Suicide bombers in Mecca

[Sabastian]

Theres plenty reasons for them to be angry... corrupt govs, poverty where they have huge wealth. Residual cultural impressions from past colonialism...

Its both understandable and normal as in the west weve had long lasting repercussions from bad series of events... I dont think its helpful to lay blame all at the feet of muslims. Blame is best shared where it merits... Anyone trying to lay blame at muslims feet only is failing to see modern history and even current situations...

Pax what I am saying is that there is little going on from within Islam particularly in Arabic nations to stifle the terrorist sentiment. As such if Islam finds this supposed fringe movement distasteful then they ought to vigorously denounce what they are preaching and relegate the terrorists to being a fringe group. This would benefit Islam and keep the religion from being marked by these groups. They have to stifle the Jihad calling, it is Islamic therefore it is Islam who's name is in jeopardy consequently they are obliged to a degree to shut down this movement from within their own ranks. But in Arabic countries that is not happening. They need to strongly denounce the terrorist and by that I mean more then simply making one time statements with regards to certain acts of terrorism, they have to attack the beliefs and ideas behind it on a daily bases until these fringe movements are indeed extreme fringe movements.

 

[epicstruggle]

in my opinion, the two biggest problem are the hate schools, and the extremely biased tv stations. If you think fox news is biased, this takes it to a whole other level. Whoever controls the tv, controls the minds of the populace.

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

People like Sabastian will believe anything they want to believe about the "Evil doing" islam worshippers no matter what is presented to them. Sad.

epic, 3000 is the CIAs rough estimate for how many terrorists remain at large in the world today. They estimated roughly 10,000 to 15,000 before we destroyed many of their camps and personnel in the Afghan war, as well as the crackdown on terorrism around the world. Many of those people are actually being held in Guantanemo atm.

 

[RussSchultz]

Natoma, your appraisal of Sabastian is simpleminded and falacious.

He has said nothing about "Islam worshippers".

He's talking about militant Islamists--those who want to spread Islam with the "sword", and those that openly or even tacitly support them.

Burying your your head in the sand and saying there's only 3000 people out there out to get you won't change the bigotry in the world. Spend a few minutes of your time to look for yourself. The hatred is there, there is a large population of the Islamic world and leaders that are vehemently anti-US, anti-west, and espouse violence and hatred toward the west, Jews, Israel, western values, etc.

But thats not to say that muslims are evil people.

 

[Tahir2]

Sorry Sabastian, I dont agree with you. You are fast to label people the way you want.

If you really want your 50 list than go and use google to find it. Then find a 50 list of Catholic priests that are against terrorism (I am Catholic).

I do not sympathize with your atack on others culture/religion.

It isn't an attack, it is an observation. On the matter of Catholics... I don't think that there is any question they denounce the acts of terrorism but it isn't Catholics that have declared a Jihad against anyone.

Did you forget the IRA and now the Real IRA all of a sudden people? When will these double standards stop? Never obviously.

It's not important what I think as an individual but people need to wake up a little and realise they are blaming and pointing the finger in the wrong direction. When someone comes up and blames terrorism on Muslim nations but doesnt look at what he is doing in his own backyard then I have no way to change these narrowminded beliefs. I am a Muslim but I feel in no way responsible for ANY terrorist act. Nor should any Catholic (like pascal) for the atrocities commited by the IRA. Since a lot of you have a problem with doing that at the moment I will continue my struggle to try and educate where I can.

Oh and RussSchulz Sabastian has did inadvertantely attack the whole of Islam, not militant Islam, terrorist Islam, Jihadist Islam or whatever else you want to call it.

 

[Natoma]

Natoma, your appraisal of Sabastian is simpleminded and falacious.

He has said nothing about "Islam worshippers".

He's talking about militant Islamists--those who want to spread Islam with the "sword", and those that openly or even tacitly support them.

Funny. That's not what I and a few others here are taking away from what he's saying. Now unless he's the most inarticulate person in the world, I see no other way to take his commentary. I mean, did he or did he not state that "muslim culture" seems to support terrorism? If he makes a comment about the "christian culture", how else could I construe that to mean anything other than christianity worshippers?

Burying your your head in the sand and saying there's only 3000 people out there out to get you won't change the bigotry in the world. Spend a few minutes of your time to look for yourself. The hatred is there, there is a large population of the Islamic world and leaders that are vehemently anti-US, anti-west, and espouse violence and hatred toward the west, Jews, Israel, western values, etc.

But thats not to say that muslims are evil people.

