*Sub-Thread* Dithering in GTA4

[Mintmaster]

Mr Mintmaster,

I never claimed that it's AF'ing or higher textures of the PS3 are using FP16, i'm only stating the overall IQ on the PS3 looks more detailed and uniform to my eye.
(That's still with the PS3 version appearing more blurry and the 360 sharper and cleaner)

Oh really? I suppose it was some imposter that said all this:

1)There's no doubt it's doing better AF'ing then the 360 version.

One final thing, i really believe the PS3 version is using higher quality textures, because in so many areas the difference is very noticable.

3)Now, i can assure you there is better texture quality on the PS3 version

The textures are the same. The AF is the same level. The difference is shadows and this bug.

You mentioned a point in which has bothered me when i first saw this, why was the 360 rendered this way when Xenos is more powerful then the RSX?.

Because, like I said, Rockstar just didn't care much about 360 image quality. There is no other explanation for them using different colour tone with the PS3. There's no other explanation for them having a texturing bug that none of the other thousand XBox 360 games have.

It has nothing to do with power. 360 is executing 25% more shader instructions and writing 2.5 times the samples per frame, and by most accounts it's at a slightly higher framerate too. If that's not a statement of power then I don't know what is.

And from over 30 hrs of staring at both versions playing at the same time..in the same spots, i know the PS3's engine is doing something to have more detailed textures. No matter how blurry it may look..

Nope, PS3 is doing nothing. The 360 version is just doing something that hurts texture quality.

 

[btdvox]

The resolution differences are confirmed and there's no doubt. PS3 has no AA and 360 has 2xAA.

Any dithering that the PS3 has come from issues that plague all games, like shadowing, alpha testing, edge aliasing, etc. However, the 360 has an additional source of dithering in a bunch of textures - maybe every texture - and that's what we're trying to figure out. (The shadowing too, but that's understood.)

So someone with the 360 version: Does that "BurgerShot" sign get messed up gradually and uniformly when you slowly move away from it, or do pixels suddenly change one at a time? How about the "Memory Lanes" sign or the ads on the wall?

It happens when you enter the restaurant and then goes away when you go closer or if you move - It seems when its a static image it gives that effect. Any thoughts on why?

Also I Alot of you may not be able to do this but just because you see a bunch of screen shots and are jduging that is much different than playing. For those that have both consoles and if you want - rent the other version to see the difference, Its quite different on my TV. With the exact same settings the main thing that strikes out is that the PS3 is quite a bit blurrier, I should also state that if PS3 has no AA and 360 has 2 XAA i still think ps3 has less ailasing simply because its alot blurrier.

 

[betan]

It happens when you enter the restaurant and then goes away when you go closer or if you move - It seems when its a static image it gives that effect. Any thoughts on why?

So it's not a smooth transition from noisy version to "correct" one?
Noise just pops out?
Probably not a mipmap error if so.

 

[Juan Panson]

looks like it doesnt affect every texture on 360. these look the same to me.

 

[speedsix]

speedsix,

I don't think it is possible to calibrate color "correctly" in terms of "best". I know in the color printing business you calibrate to standards, so that when the service bureau takes a project, the customer gets the colors that they expected.

I know in the audiophilia and videophilia markets, there are people who will "calibrate" the color/audio of your home theater. IMO, on consumer gear these guys are snake oil salesmen. On a given piece of consumer equiptment you are gonna get what the particular device gives you. On the sales floor at circuit city and best buy, the customers equate brigter hotter colors with quality and the loudness of a stereo with quality... But neither of these represent "accurate" reproduction.

There are also physiological limits like it or not. Audio quality surpassed (conclusively) human hear ability many years ago. The CD released like 25 years ago now brought that perfect reproduction to the masses.

In video, it is a harder nut to crack. No video format I know of comes even remotely close to human limits of perception. Even the most naive of viewers can tell the difference between any picture of an Apple, presented in any format, and a real apple, sitting there in front of them. So knowing that every visual presentation is going to be an artistic rendering there is no "better" there is only "accurately reproduces the source material"

In this case, the PS3 has its own source material, and the xbox has its own source material.

