are "necessary"--although somehow, 1080p became less "necessary" as it became apparent that it's not happening this gen), let alone "proper" LOD and "proper" smooth shadowing, you're going to sacrifice quite a lot on the texture/mesh/effects side of thing and get complaints from other people. In fact, I'll bet such a game would look quite terrible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Definitely more than in Crysis 2.
I would bet beginning of Crysis 2 (when you get to NY) has more polygons to draw than anything in KZ3. That part also chugs the most from what I've experienced. There is alot of trees, and they are more complex to render than "3D boxes" like distant buildings.
 
No, the previous one. Although this one also has the same problems - high end of the histogram flattened out, highlights clamped at 220-200 intensities (particularly disturbing with the sun).
 
"Proper" is a subjective term, and no, it isn't necessary. The only thing that's actually necessary for a 3D game is to have some form of meshing, some way to transform the mesh with the viewing angle, some way to project that to a 2D image, some way to draw that 2D image on the screen, and to be able to all that fast enough that the image responds to the player's inputs fast enough for him to play the game. Otherwise, this would be the first generation to have 3D games.

So is "terrible." I like the way KZ 2&3 look. The fact this thread even exists is proof that not everyone agrees with you that the sacrifices you have to make on the PS3 to get HDR lighting are always worth it, every time, in every game.

The problem is the PS3 isn't all that powerful. It isn't capable of doing every imaginable graphical technique simultaneously on an arbitrarily large mesh with arbitrarily high texture resolution. Even if you find some way of doing HDR, 4xAA, full 1080p, and 60 fps at the same time in a first-person shooter (four different things that I have all seen different people insist on this forum at different times are "necessary"--although somehow, 1080p became less "necessary" as it became apparent that it's not happening this gen), let alone "proper" LOD and "proper" smooth shadowing, you're going to sacrifice quite a lot on the texture/mesh/effects side of thing and get complaints from other people. In fact, I'll bet such a game would look quite terrible.

Judging by Laa-Yosh's posts in this thread, his issues isn't so much that people share different opinions than his, but instead that they choose to ignore these sacrifices or prioritize what is important and not important with rendering a game when that shouldn't be the case. He's expressing what's important to him, not that he believes everyone else should feel the same.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got out of this thread.
 
"Proper" is a subjective term, and no, it isn't necessary.

While I do agree with some of your logic - that compromises had to be made since the first 3D games - I still don't think that it can be applied to KZ's color handling.
The engine performs a lot of math that's heavily dependent on precision, but fails to provide it and the result is all kinds of quantization and clamping, which are all objectively defined as image artifacts. Just because someone likes the results won't make it right.

I could list a gazillion examples from other aspects of life but they shouldn't be necessary. The issue remains the same - many people are biased about the game because it runs on their preferred console. The thread itself is nothing more than a proof to this - just as the previous one about the famous CG trailer was.


The problem is the PS3 isn't all that powerful. It isn't capable of doing every imaginable graphical technique simultaneously on an arbitrarily large mesh with arbitrarily high texture resolution.

Yes, this is true - which means that GG was overly ambitious with their goals and had to compromise image quality to reach it. Crytek compromised on resolution and frame rate; and Battlefield 3 may have other trade-offs, although it appears to me that they made the best compromises, as they didn't sacrifice neither image quality, nor content or frame rate.
 
Back
Top