Don't know what to think of this...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3355644,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3355644,00.html
Suicide bombers in Mecca
- Thread starter RussSchultz
- Start date
Isnt violence in mecca supposed to be a big no-no. Will this make the terrorist look bad in the public's eye?
later,
epic
later,
epic
Willmeister
Newcomer
This isn't surprising. Remember those years ago when Shia were walking around extolling the Iranian Revolution? Now, this is a serious escalation. A whole new kettle of fish.
It all depends on the arguments used on all sides, as always. Everyone will be playing this to get public support.
It all depends on the arguments used on all sides, as always. Everyone will be playing this to get public support.
Perhaps by ....
/que spooky music
...the Mossad?
/que spooky music
...the Mossad?
I'm suspicious of the Saudi government motives of cracking down on terrorist organizations. They're against al-qaeda, not because of some desire for reform, but to protect their precious little emir-esque skins.Sabastian said:
I wonder if these reports of "terrorist cells" being raided aren't confused reports of the Saudi government cracking down on reformists.
pax said:
Perhaps by ....
/que spooky music
...the CIA?
hehe, yeah I agree with you though in that there are not enough details.
Edit: Ahh, sorry anyhow they were suicide bombers that blew themselves up upon arrest, so it isn't likely it was Mossad or any other similar organization. Obviously police were made aware of their actions somehow.
Silent_One
Newcomer
epicstruggle wrote:
Years ago (40 years or so...) the pilgrimage to Mecca was always a dangerous one. People were killed or robbed in the city or outside the city on a regular basis.
Tahir wrote:
Why?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/timeline/text/qmilitant.html
Years ago (40 years or so...) the pilgrimage to Mecca was always a dangerous one. People were killed or robbed in the city or outside the city on a regular basis.
Tahir wrote:
Why?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/timeline/text/qmilitant.html
Sabastian said:
Pardon? I support Jihad. Now we have Jihadist... oh dear. All muslims believe in Jihad Sabastian. It is a fundamental tenet of belief. Next we will be hearing that any Muslim who is a monothist is a traitor... ah ignorance is such bliss.
And Silent_One I am shocked and saddened. Does that bother you?
edit: typo
Tahir said:Pardon? I support Jihad. Now we have Jihadist... oh dear. All muslims believe in Jihad Sabastian. It is a fundamental tenet of belief. Next we will be hearing that any Muslim who is a monothist is a traitor... ah ignorance is such bliss.
And Silent_One I am shocked and saddened. Does that bother you?
edit: typo
Ok fine, replace Jihadist with Jihad terrorist then, whatever. Jihad is the rally call of terrorist as of late I was simply using Jihadist as an adjective of sorts to describe these moron terrorist groups while it is not as precise of a label. I understand you are offended by the label but I would propose that it is an effective label to describe these terrorist groups presently. I would advocate that it is up to the muslim community to correct this sense and show the world that the current torrent of terrorism is without a doubt some fringe movement and not indicative of your entire culture. It is not my fault that the muslim culture seems to embrace terrorism, anti Americanism, and Anti-Semitism. The onus is on you and other sane muslims to rectify the radical elements of your culture. Otherwise blanket statements with regards to Islamic fundamentalist and Jihad will become more and more synonymous with terrorism. You know something, it is almost at the point where Islamic culture has become so obnoxious and shameless in their attacks of America that it is quite nearly deserving of the stereotype that Jihad mixed with terrorism brings with it. The real meaning of Jihad is being tarnished and it is not up to the US or me to correct the matter, rather, it is absolutely up to muslims to repair the damage these supposed fringe groups have managed. Otherwise I do apologize for my improper use of the word Jihad but do not apologize for the terrorist stigma it carries.
The word Jihad simply means struggle. In the true sense of Islam, it deals with the internal spiritual struggle to stay the path in all that is good within Allah. I don't believe in Islam or any religion, but I do my best to educate myself on its different and fundamental tenets, especially in this day and age. Actually I try to educate myself on all facets of all religions, but of course there are only so many hours in the day.
You should do the same Sabastian, as well as others who would help denigrate Islam either purposefully or mistakenly, as you have done. It is not the fault of the people who practice Islam that the only attention the religion gets is when there's a bombing. And frankly I don't see what the "masses" that you refer to can do to stop it. Could the "masses" of peasants have stopped the Crusades during the middle ages? What about the raping of indiginous women by christian missionaries after the "new world" was discovered?
The problem arises when people spout off about Islam without knowing what they're saying, and others take it as fact. Then when someone such as Tahir comes along, there's a brouhaha about the terrible misconception.
I don't stigmatize Christianity as a religion of terrorism and hatred even though the biggest faces in Christianity (IRA/Pat Buchanan/Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson/Reverend Phelps for example) certainly project that portrait. Is it up to the "masses" of christians to take down the IRA? Is it up to the "masses" of christians to stop Falwell and Robertson and Phelps and their hate speech?