If people find the PS3 version better, it is because it lacks the artifacts like the shimmer and moire patters that I find really disorienting in the xbox version. I think this thread has more or less concluded (well I have anyhow) that is a function of the PS3 downscaling the image.

I think a patch to GTA IV that at least gave xbox users the option to run this game at 640p, like the PS3 version, would be a simple fix (but what do I know?) and effectively make both versions identical.

My screen in particular has been calibrated with the coloured, clear plastic cards you get with the Avia calibration disc, including the internal service menu decoder settings so I would say it's going to be fairly close to what the developer was looking at. Maybe

You are right about the indoor scenes thought, they defintiely have a different tint to them.

 

[B1663r]

Another wild conspiracy theory....

Is it possible that the intent of the post effects processing is to make the hd game look like the sd game? On my setup at least, I can't get over how much more similar the sd game is to the box art than the hd game. Also, overall, I would say the sd game has a much more consistent look to it...

 

[grandmaster]

The forthcoming Eurogamer piece should be up on Wednesday I think, but in the meantime, here are some preview shots. Lossless 24-bit full-range RGB, as usual. Left is 360, right PS3. Click to expand.

Indoors shot first. Yes there does appear to be a small variance in the palette. It's very rare to actually come across a cross-platform game where the colour balance is identical on both formats.



Outdoors shot. The weather cheat was engaged to make sure that lighting was as close as possible.

 

[grandmaster]

Here's a shot straight after the intro sequence has completed. You'd expect them to be identical, but again there are minor differences.



This is a tough game to compare. I'm running them side by side but even with judicious use of the pause button it's very tough to capture the same scene at the same in-game time. The capture unit does allow for capture from two HDMI sources simultaneously, but I'd need to use lossy compression to do so and drop from 24-bit RGB to YPrPb 4:2:2, which I'd rather not.

Lighting appears to be pretty much constant between the two versions, but even a change of a couple of minutes of in-game time shows small differences.

It's also very, very tough to keep the games in sync as the change in weather appears to be arbitrary.

With regards the 'which is better-looking debate', I'm not a fan of the blur effect of sub-HD resolutions in general, so normally I'd plump for 360. But the dithering effect seems to magnify a shimmering effect seen in both versions and occasionally looks very unattractive. But you get an ugly moire pattern on PS3 too, which combined with the blur doesn't look great.



I can't help but think that the texture dithering is not a bug though. I really find it hard to think that such a prominent 'bug' would be left in a game with a $100m budget. That said, a patch to turn this effect off would be very, very welcome.

 

[Mintmaster]

looks like it doesnt affect every texture on 360. these look the same to me.

Unfortunately those shots are downscaled instead of cropped, so we can't say for sure whether the originals had the problem or not. Also, it only affects textures when they're being minimified.

Any argument about significantly different lighting should be put to rest, though, as the time of day is identical. A very slight colour tweak is all there is.

 

[grandmaster]

Unfortunately those shots are downscaled instead of cropped, so we can't say for sure whether the originals had the problem or not. Also, it only affects textures when they're being minimified.

You think? Look at the memory lanes texture in the bottom left quadrant.

 

[Mintmaster]

Indoors shot first. Yes there does appear to be a small variance in the palette. It's very rare to actually come across a cross-platform game where the colour balance is identical on both formats.

Thanks for the screenshots, grandmaster.

That laundromat shot has the same washer control face texture repeated, and you can gradually see it getting messed up in a way that I think fits my theory. Can you give me one screenshot where you get at close to the machine as possible, preferably with you facing it head on? If it's magnified enough, I can recreate part of that texture, screw up the first mipmap, and see if it gives the same symptoms in a 3D app.

EDIT: Took out my banding comment, as it was a wierd display problem on my end.

 

[Mintmaster]

You think? Look at the memory lanes texture in the bottom left quadrant.

