Suicide bombers in Mecca

[Tahir2]

And Natoma your definition of Jihad is great, thanks but there is the lesser Jihad as well which is a call to war. This must not be forgotten either. The flipside is defence when your life or land is at risk.

The lesser war, or offensive war is not possible full stop in this day and age. This part of the Jihad is basically dead at this time due to the fact that there is no legitimate Muslim ruler (A Caliph basically) to initialise an offensive war.

And I am not of the belief that attacking another state (whoever and whatever the target) is legitimate due to the oppression of certain Muslim states.

A Jihad needs to be declared and last I checked NO muslim nation has declared Jihad against America.. or offensive war.

If it was declared, suicide bombling is not a legitimate weapon/or tactic to use in any condition. Nor is attacking civilians, bystanders, women, children, elderely, religious persons and certains types of buildings are out of bounds too. Harming nature unnecessarily is illegal as well, including oil wells, water wells etc.

There are loads of rules of engagement for Jihad.

Let me re-iterate - an offensive Jihad is not possible at this time nor has it been declared by any ruler. The only legitimate person to declare an offensive Jihad does not exist and has not done so for almost 80 years.

 

[Sabastian]

I understand more about Jihad then you think. Again I do apologize for the improper use of the word. I will point out though however that Jihad is trying to be invoked by certain terrorist organizations and their voices are heard in rather fertile ground from what I can tell. The best way to stop such a movement is from within but I do not hear the voices Muslims opposing the extremist at all, in fact I don’t know of any. Muslims are not doing enough to stop these idiots from high jacking Islam. I am regretful of it but that is the way I see it.

 

[Tahir2]

No Sabastian the fact is that you are not hearing them. Also the "I know more about this than you think" are usually famous last words...

Do you want some denouncements? There are plenty to choose from. The reason you have not heard them is pretty alarming too and proves the point that it is better to leave the world black and white to most people.

If you can understand this then we can move on - if not we are stuck to the bit where you said "I know more.."

http://www.mcb.org.uk/ulama.html

It is a criminal act to take the life of a human being without due process of law. The killing of innocent people whether done by individuals or state institutions is condemned in Islam.


On this basis the meeting absolutely condemned the atrocities in America on 11 September which resulted in the loss of almost 7000 lives.

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

“We are grief-stricken at these horrifying events,†they wrote; “the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated.â€
In a lengthy statement, professors from major colleges and universities throughout the country expressed their compassion for grieving family members while also decrying the increase in violence against American Muslims this past week. “Anger and frustration are completely understandable and shared by us all,†they wrote “yet that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes.â€

http://www.islamfortoday.com/khan09.htm

I am writing this to make it clear that there are Muslims in America and in the world who despise and condemn extremists and have nothing to do with Bin Laden and those like him for whom killing constitutes worship.

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2002-09/15/article15.shtml

In a fatwa to IslamOnline, Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, the Vice-President of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, said that “To hijack a civil airplane in which women, children, senior citizens, Muslims, and non-Muslims are traveling is forbidden, because this terrorizes people, and this is forbidden except in times of war, and only against fighters.

“If we add that the hijackers used these airplanes full of civilians to hit the World Trade Center in New York City, where there are thousands of workers, all of them non-fighters, in which there were women and senior citizens, and Muslims… we can then see the magnitude of the violation of Shari’a that the hijackers have fallen into. This is especially true since they meant to kill civilians, and these civilians were not killed in cross-fire,†he added.

Even a prominent Wahhabi/Salafi scholar speaks out against this episode (I don't even agree with most of their claims especially those against Sufism and Tassawuf but just for reference):

http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/sept11.htm

Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee is one of the more senior scholars of the city of Medina, Saudi Arabia. Shortly after the events of September 11, he was asked by a group of Salafi youth in Toronto, Canada, to advise the Muslims as to what their position should be regarding the terrorist attacks. After a short preliminary speech, the lecturer at the Islamic University of Medina recited the following verse from the Quran:

"Thus We have made you a just and most balanced nation, that you may be witnesses over mankind (on the Day of Judgement), and the Messenger be a witness over you."