If you have an issue with that number then take it up with the CIA. Those are the people who are actively involved in terrorism according to their estimates, down from 10K - 15K pre-9/11. I made that point quite clear, and stressed it in the context that there are roughly 1 Billion practicing muslims in the world, i.e., terrorist organizations and terrorism are but a drop in the bucket compared with the religion as a whole.

As for the hatred that you speak of, there is apparently a large population of the christian world and leaders who are vehemently anti-Anything not Christian and anti-Anything Not US. Just talk to any of the great swaths of redneck hicks in the southern USA or Pat Buchanan or the "good" Jerry Falwell or Reverend Phelps.

But thats not to say that christians are evil people.

 

[Sabastian]

No Tahir, my observation is that Islam is being damaged by the terrorist. I do not have to attack Islam, the terrorist are doing a fine job sullying it. There is not enough denouncement coming from within Islam to stifle the terrorist movement particularly in Muslim countries. With these new attacks we can see now that there is an internal schism from within the Islamic culture. There are some real serious issues developing from within your religion Tahir. This movement from Arabic/Islamic cultures must be put down. I say the best way to stop the radical elements is to kill their ideas from within Islam. Indeed if Muslims believe that these elements are radical fringe groups then Muslims ought to snuff out there flame. Soon, mayhap they already have, Muslims will start to feel the edge of this supposed fringe group against themselves. When will Islam stand against these monsters? Is it that the entire Mid East the equivalent of the IRA? That would suggest a rather serious issue for other Muslims who disagree with their Arabic roots, unless of course there is less disagreement in reality then is given credence too.

 

[Natoma]

Osama Bin Laden and his ilk are as much Muslims as Hitler and his ilk were Christians.

Get it through your head already. They are not true Muslims. If you truly understand the religion, you will see that for yourself. They can't hijack a religion if you take the time to understand what it's about. They can only hijack a religion of people believe they are representative of that religion.

And that belief comes from a lack of education on the subject. Tahir could no more stop Osama Bin Laden's movement anymore than a christian could stop Pat Robertson's anti-muslim movement or anymore than I could stop Al Sharpton from saying any of the idiotic things he says regarding blacks and race in general.

 

[Sabastian]

Funny. That's not what I and a few others here are taking away from what he's saying. Now unless he's the most inarticulate person in the world, I see no other way to take his commentary. I mean, did he or did he not state that "muslim culture" seems to support terrorism? If he makes a comment about the "christian culture", how else could I construe that to mean anything other than christianity worshippers?

There is a colossal correlation to Islam in the terrorist sentiment and you can easily refine the sentiment to the Arabic demography which is widely known to be Islamic. You can deny it all you like but it does not change the reality of it. It does not mean that they absolutely must take the path of hatred but rather it is the one a great many of them are taking to an alarmingly large degree. How much is it? Clearly it is substantial. Consider Bin Laden and how hundreds of thousands of Muslims from that region idolize the murdering scum bag? But he is symptomatic of a much larger condition from within Islam. Islam is due for some very serious internal self reflection and the outcome of which is most important. They must revise the way they see their own problems and stop blaming it all on America. That would be the first step that Islam could do to revitalize the integrity of their religion to the place of reverence that Muslims so much want.

 

[Tahir2]

Sabastian I honestly and respectfully suggest that you try and look after your own interests first.

You don't realise it but you do attack Islam as a whole with blanket statements and false beliefs that all Muslims = anti whatever. You state it quite a few times within this very thread. Even when a tree falls in the middle of nowhere it still makes a noise.

I would just like people to tone down the blanket statements and the patronising statements made at times, nothing else. Like I said earlier there is nothing I can do to show you what you want so I suggest you go look for yourself. Perhaps a trip to the middle east will do you a world of good and maybe you will realise muslims are not that obsessed with America. I mean you guys to the rest of the world are not that important in day to day life - even in England which is where I come from.

Anyway here is what your Commander-In-Chief keeps saying much to the annoyance of many of his adminstration:

President George W. Bush finds himself in a rare disagreement with conservatives in his party over his efforts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion that is not responsible for anti-American terrorism.

In a score of speeches since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the president has called for tolerance of Muslims, describing Islam as "a faith based upon peace and love and compassion" and a religion committed to "morality and learning and tolerance."

 

[Natoma]

Agreed Tahir. And one of the very few times I've been proud of our current President.

 

[Sabastian]

Tahir, Bush is calling for the sane portion of Islam to prevail. I am hopeful that Muslims hear his words and that it will make a difference as well.

 

[Tahir2]

Aye Sabastian - I am saying that the 'sane portion' of Islam is 99.999% and I am trying to stress that you cannot hold the entire culture and way of life accountable for the acts of the very few as I have stated I wouldnt do the same to you. Example just because Pat Robertson makes silly statements in the name of Christianity I do not blame Christianity for his fallacy. Just because Tony Blair has had a tendency to jump the gun and has been made out to be a liar by his own party members I do not blame the whole of the West for being liars.

