Suicide bombers in Mecca

[Natoma]

I thought it was well known that Al-Jazeera is obscenely biased? This isn't news DC.

 

[pax]

AJ is the foxnews of the middle east... Its certainly a common liberal mantra ...

 

[epicstruggle]

The other problem is that there are a potential 1 billion terrorist.

That sentence in a nutshell explains what i'm trying to get across. The idea that every muslim on the planet is a potential terrorist is simply abhorrent to me, and I'm not even a muslim!

You may not truly believe that, but there are many who do epic, and that is a problem.

Now as for the stats on how many people terrorists have killed. Most of the terrorists are not the ones who do the suicide runs. They are part of the infrastructure that command the "foot soldiers". If the corrolation of deaths to # of terrorists in the world were as cut and dry and you say, we'd have tens of thousands of deaths every year from terrorism. When in fact deaths from terrorism are very low. Spectacular events such as 9/11 are thankfully very rare, which is why they have such an impact.

I hope you read my post better than your reply showed. I did try to imply that there MIGHT be people who COULD become terrorists. Now how easy/hard that would be is anyones guess. To some a slight insult/injury is enough to push over the edge. Other would never advocate violence.

However you do bring a good point that many believe that every muslim is evil. In all fairness there are muslims who believe that anyone not a muslim is also evil. The difference right now is that only muslims are going out of their country(immideate area) to conduct terror attacks (violence). I dont see hindus going over to indonesia to kill muslims. I dont see protestants going to brazil to kill cathlolics. But I do see muslims going to indonesia, US, England, and other countries to conduct violent acts.

It seems to me that the fight between moderate and extremist muslims is not being won by the majority(moderates), but by the vastly small minority(extremists).

later,
epic

 

[epicstruggle]

I thought it was well known that Al-Jazeera is obscenely biased? This isn't news DC.

So how do you tell the truth to the populace over there? Dont count on the schools or govermnent, or the clerics.

later,
epic

 

[epicstruggle]

AJ is the foxnews of the middle east... Its certainly a common liberal mantra ...

Ill grant you that foxnews is biased, but on a scale of bias, AJ is in a whole other category. I hope you can see that. Plus we do have many, many more choices in media outlets, whereas AJ is the only source of news for them.

later,
epic

 

[pax]

I agree they need more democracy and varied media... Its one of the reasons why its easy and a mistake to come to a judgement on mideast muslims... They havent had the benefit of freedom and healthy media to learn from...

 

[Natoma]

I hope you read my post better than your reply showed. I did try to imply that there MIGHT be people who COULD become terrorists. Now how easy/hard that would be is anyones guess. To some a slight insult/injury is enough to push over the edge. Other would never advocate violence.

The point is, you stated:

The other problem is that there are a potential 1 billion terrorist.

There is no explaining away of that comment. You believe that it is within each Muslim on this planet the potential to become a terrorist. The statement goes far beyond the abstract idea that within every human being exists the potential for killing and violence. It specifically singles out a particular demographic. Considering your religious background, this doesn't exactly surprise me when speaking on Islam.

However you do bring a good point that many believe that every muslim is evil. In all fairness there are muslims who believe that anyone not a muslim is also evil. The difference right now is that only muslims are going out of their country(immideate area) to conduct terror attacks (violence). I dont see hindus going over to indonesia to kill muslims. I dont see protestants going to brazil to kill cathlolics. But I do see muslims going to indonesia, US, England, and other countries to conduct violent acts.

Kashmir and India. Hindus kill and terrorize Muslims in both places. Especially in India where Muslims are in the vast minority. And lets not even bring up the archaic caste system when speaking about religions that espouse tolerance and love and education. Because under those tenets, Hinduism fails abysmally when compared to Islam.

It seems to me that the fight between moderate and extremist muslims is not being won by the majority(moderates), but by the vastly small minority(extremists).

There is no such thing as extremist muslims. Those who engage in terrorist activities in the name of Islam are not true muslims. Just as those who engage in terrorist activities in the name of Hinduism are not true Hindus. The same for extremist "christians".

The fight is between the civilized world and the nut cases who would do us harm. I wish people would do well to remember who the real enemy is here, and not blame 1/5th of the world's population.

 

[Natoma]

AJ is the foxnews of the middle east... Its certainly a common liberal mantra ...

Ill grant you that foxnews is biased, but on a scale of bias, AJ is in a whole other category. I hope you can see that. Plus we do have many, many more choices in media outlets, whereas AJ is the only source of news for them.

later,
epic

Actually with the proliferation of satellite television, you'd be surprised how many news sources people in the middle east are exposed to.

 

[Natoma]

I thought it was well known that Al-Jazeera is obscenely biased? This isn't news DC.

So how do you tell the truth to the populace over there? Dont count on the schools or govermnent, or the clerics.

later,
epic

I think you'll find the "populace" is more in the know than you give them credit for. It is the "populace" that is forcing change from within in Iran. It is the "populace" who have begun protests in Saudi Arabia, despite the ban on them.

It's a start.