"Hence, Islam is a balanced and moderate way, and it does not enter into negligence on the one hand, nor exaggeration or extremism on the other. It is balanced in between (these two extremes)… In addition, Islam encourages equity and justice amidst both Muslims and non-Muslims.

"Verily, Allah enjoins justice, the doing of good, and giving to kith and kin; He forbids all shameful and prohibited deeds, and oppression. He admonishes you, that you may take heed."

(Quite a few on this page)

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author:
“Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred.â€
Harun Yahya, “Islam Denounces Terrorism,†http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader:
“The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.â€
“Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi,†http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm

Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author:
“Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.â€
“The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists,†http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm

Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims:
“We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.â€
Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001, http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html

15 American Muslim organizations:
“We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.â€
Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001, http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm

American Muslim Political Coordination Council:
“American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.â€
http://capwiz.com/cair/issues/alert/?alertid=49818&type=CU&azip=

Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance:
“These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families.â€
http://www.amaweb.org/AMA Condemns.html

Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader:
“Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.â€
San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001, http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm

Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author:
“Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the Wahhabi sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral.â€
“Making the World Safe for Terrorism,†September 30, 2001, http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm

I posted this in another thread but it was ignored. Keyword is IGNORED. And there are other denouncements but they are not covered by the media in any way and you get the point. Someone getting blown up grabs more headlines and sells newspapers far more effectively than a denouncement. Also not covering denouncements makes it easier for someone to claim: "The best way to stop such a movement is from within but I do not hear the voices Muslims opposing the extremist at all, in fact I don’t know of any."

At the very least you do know of some of the voices that oppose the extremists. Some of them are leaders, presidents, PM's etc too of Muslim nations. I expect you to ignore these as well but maybe you will think twice before you say "I don't know of any" since you know of some now.

 

[pascal]

Very good and clarifying posts Tahir

 

[Sabastian]

Show me a similar list from countries link Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc... Then your label of ignorance will be accepted. The problem is you won't find lists of Middle East Muslims denouncing the terrorist at all, nothing remotely close to what you are finding in Canada and most ironically America. Give me a list of 50 well standing clerics in the middle east that are clearly denouncing terrorism to their people, then I would label myself as someone who is not informed. 50 out of all Arabic nations ought to be easy enough if the movement against terrorism is only small squeal. Your links to these Canadian and American clerics are fine and dandy but we don't see terrorism coming from these people do we?

 

[Tahir2]

At first I thought you had not heard any. Now you have - you would like more. Fine I will try my best Sabastian.

 

[Sabastian]

At first I thought you had not heard any. Now you have - you would like more. Fine I will try my best Sabastian.

The demographic is important to me, sorry if it is a nuisance.

 

[pascal]

There are extremists everywhere.

I remenber that the Israeli prime minister and war hero Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Jewish extremist (1995). And the peace process crumbled without Rabin.

 

[Tahir2]

“The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter’s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. “It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks,†he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distancein the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism.â€

League of Arab States:
Jordan, UAE, Bahrain, Tunisia, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Somalia and Djibouti.

Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey:
“Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated.â€

A few denouncments from Qatar, Malaysia, Oman even Yasser Arafat of Palestine, here is a quote:

1- The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort. In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances.


2- The Conference, proceeding from the provisions of the OIC Convention on Combating International Terrorism, reaffirmed the willingness of its Member States to effectively contribute to an international collective effort, under the umbrella of the United Nations as the forum where all States of the world are represented, to define the phenomenon of terrorism in all its forms and without selectiveness or double standards and contribute also to addressing its causes, eradicating its roots and achieving international security and stability.

http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/All Download/frmex9.htm

President Muhammad Khatami of Iran:
“[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a goup that have volunteerily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.â€

http://www.president.ir/cronicnews/1380/8008/800818/800818.htm#b3

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was “horrified†by these “barbaric ... crimesâ€:
“Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. ... Islamists [not Islamists but Muslims..bad translation - Tahir]who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.â€

There are more, of course and I remember President Musharif of Pakistan condemning the acts too and actively opposing terrorist activities as well as promising to do more (and he has done).