Capiche?

I also understand I have certain responsibilities and within my own sphere of influence I hope to make a difference. I have another very good reason to since a few days ago as I became a father. These are the important things in life and we have a planet to share - I'd hate to see humanity as a whole go to the path of destruction again especially when it people like you and I can make a difference right here and right now before it is too late.

 

[Sabastian]

Aye Sabastian - I am saying that the 'sane portion' of Islam is 99.999% and I am trying to stress that you cannot hold the entire culture and way of life accountable for the acts of the very few as I have stated I wouldnt do the same to you. Example just because Pat Robertson makes silly statements in the name of Christianity I do not blame Christianity for his fallacy. Just because Tony Blair has had a tendency to jump the gun and has been made out to be a liar by his own party members I do not blame the whole of the West for being liars.

Capiche?

I also understand I have certain responsibilities and within my own sphere of influence I hope to make a difference. I have another very good reason to since a few days ago as I became a father. These are the important things in life and we have a planet to share - I'd hate to see humanity as a whole go to the path of destruction again especially when it people like you and I can make a difference right here and right now before it is too late.

I think that is the discrepancy really Tahir. My impression is that the movement within Islam is far greater then a mere 0.01% of the Muslim population. How much more is the question? Regardless of the numerical differences though, the radical elements voices and actions speak louder then the 99.99% of Muslims that digress. If it is such a small portion then there simply are not enough vocalizations spoke out against the fringe group. However the more coherent group that Bush is attempting to appeal to is not in this continent necessarily and I would suggest to you that the conditions are far worse in Arabic demography. I can not hold any one individual responsible for the problems that Islam is facing, however there is culpability in the acts of large numbers of clerics throughout Arabia to a large degree. Tahir, you have been most compassionate with regards to this matter and thanks for that. I am encouraged that Islam will recover someday from the humiliation these thugs have wrought from within your religion. But as it stands the 99.99% have got to do more to end the perception that Islam is a source of fear. I am regretful for that perception but there is a matter of cause for it.

 

[epicstruggle]

epic, 3000 is the CIAs rough estimate for how many terrorists remain at large in the world today. They estimated roughly 10,000 to 15,000 before we destroyed many of their camps and personnel in the Afghan war, as well as the crackdown on terorrism around the world. Many of those people are actually being held in Guantanemo atm.

source please.

Also, ive started to really question how informed the cia *could* possibly be. Infiltrating a govermnent is a heck of alot easier than getting inside of alquaeda. I think if you saw the Rumsfeld memo, he is worried that terrorists are created faster than they can be captured or killed.

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

Time Magazine and Newsweek in the months after 9/11. They had roughly 20 "special series" issues dealing directly with terrorism.

And even if you want to be possibly worst case scenario, let us say there are 1 Million terrorists worldwide. Out of 1 Billion practicing muslims, that is 0.1% of the population. A statistical blip. The CIA estimated that there were 10,000 - 15,000 active terrorists around the world before their organizations were routed in Afghanistan. Now they estimate roughly 3000.

Even if they were wrong by a factor of 10, that is still statistically insignificant, especially when compared against the number of true practicing muslims worldwide.

 

[Natoma]

Aye Sabastian - I am saying that the 'sane portion' of Islam is 99.999% and I am trying to stress that you cannot hold the entire culture and way of life accountable for the acts of the very few as I have stated I wouldnt do the same to you. Example just because Pat Robertson makes silly statements in the name of Christianity I do not blame Christianity for his fallacy. Just because Tony Blair has had a tendency to jump the gun and has been made out to be a liar by his own party members I do not blame the whole of the West for being liars.

Capiche?

I also understand I have certain responsibilities and within my own sphere of influence I hope to make a difference. I have another very good reason to since a few days ago as I became a father. These are the important things in life and we have a planet to share - I'd hate to see humanity as a whole go to the path of destruction again especially when it people like you and I can make a difference right here and right now before it is too late.

I think that is the discrepancy really Tahir. My impression is that the movement within Islam is far greater then a mere 0.01% of the Muslim population. How much more is the question? Regardless of the numerical differences though, the radical elements voices and actions speak louder then the 99.99% of Muslims that digress. If it is such a small portion then there simply are not enough vocalizations spoke out against the fringe group. However the more coherent group that Bush is attempting to appeal to is not in this continent necessarily and I would suggest to you that the conditions are far worse in Arabic demography. I can not hold any one individual responsible for the problems that Islam is facing, however there is culpability in the acts of large numbers of clerics throughout Arabia to a large degree. Tahir, you have been most compassionate with regards to this matter and thanks for that. I am encouraged that Islam will recover someday from the humiliation these thugs have wrought from within your religion. But as it stands the 99.99% have got to do more to end the perception that Islam is a source of fear. I am regretful for that perception but there is a matter of cause for it.