Yup, I noticed the same thing in Dot50Cal's screenshots. When you're close enough that the trilinear filter only uses the top level mipmap, it's artifact free. Check the other "Memory Lanes" decals on the bar.

I can't help but think that the texture sub-dithering is not a bug though. I really find it hard to think that such a prominent 'bug' would be left in a game with a $100m budget. That said, a patch to turn this effect off would be very, very welcome.

I would think the same thing. However, I'm not about to accuse Rockstar of intentionally sabotaging the 360 version to fuzz up the textures, so I'll just chalk it up to apathy.

 

[_phil_]

i don't see any banding on my screen.That's normal ,banding can appear on someone screen and not on another ,or not in the same hue range.

But jumping back and forth on both links , i see a shadow poping.

 

[Mintmaster]

i don't see any banding on my screen.That's normal ,banding can appear on someone screen and not on another ,or not in the same hue range.

But jumping back and forth on both links , i see a shadow poping.

You know what, I think it was some Internet Explorer problem. I don't see it anymore either. I'll edit the post.

I don't know why you call that "a shadow popping". There's no shadows in the PS3 image and there is at least one in the 360 image.

 

[btdvox]

I find the dithering to be a little annoying - The main thing is I can tell both versions have it- but the 360 is much mroe prone to it, And i beleive it has also to do with the fact that its also much sharper and doesnt have a blurry image to begin with.

That being said- On the PS3 text and signs/banners are clean of the dithering effect but on 360 you can see them when your standing still, if you move though the banner becomes clean, fact is i dont know if thats better or worse as if you stop you can notice again and then it'll go away when you move lol.

But Shadows are the main culprit, Indoor scenes are fine but when its dawn or sunset, and your near fences or anyhting like that you'll see more of the dithering from shadows on the 360 than the ps3, But its still somewhat noticeable on the ps3 and I think that is a given, as alot of console games I play have that same effect on shadows. Correct me if im wrong.

I highly doubt its a MipMap error. And it seems that its not caused from Alpha Textures- as fences as such portray the Dithering much less.

 

[Philip42]

Does anyone know what's causing the blur effect on the PS3?

Is it some sort of filtering effect?

It seems like whatever that is, it may be the reason why the PS3 version is less dithered but also more blurry.

This reminds me of the days when the Voodoo 5 would do 4X FSAA, but with the cost of bluring textures.

 

[Philip42]

You think? Look at the memory lanes texture in the bottom left quadrant.

You can easily read the 'take a roll down' letters of the PS3 version, while the 360's are too dithered to make out.

This is a great example of what is happening in many textures in this game, for some reason the 360 version is more dithered, and it really effects the smaller signs/textures.

Of course the 360 version is cleaner/sharper on the flip side.

I'm sure if you got 100 gamers to look at both versions in action, it would be split 50/50(give or take +1 or +2) as to which they prefer.

I'm not sure why there was not an in between here, it's eithier too much on the blurry side or too much on the dithered(sharper) side.

I still would opt for the PS3 style because it's a sandbox game and everything on it's map matters, but if this was a FPS, i'd easily opt for the 360's style.

And thanks for posting those great pics.

 

[aaronspink]

Indoors shot first. Yes there does appear to be a small variance in the palette. It's very rare to actually come across a cross-platform game where the colour balance is identical on both formats.

anyone else noticing all the missing shadows on the PS3 shots?

Aaron spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

[aaronspink]

You think? Look at the memory lanes texture in the bottom left quadrant.

what strikes me the most is it looks like the 360 and PS3 are using totally different lighting systems.

 

[Pete]

I must be missing those missing shadows. What's not shadowed that should be in those bowling shots? All I see is the ceiling shadows or whatever shifted (and the usual warmer red/yellow tint).

And I thought SSAA didn't blur textures, but actually was equivalent to a small amount of AF? I can't remember if it seemed blurry b/c some games unnecessarily let text and the HUD be SSAA'ed as well. Though the 360's texture problem doesn't seem to be one of blurring, but of poor sampling (or MIP-map creation, as Mint says).