Sabastian is this not enough condemnation for you either - from the 'right' countries? I don't want you to admit to the world you are 'ignorant' - that is not my point. You are not exactly ignorant either. I just would like you to open your eyes a little and except the fact that there is "more to know" than you know already and also to realise that your views are in fact a potential danger.

I hope this is enough, if not there is absolutely nothing I can do to go any further with this line of the discussion.

 

[Sabastian]

I know that the list is impossible to find. I commend your efforts, but I do not equate the official governmental stance on these matters an actual qualification that Muslim clerics in the Middle East are denouncing terrorism vigorously. They simply are not. I sympathize with you in your defense of your culture/religion but it does not change the reality that terrorist mentality runs wild throughout Arabia being fueled by Islamic fundamentalism and the Jihad movement. Until you produce the impossible list of 50 clerics in these predominantly Islamic countries (Which is an extremely small number considering the vastness of Islam BTW.) then indeed it is clear there is little going on within Islamic cultures to stifle terrorist sentiment. Sorry Tahir there is not enough being done from within Islam to suppress this movement which tarnishes your religion greatly.

 

[pascal]

Sorry Sabastian, I dont agree with you. You are fast to label people the way you want.

If you really want your 50 list than go and use google to find it. Then find a 50 list of Catholic priests that are against terrorism (I am Catholic).

I do not sympathize with your atack on others culture/religion.

 

[Tahir2]

I thought this would be your reply.

I can never explain to you that what you say is actually the reverse. You want some clerics now to denounce terrorism when I offered you the leaders.

You know I can do that quite simply with a few phone calls if you like. But the undertone of your reply is ample evidence to me what you really mean. It's not clerics that you want now.

Even if I gave you the clerics (and trust me I can), of course that wont be enough for you either, you would set me another goal to meet.

Sabastian I can NEVER fulfill your desire for some sort of peace and evidence to make you happy. It doesnt exist not because it's not there, but because you will reject it.

You've made your mind up. The world IS black and white.

One day maybe you will open your eyes but the sad fact is that you are not alone. Most Americans think like you do. If you want the answer there is no point looking on the outside anymore and no point in me trying to help you out, it's up to you now Sabastian. I hope you make the right choice tomorrow.

 

[Sabastian]

Sorry Sabastian, I dont agree with you. You are fast to label people the way you want.

If you really want your 50 list than go and use google to find it. Then find a 50 list of Catholic priests that are against terrorism (I am Catholic).

I do not sympathize with your atack on others culture/religion.

It isn't an attack, it is an observation. On the matter of Catholics... I don't think that there is any question they denounce the acts of terrorism but it isn't Catholics that have declared a Jihad against anyone.

 

[Sabastian]

I thought this would be your reply.

I can never explain to you that what you say is actually the reverse. You want some clerics now to denounce terrorism when I offered you the leaders.

You know I can do that quite simply with a few phone calls if you like. But the undertone of your reply is ample evidence to me what you really mean. It's not clerics that you want now.

Even if I gave you the clerics (and trust me I can), of course that wont be enough for you either, you would set me another goal to meet.

Sabastian I can NEVER fulfill your desire for some sort of peace and evidence to make you happy. It doesnt exist not because it's not there, but because you will reject it.

You've made your mind up. The world IS black and white.

One day maybe you will open your eyes but the sad fact is that you are not alone. Most Americans think like you do. If you want the answer there is no point looking on the outside anymore and no point in me trying to help you out, it's up to you now Sabastian. I hope you make the right choice tomorrow.

I am Canadian by the way. I thought that you might become upset by my observations and I am sorry for that to a degree. Again I do sympathize with you but there is no evidence at all suggesting that indeed there is a strong movement against terrorism and acts of terrorism from within Islam in Arabic countries. None .... zero ...... zip. All I did was make a simple observation and there is no evidence that I know of to suggest that it is incorrect. It still is not up to me and Muslims must make a far greater effort to stop this movement from within their own religion, in fact it has little to nothing to do with me at all. Yes if you did produce 50 well known clerics, in the mass of the tens of thousands that there are, in Arabic countries I still would have been dissatisfied as it would not be enough. But I would never make another comment with regards to the matter again.