Of course they speak louder than the 99.99% of Muslims who protest and disagree. Why? Because the news organizations don't cover every cleric and man and woman and child on the "muslim street" who come out against terrorism. They only cover "Terrorist bombing in Israel by Muslim Extremists" or "Terrorist Killing in Iraq" or "Terrorists destroy US Navy Ship" or whatever.

Tahir posted quotes and links to many of the dissenting voices from many muslims and muslim nations after 9/11. And honestly, I hadn't heard or read about any of those until he did so. Bombs will always grab more headlines and sell more papers than the words of those who want peace.

But you would still fault them for not making a bigger statement? Yeesh. The perception of Islam, and you're still not getting this Sabastian, is what it is today in part because people such as yourself refuse to see that terrorism is NOT true Islam. It never EVER has been. Just as those who practice death and murder from within Christianity are not true Christians and they never EVER have been.

That 0.01% that you allude to are NOT muslims, yet you include them in there. The point that I'm making, that Tahir is making, and, save me jeebus, Bush is making, is that true Islam is a religion of peace, introspection, love, and tolerance. It is not this warped disgusting shell you see parroted about by the terrorists who call themselves Muslims. They are fakers. They are disingenuine. And it would behoove you to listen to what is being said here and cease to think of them as Muslims. Because they are most certainly not. They are nut cases who need to be killed or imprisoned.

 

[epicstruggle]

Time Magazine and Newsweek in the months after 9/11. They had roughly 20 "special series" issues dealing directly with terrorism.

And even if you want to be possibly worst case scenario, let us say there are 1 Million terrorists worldwide. Out of 1 Billion practicing muslims, that is 0.1% of the population. A statistical blip. The CIA estimated that there were 10,000 - 15,000 active terrorists around the world before their organizations were routed in Afghanistan. Now they estimate roughly 3000.

Even if they were wrong by a factor of 10, that is still statistically insignificant, especially when compared against the number of true practicing muslims worldwide.

There might have been less than 10,000 terrorist prior to 9/11. But after I can only imagine that we killed many, but the number of teenagers who joined because of OBL could have spiked incredibly.

Look at it another way, 19 hijackers killed about 3000 people. Thats 1 terrorist for each 150 dead. A suicide bomber in israel kills between 1-20 people depending on locale. So 3000 terrorist could kill between a few thousand to half a million. This is without any use of WMDs. IMO enough to influence govermnent and instill fear and ruin economies. However if the number of terrorists was off by *only* a factor of 10. Now we have tens of thousands of deaths to millions.

The other problem is that there are a potential 1 billion terrorist. Now Ill admit that to get an average muslim to become a terrorist might be easy or hard. A disinfranchised (sp?) teenager in the west bank might be persuaded easily and a suburban middle aged women in the west might never become a terrorist no matter what. So how do we know how many people will become terrorist because of our actions in Iraq. Not me, do you?

In india you can whip up a mob to go burn a train or some other act of violence in the right circumstance. So this is not only an issue for those who follow islam. Its an issue that the silent non-violent majority should deal with so that their religion isnt marred/stereotyped.

later,
epic

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

The other problem is that there are a potential 1 billion terrorist.

That sentence in a nutshell explains what i'm trying to get across. The idea that every muslim on the planet is a potential terrorist is simply abhorrent to me, and I'm not even a muslim!

You may not truly believe that, but there are many who do epic, and that is a problem.

Now as for the stats on how many people terrorists have killed. Most of the terrorists are not the ones who do the suicide runs. They are part of the infrastructure that command the "foot soldiers". If the corrolation of deaths to # of terrorists in the world were as cut and dry and you say, we'd have tens of thousands of deaths every year from terrorism. When in fact deaths from terrorism are very low. Spectacular events such as 9/11 are thankfully very rare, which is why they have such an impact.

 

[DemoCoder]

I just read the Riyadh bombing news on several sites. Isn't it interesting that Al Jazeera, always wanting to show child casualities, did not mention at all that most of those killed or injured were children home from school for Ramadan, or show any pictures? The only time they show any injuries is if they can pin or blame the injuries on Israel or the US. I guess they don't want to show Muslim children being killed or injured by Al Qaeda or their sympathizers.

Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but Al Jazeera's coverage of muslim on muslim violence seems to be whitewashed, especially if it comes from terrorist organizations that they themselves provide positive coverage of.