Why have High Resolution at only 30fps?

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Jupiter, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Scott_Arm

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    Yep, typo
     
  2. Recop

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    Motion blur still blurs the whole screen at 60fps :



    I don't understand your point... so, a blurred image looks looks like 300p at 30fps and like a native image at 60fps ? :nope:
     
  3. Jupiter

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    At 60fps it gets much sharper but depending on the screen not 100% sharp. I do not like full screen motion blur in 60fps+ games I would use a very weak one at the most.
     
  4. Scott_Arm

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    Full-screen motion blur is rarely necessary, in my opinion. It can probably disguise judder in 30fps games, which may be one of the reasons it's popular.

    I increasingly believe that 30fps is a bad choice in all cases. It only looks really good when the image on the screen is moving slowly.
     
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  5. Allandor

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    I see that problem, too. The more pixels are on the screen more details are visible. If you than move the camera a whole lot of details are moving, that were not visible at lower resolutions. So you can actually see everything "jumping" a bit. So we at least need something to compensate that, and that would be 60fps.

    e.g. 20fps games worked well back in the past when games had a resolution of 320*240 (even 640*480) just because we had so small screens. Now I can no longer play e.g. "Crusader no remorse" for a longer time period. It ran quite fluent at a 14" screen back in the days, but now it's like you can count the frames.
     
  6. Globalisateur

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    All those screenshots taken in motion won't look the same on a real LCD monitor. they'll look worse.

    And anyways a game in motion using heavy motion blur at 60fps will look very much like a 30fps game.
     
    #26 Globalisateur, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  7. Jupiter

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    @Allandor
    Exactly. The larger the screen the bigger the problem becomes. That's why I'm worried about movies when I buy a 78 inch OLED sometime in the future. Then I probably have to use a frame Interpolation method for 24fps movies. The people with their own home theaters which I know already use it with their expensive SONY projectors.

    At 30fps motion blur can help a lot.

    As I said. This does not work in many games because of the slow console CPUs. If Ryzen is used with a three times faster performance then there will be not many excuses left in my opinion. ^^

    So long Xbox One X versions should not target UHD and 30fps in these games but for example 1620p and 30fps with much better graphics in my opinion.
     
    #27 Jupiter, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  8. Recop

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    So at best, it should look like 600p in the same conditions at 60fps...
     
  9. jlippo

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    Framerate doubling or creation of intermediate frames would be interesting choice.
    Either classic re-projections or things like texture space lighting and refreshing shading at lower rate than framerate.
     
  10. HMTB

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    Hi - I'm new to this forum and it's been a very interesting read so far, especially this thread and the one comparing motion blur implementations. I stumbled across this site looking for info about motion blur after finding Uncharted 4 (original PS4) and Gears of War 4 (Xbox One X) really hard to enjoy due to all the motion blur/loss of focus present when panning the camera or moving around. As an observation, I find Gears of War 4 almost unplayable to me in 4k 30fps mode, but absolutely fine at 1080p 60fps. Same with Hitman - I much prefer 1440p at 60fps to 4k 30fps. I find the loss of focus to the image in 30fps third person games really bad (to varying degrees depending on the game) due to the blur that is often added (e.g. also GTA V on PS4, TLOU at 30fps (fine at 60fps)). Oddly, Killzone Shadowfall at 1080p 30fps as a first person shooter is fine and 60fps games like Wolfenstein 2, Halo 5, Titanfall 2 are all good.

    This seems to be more a problem with third person games at 30fps to the point were I try to avoid them if possible, though still playing Horizon Zero Dawn and Uncharted Lost Legacy.

    I never noticed this before but I connected my old Xbox 360 to my old HD plasma and Gears of War 2 and GTA 4 had the same problem and I didn't realize at the time until I got a bigger tv. Now I find myself distracted by it all the time.

    Odd.
     
  11. milk

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    This might not be a problem of motion blur exactly, but rather 30fps motion in heneral (exacerbated in 3rd person camera games) as some of the games you mentioned actually don't feature any Post Processed Motion Blur at all. It might be you are specially sensitice to it, or your monitor handles motion poorly, or both. The fact U4 and GoW4 were the first titles you mentioned though, certainly helps make the case that post process MB certaibly helps make it worse.
     
  12. Gemüsepizza

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    The recent Uncharted games have an option to disable/reduce motion blur in the menus, maybe this helps.

    @topic: Yeah I would really prefer if games did not just focus on resolution. Frame rate can dramatically improve clarity, making it easier to see graphical details. It's especially noticeable in games like TLoU, where you can quickly switch between 30 and 60fps. As soon as you start moving the camera, all becomes a blur with 30fps. I really hope next-gen will provide 60fps modes for most games.
     
  13. Scott_Arm

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    Motion blur on displays is definitely a real issue, especially on tvs.

    I do think some games are way too aggressive with camera motion blur, but a little bit does help disguise 30 fps judder.
     
  14. Jupiter

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    In some games like Uncharted 4 and The Order 1886 the motion blur is too heavy. It even makes me dizzy. Fortunately it could be deactivated in a later patch in Uncharted 4.

    Yes, the bigger the diagonal at the same seat distance the more annoying 30fp and fullscreen motion blur become.
     
  15. HMTB

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    I think it's a combination of both 30fps and blur that I find irksome. GoW4 and U4 are definitely the worst. It's also possible it's a 30fps issue generally as the double frames/ghosting as you pan the camera in these games isn't apparent in 60fps games or even 60fps versions of the same game (hitman, Gears 4, TLOU). I thought it was my tv (4K LED LCD) at first but it gets good reviews for motion and has no problem at all with 60fps games. I also tested these on my plasma and it (the blur/doubling of frames when panning in 3rd person) still an issue there for 30fps games (except Killzone).

    I think what I'm seeing is both inherent to 30fps in third person games (the doubling in the background) when you pan the camera or look around and also the added blur to certain games (GoW4 and U4). Until now I've lumped them into the same category, but the blurring in Uncharted and Gears is slightly different to the 30fps issue and worse.

    I wish more games would focus on higher frame rates rather than 4k on console. As an aside, at my viewing distance, frame rate is far more beneficial to me than resolution, though clearly that's my choice. 60fps improves the experience massively.
     
  16. Globalisateur

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    It's not odd, the motion blur used in Killzone SF is of very high quality IMO. Motion blur used in Uncharted 4 is mediocre (which lead to numerous complaints and ND just gave us an option to totally remove it).

    The last Naughty dog game that was doing it in the right way (subtle motion blur) was TLOU Remastered at 60fps.

    I don't think GTAV has any kind of motion blur, even on current gen. But I do think the motion blur used in Horizon is quite good (don't you think ? It still better than the one in Uncharted LL, if you didn't remove it in the options, right ?).

    From your quick list the games that you don't like in motion are either 30fps with no motion blur or bad motion blur. And you seem to like games having good motion blur (good = keeping decent level high frequency information in motion) or obviously those running at 60fps.

    And by the way, welcome !
     
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  17. HMTB

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    Thank you very much.

    Horizon I don't find too bad actually. Re GTA V, I think I was mistaking the loss of focus when panning due to 30fps with motion blur, and perhaps conflating those two things generally.

    I just turned down the camera sensitivity on Lost Legacy and it seems to help a little. I set blur to 5, same as U4.

    Thanks again all for the explanations, interesting subject.
     

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