 

[StefanS]

I am sorry that I am joining so late in the discussion: Some replies to things said before...

It isn't an attack, it is an observation. On the matter of Catholics... I don't think that there is any question they denounce the acts of terrorism but it isn't Catholics that have declared a Jihad against anyone.

In fact they have done. In 871 (or something like that) pope Urbanus did declare a holy war to "free the holy land of Jew and Muslims". This led to several crusades...

Did you forget the IRA and now the Real IRA all of a sudden people? When will these double standards stop? Never obviously.

It's not important what I think as an individual but people need to wake up a little and realise they are blaming and pointing the finger in the wrong direction. When someone comes up and blames terrorism on Muslim nations but doesnt look at what he is doing in his own backyard then I have no way to change these narrowminded beliefs. I am a Muslim but I feel in no way responsible for ANY terrorist act. Nor should any Catholic (like pascal) for the atrocities commited by the IRA. Since a lot of you have a problem with doing that at the moment I will continue my struggle to try and educate where I can.

Sorry, but there's a huge difference between the IRA (main arm, not RIRA or Provisional IRA) and Al-Quaeda and its not their religion.
A) The IRA has never taken their fight to other countries
B) All the IRA did fight for was a separate Northern Ireland
C) IRA's main arm always warned people of its car bombs and gave official forces time to ensure civilists would be safe.
D) IRA killings were aimed at officials (police, military, politicians)
E) had a political arm since the 70ies, so they were interested in using legimate means as well
list could go on...

This is not to defend IRA... They're just not comparable...

 

[StefanS]

However you do bring a good point that many believe that every muslim is evil. In all fairness there are muslims who believe that anyone not a muslim is also evil. The difference right now is that only muslims are going out of their country(immideate area) to conduct terror attacks (violence). I dont see hindus going over to indonesia to kill muslims. I dont see protestants going to brazil to kill cathlolics. But I do see muslims going to indonesia, US, England, and other countries to conduct violent acts.

Kashmir and India. Hindus kill and terrorize Muslims in both places. Especially in India where Muslims are in the vast minority. And lets not even bring up the archaic caste system when speaking about religions that espouse tolerance and love and education. Because under those tenets, Hinduism fails abysmally when compared to Islam.

Kashmir is entirely different topic, since a part of it is occupied by Pakistan and a part of it is occupied by India. Fact is that the population of Kashmir wants neither of them. Kashimiris are tolerant and used to living together for centuries. Its the occupying forces that aren't ...

 

[StefanS]

I thought it was well known that Al-Jazeera is obscenely biased? This isn't news DC.

So how do you tell the truth to the populace over there? Dont count on the schools or govermnent, or the clerics.

later,
epic

I think you'll find the "populace" is more in the know than you give them credit for. It is the "populace" that is forcing change from within in Iran. It's a start.

The Iranian reform movement definitely deserves much credit and praise...

 

[pax]

Quite a bit wrong on the IRA there Hup. They most certainly targeted and killed civilians. They carried out attacks in England which is another country. They were associated with terror groups in other countries even as far as Colombia...

 

[StefanS]

Quite a bit wrong on the IRA there Hup. They most certainly targeted and killed civilians. They carried out attacks in England which is another country. They were associated with terror groups in other countries even as far as Colombia...

A) As far as the Brits are concerned England is not another country.
B) name the car bombs that targeted civilians and were carried out by the main arm of the IRA...

 

[pax]

Well I cant name them but the bomb at the financial district of London wasnt a police or military target... many bombs in England were in markets and commercial areas. Now of course not all bombs were claimed by the IRA and it did have splinter groups. I just dont think the IRA was any nicer than al quaeda. Not the same objectives no but certainly there were elements who fantasized destroying britain...

 

[StefanS]

I just dont think the IRA was any nicer than al quaeda. Not the same objectives no but certainly there were elements who fantasized destroying britain...

I am not thinking the IRA is nicer; killing people is not an ethical way. However, the IRA has an official and legitimate party.
A) Thus it is a lot easier to talk to them
B) Thus they believe in change from within the system
C) Thus their goals changed into more realistic aims (autonomous government of Northern Ireland).

 

[Fred]

I agree with Epic, the fundamentalist Muslims of the world are worse than the IRA and the Hindus and pretty much all the rest of the terrorist groups in the world. Obviously because there is more of them.

I've been to the Middle East before, and while its true that a majority of Muslims are completely sober and rational, there is an undercurrent of hate that exists there and its not as small as the PC culture likes to admit. Not even close unfortunately.

The sword of Islam is still a lingering concept, indeed perhaps arguably even extoled within the church doctrines, there are passages in the Koran that are as sick, absolutist and warped as some of the really nasty parts in the Old Testament.

 

[Snyder]

I think that is the discrepancy really Tahir. My impression is that the movement within Islam is far greater then a mere 0.01% of the Muslim population.

It is? Do you have a source for this? You are quick to demand sources from others - so you should back up your claims as well.

I am regretful for that perception but there is a matter of cause for it.