What exactly could be done to stop it? When Phelps and Robertson came out after 9/11 saying Islam was the religion of the devil, millions around the world rioted at their comments and said "This is what christianity is about!" How could you or anyone else stop that misconception anymore than Tahir can stop the terrorist misconception that so many people place on Islam?
If we were to make blanket statements about Christianity for instance, we'd say that Christians are the historical mass rapers and murderers of the world and seem to embrace only death and destruction. This is of course if you want to bring out history.
While I abhor the extremist factions that say they believe in Islam and Allah, I equally abhor those who would tar and feather an entire religion, 1 billion worth, of supporting and being of that same ilk. Especially when a little education could remedy that situation. That is the problem in this day and age. Misconceptions and not enough education.
You should do the same Sabastian, as well as others who would help denigrate Islam either purposefully or mistakenly, as you have done. It is not the fault of the people who practice Islam that the only attention the religion gets is when there's a bombing. And frankly I don't see what the "masses" that you refer to can do to stop it. Could the "masses" of peasants have stopped the Crusades during the middle ages? What about the raping of indiginous women by christian missionaries after the "new world" was discovered?
The problem arises when people spout off about Islam without knowing what they're saying, and others take it as fact. Then when someone such as Tahir comes along, there's a brouhaha about the terrible misconception.
I don't stigmatize Christianity as a religion of terrorism and hatred even though the biggest faces in Christianity (IRA/Pat Buchanan/Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson/Reverend Phelps for example) certainly project that portrait. Is it up to the "masses" of christians to take down the IRA? Is it up to the "masses" of christians to stop Falwell and Robertson and Phelps and their hate speech?
What exactly could be done to stop it? When Phelps and Robertson came out after 9/11 saying Islam was the religion of the devil, millions around the world rioted at their comments and said "This is what christianity is about!" How could you or anyone else stop that misconception anymore than Tahir can stop the terrorist misconception that so many people place on Islam?
If we were to make blanket statements about Christianity for instance, we'd say that Christians are the historical mass rapers and murderers of the world and seem to embrace only death and destruction. This is of course if you want to bring out history.
While I abhor the extremist factions that say they believe in Islam and Allah, I equally abhor those who would tar and feather an entire religion, 1 billion worth, of supporting and being of that same ilk. Especially when a little education could remedy that situation. That is the problem in this day and age. Misconceptions and not enough education.
I know you said seems to, but in all honesty what you should have said is "It is not my fault that the west sees the muslim culture as embracing terrorism, anti-Americanism, and anti-Semitism."
I am against putting new labels on people full stop, e.g. Jihadist, Islamicist, Islamisicisation because they are made up words and dont carry any real meaning.
Jihadist doesnt really mean anything and whilst I hate how losely the term 'terrorist' is used these days you are better off calling the people who did what they did in Mecca 'terrorists.'
Islamic culture has absolutely nothing to do with attacks on America (you mean the WTC bombing or what? Most suicide bomb attacks are in Israel which isnt American last time I checked), but I absolutely agree with you that the Jihad does have terrorism attached to it. I absolutely do not believe Islam deserves it, however that Muslims are doing enough to stop it is something that needs to be addressed by the Muslims.
It will happen and is happening by people like Hamza Yusuf however I will also state that it is an easier world to live in when the good and bad guys are clearly defined and created images are easier to sell than reality. In a black and white world it is so much simpler to choose your side.
And Sabastian I wasnt offended by your statement as such, because you are honest and pretty much justified for what you said and even in your reply. I blame myself for the way you think. Hopefully in the long run we can change that together.
Just one small favour I ask of everyone, I cant stand it when someone reads a pamphlet of some sort, or book, or watches a video and all of a sudden becomes an expert in the field. There is too much of that crap and it leads to worse things than having no knowledge at all in most cases. This pretty much applies to all kinds of knowledge/subjects not just religion.
Tahir said:
Agreed. Nor do I think of terrorists such as Al-Qaeda and Al-Ansar as Muslims. If they were true muslims, they wouldn't be doing the things or saying the things they do.
That was precisely my point.
Out of 1 Billion practicing muslims, there are maybe 3000 terrorists who say they practice. 3000 in 1 Billion. That's why I really hate it when people tar and feather your religion based on the actions of those fake muslims. I may not agree with religion in general, but I also don't like seeing an entire people wrongfully branded as evil terrorists, or supporting such actions.
Tahir, I want to thank you for your conscientious reply. But I do not see the Muslim community denouncing terrorism and the mentality behind it as much as it needs to be condemned. I am hopeful that the Muslim community works hard to change the indelible mark that these fringe groups have marked your culture with. There must be more effort on behalf of Muslims to rectify the problem.