 

[Silent_One]

Tahir wrote:

And Silent_One I am shocked and saddened. Does that bother you?

Bother me? No, not at all. You mis-understand. You said "this is very surprising and and hugely shocking", and I asked why? Atfer all, this has happened before. And yes it is sad. Very sad. But I don't find it shocking or surprising that it has happened , nor where or when.

 

[epicstruggle]

Out of 1 Billion practicing muslims, there are maybe 3000 terrorists who say they practice. 3000 in 1 Billion. That's why I really hate it when people tar and feather your religion based on the actions of those fake muslims. I may not agree with religion in general, but I also don't like seeing an entire people wrongfully branded as evil terrorists, or supporting such actions.

How do you figure that there are only 3000 terrorists!!! I wish threads here werent deletable, but a few months ago i found a poll that found a very high percentage of muslims would accept (massive) violence to get to some goal. This in countries like pakistan, indonesia,... If i recall correctly a rough estimate was like 200-300 million people would accept suicide bombers, and general violence.

Now thats not to say that they all would become terrorists, *but* that 3000 figure seems extremely low. As a layman, depending on your defenition of terrorist ,I would estimate well over 100,000 thousand terrorists(with a loose definition).

On another point, how about closing all the schools(matras?) that teach violence and hatred of the west in saudia arabia. Doesnt seem like thats asking for much. I hear that many have been closed, but not all.

later,
epic

 

[epicstruggle]

i guess before someone jumps down my throat, i should explain that 100,000 figure contains many of the exregime from iraq. Minus those people, and i figure about 50,000.

later,
epic

 

[Humus]

I wish threads here werent deletable, but a few months ago i found a poll that found a very high percentage of muslims would accept (massive) violence to get to some goal. This in countries like pakistan, indonesia,... If i recall correctly a rough estimate was like 200-300 million people would accept suicide bombers, and general violence.

Well, such polls do not need to mean much. Polls showed that > 50% of the US citizens supported nuking afganistan shortly after 9/11, which is way worse than any terrorist action ever and certainly I wouldn't conclude that this would mean there's a lot of terrorists in the US. You could make the same argument about everyone who supported the war against Iraq too. Lot of people that supported the use of violence to reach some goals.

 

[epicstruggle]

Well, such polls do not need to mean much. Polls showed that > 50% of the US citizens supported nuking afganistan shortly after 9/11, which is way worse than any terrorist action ever and certainly I wouldn't conclude that this would mean there's a lot of terrorists in the US. You could make the same argument about everyone who supported the war against Iraq too. Lot of people that supported the use of violence to reach some goals.

yes shortly after 9/11 people did want to lash back. the same poll today will give you a completly different conclusion. HOWEVER, over the last few years hatred by a minority of muslims, has been fermanting. The movement wants to create muslim states that are ruled by the sharia(sp?). This movement is very violent.

Look i dont try to pass my self off as some religious expert, so if i my facts are wrong please correct me. But im confident that tahir will agree that there are people who want to make govermnents follow a very strict version of muslim law. Look at what happened earlier this year in northern nigeria. The sharia courts wanted to stone to death a women who was having a child out of wedlock. Unless you believe in that kinda thing, its my opinion that this is barbaric.

anyways, polls can be manipulated to show almost anything. But hasnt Indonesia, Pakistan, and other mainly muslim countries turned more and more violent over the last few years. Maybe the youth of those countries are feeling frustrated that their govermnent isnt listening to the populace. It could be other reasons, but today, this year, and for the immediate future religious violence will continue to come from those who believe they are followers of islam,whether you believe they are or not.

later,
epic

 

[pax]

Theres plenty reasons for them to be angry... corrupt govs, poverty where they have huge wealth. Residual cultural impressions from past colonialism...

Its both understandable and normal as in the west weve had long lasting repercussions from bad series of events... I dont think its helpful to lay blame all at the feet of muslims. Blame is best shared where it merits... Anyone trying to lay blame at muslims feet only is failing to see modern history and even current situations...