Well...maybe the western media isn't quite without blame here? I can't remember any of the denouncements, anti-terrorist statements of Muslims etc... getting significant media coverage on CNN&Co. (If I'm wrong - please don't hesitate to correct me! )

 

[Sabastian]

I really by now never would have assumed that there was so much ignorance with regards to Muslim Anti-Americanism. I regret having to do this Tahir.

Top Muslim Clerics Endorse Suicide Attacks
A Challenge to the United States?
Colonel (Res.) Jonathan Fighel
ICT Researcher
On January 9th, top representatives of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, joined a religious convention headed by the General Secretary of the Hizballah, Hassan Nasser Alla in Beirut. The conference was attended by Muslim clerics from Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority, Sudan, The Arab Emirates, Morocco, Algeria and Jordan. The next day, the participants issued an official declaration in support of suicide bombings against Israel, stating that “the suicide attacks against Israel are legitimate according to the Koran.â€￾ Suicide attacks, they stated, are “a strategic weapon which enable us to regain the strategic balance with the Zionist enemyâ€￾(1)

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=424

Leading Egyptian Islamic Clerics on Jihad Against U.S.
Troops in Iraq: March - July 2003

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...df+islamic+Jihad+clerics+Egypt&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.jihadonline.net/index.php

Experts say that obvious Indonesian cooperation with the United States might spark large-scale demonstrations that could undermine the current government, but some developments hint at some U.S.-Indonesian cooperation.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...ml+islamic+Jihad+clerics+Egypt&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Since 1979, oil-rich Iran under a clerical dictatorship has been the progenitor of Islamic terrorism directed against the United States, Israel and the governments of many Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars annually for propaganda and in support of terrorists such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and the Palestine Liberation Organization, Iran has been co-responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, including more than 1,500 Americans. These attacks include the 1983 truck bombs in Lebanon that destroyed the U.S. Embassy and later killed 241 Marines in their barracks as well as the 1996 attack against U.S. personnel in Saudi Arabia.

After September 11, 2001, Iran held a series of terrorist summits in which it openly increased its budget for Hamas and other terrorist organizations while also providing additional millions for the families of homicide bombers who would kill civilians. Iran also publicly announced training for terrorists volunteering to strike in America and for the destruction of civilian passenger aircraft with shoulder-fired missiles. Iran is complicit in the recent upsurge in violence against Israel, and Iran's leaders have said that, when they have nuclear weapons, they will be ready to "annihilate" the Jewish state.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...tml+islamic+Jihad+clerics+iran&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Arabs celibrate massacre at the world trade center

http://www.netreach.net/~zoa/newsLinks/shockers/m58.htm

Hamas, Egypt Group Back Taliban, Urge Muslim Unity
by Nidal Al-Mughrabi, Reuters
Posted: Friday, September 14, 2001 at 12:56 PM CT

GAZA (Reuters) - A senior official of the Islamist militant group Hamas, echoing calls by Taliban clerics in Afghanistan, urged Muslims on Friday to unite against any U.S. retaliation for the terror attacks in New York and Washington.
In Cairo, the spokesman of Egypt's largest Muslim fundamentalist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, defended the Taliban's threat of revenge for any U.S. action against Afghanistan and urged Washington to show restraint.

http://www.atour.com/news/international/20010914b.html

Sponsoring Terrorism: Syria and Islamic Jihad

http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_s1.htm

Sowing seeds of hatred

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/71199p-66134c.html

Saudi Schools Teaching Hate

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/06/60minutes/main521056.shtml

Schools of Hate

http://www.jayreding.com/archives/000446.php

SPREADING HATE
Pakistan's Muslim Schools Offer a Dark View of U.S.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...hools+Of+Hate+pakistan&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8

Hate Mongers , SERMONS FROM THE MOSQUES

http://www.copts.net/detail.asp?id=361

A mass of Arab anti American propaganda on this link.
http://server12.castup.net/mfa/anti_american_incitement.htm

In Praise of Bin Laden
Some Saudi Schools Teach Students to Hate the U.S., Love Osama

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/saudi_teachers021210.html

Terrorists Among Us - The Jihad in America (2001)

http://philologos.org/guide/videos/jihad.htm

Hate preaching cleric jailed A Muslim cleric who urged followers to kill non-believers, Americans, Hindus and Jews has been jailed for nine years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

ADL Says Anti-Semitic and Anti-American Reports in Arab and Muslim Media "Foment Anger And Hate"

http://www.adl.org/presrele/ASInt_13/3965_13.asp

Arab leaders try to contain anti-American feelings after Iraq attack

http://www.valdosta.edu/spec/20010222/news9.html

Terrorists Find Allies on Campus
Students: U.S. 'Had It Coming'; 'It Is Our Fault'

http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2001/oct_2001_1.html


http://qsi.cc/blog/archives/000120.html

I can find plenty of information to back up my claims. Would you like more?

 

[kyleb]

I really by now never would have assumed that there was so much ignorance with regards to Muslim Anti-Americanism. I regret having to do this Tahir.

oh come on, it looks to me like you reveled in the task.