Steam

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah. Unless someone has real data showing migration to Steam, we can't make any assumptions about impact from internet noise. Software sales on PS5 should be clearly affected by a mass migration. Second hand sales should be up significantly. Otherwise not sure what else would indicate a meaningful change.

 

[Nesh]

Talking about migration from PS5 to PC is a meaningless measure that ignores the elephant in the room.

The impact can't be observed by trying to observe migration from PS5 to PC. The largest migration have more potential to happen from PS4 or other platforms to PC, which will have an effect on PS5 adoption. Which is already expected to diminish.

Besides migration, this will reflect on slower PS5 adoption and future PS adoption by the newest generation, people who are new to gaming and will buy their first platform or remain on the current one, which is PC, something almost all youngsters in the developed world have.

 

[RobertR1]

Just because you have a PC doesn’t mean you’re technically inclined. Also connecting PC’s to a TV just isn’t a thing for most people.

As long as consoles continue to offer a stress free, plug n play, living room experience, they’ll do well.

 

[Cyan]

This is happening right now. Plenty of people in forums saying exactly that. and we can see the numbers anyways. Profits are down because they don't sell enough games overall compared to the consoles they sell, compared to before. People still want PS5, but they can wait and buy more PS games on PC. They are slowly migrating to PC ecosystem.

imho, as indicated by @Johnny Awesome and @Remij who wants a console buys a console and who wants a PC will get one. I have some Playstation games on my PC and I wouldn't get a console to play them 'cos it requires you to make some extra space for a console -fine-, but also they are meant to be played on a TV although you can connect them to a monitor, but my monitor loses VRR over HDMI which is a no go-.

Console gaming has had some golden eras, the most recent one being the X360-PS3-Wii generation, where consoles were super powerful and as always easy to plug and play, and not much seemed to be happening in the PC space, except for Crysis and physics, Games for Windows was a failure and Steam wasn't what it is nowadays.

Also consoles started to have a great social infrastructure, friends lists, chats, etc, and it was easy to make friends when playing a game. In that regard the only similar thing I had ever seen on PC, and it was my favourite place of the internet, was the MS Zone, which had lots of social features and it was ideal to play Age of Empires, and had "rooms" to play and chat with friends.

Quite a few of those friends I had on the X360 still are on my friends list in pc gamepass... and that would be impossible on a PC back then even if you used IIRC and whatnot.

When I had my first PC, in the late 90s, having a PC seemed like science fiction. I remember my best childhood friend who was a Sega and Playstation fan, so nervous and shaking when he watched my PC, 'cos it fascinated him and also because he was green with envy.

In addition, back then it might be a bit more complex to troubleshoot issues with a game on the PC, it's much easier nowadays. The ideal PC would have the easy plug and play options of a console, a la Steam Deck, but MS hasn't made a strong bet in that direction, which is a shame.

Finally, there is the social changes. Current kids are from the bit generation, which are computer savvy.

 

[Nesh]

Just because you have a PC doesn’t mean you’re technically inclined. Also connecting PC’s to a TV just isn’t a thing for most people.

As long as consoles continue to offer a stress free, plug n play, living room experience, they’ll do well.

Didn't say anything about being inclined which also counts for consoles. "They'll do well" is very subjective as their market share can shrink.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

... or remain on the current one, which is PC, something almost all youngsters in the developed world have.

Not of suitable capabilities to run PS5 level games. Many kids run on potato laptops or iPads for schoolwork as that's all that's needed these days. It's not a simple, "let's not spend £500 on a PS5 and instead play for free on Steam on our current desktop," but more, "should we get a £500 PS5 or spend something more on a new desktop?" or "should we get a £500 PS5 or look into upgrading our desktop?" where the latter is more technical requirement than many can care for.

I think for Joe Public, Steam isn't able to advertise as an alternative. Either you 'get it' and PCs and upgrading etc., or you don't, but I don't think PS5 titles on PC is going to get many more people thinking about 'getting into PC' and learning what RAM and CPU and GPU are and opening them and installing graphics cards and updating drivers etc. There's only a small subset of console gamers who can make that transition comfortably.

 

[Globalisateur]

imho, as indicated by @Johnny Awesome and @Remij who wants a console buys a console and who wants a PC will get one. I have some Playstation games on my PC and I wouldn't get a console to play them 'cos it requires you to make some extra space for a console -fine-, but also they are meant to be played on a TV although you can connect them to a monitor, but my monitor loses VRR over HDMI which is a no go-.

Console gaming has had some golden eras, the most recent one being the X360-PS3-Wii generation, where consoles were super powerful and as always easy to plug and play, and not much seemed to be happening in the PC space, except for Crysis and physics, Games for Windows was a failure and Steam wasn't what it is nowadays.

Also consoles started to have a great social infrastructure, friends lists, chats, etc, and it was easy to make friends when playing a game. In that regard the only similar thing I had ever seen on PC, and it was my favourite place of the internet, was the MS Zone, which had lots of social features and it was ideal to play Age of Empires, and had "rooms" to play and chat with friends.

Quite a few of those friends I had on the X360 still are on my friends list in pc gamepass... and that would be impossible on a PC back then even if you used IIRC and whatnot.

When I had my first PC, in the late 90s, having a PC seemed like science fiction. I remember my best childhood friend who was a Sega and Playstation fan, so nervous and shaking when he watched my PC, 'cos it fascinated him and also because he was green with envy.

In addition, back then it might be a bit more complex to troubleshoot issues with a game on the PC, it's much easier nowadays. The ideal PC would have the easy plug and play options of a console, a la Steam Deck, but MS hasn't made a strong bet in that direction, which is a shame.

Finally, there is the social changes. Current kids are from the bit generation, which are computer savvy.

I very much disagree here. Console gaming now is much better than in X360-PS3 gen. Those consoles were the definition of 30fp (well 20-30fps) gaming with super slow loadings and an archaic dashboard (try to push the PS button while playing a game...). Gaming experience on PS5 is so much better than it was on PS3! No comparison, really. Now on PS5 you push the PS button and in a few seconds you are already in your resumed game which is in most case the game you want to play.

 

[hughJ]

Quite a few of those friends I had on the X360 still are on my friends list in pc gamepass... and that would be impossible on a PC back then even if you used IIRC and whatnot.

Just to provide a counter example, virtually all of my few hundred Steam friends are people I met via IRC during that pre-Steam 96-2002 era. IRC servers Quakenet, enterthegame, gamesnet were the social networking hubs. If game servers were the dance floor, IRC was the adjoining bar and restaurant. People loitered, talked, collaborated, coordinated. Clans, leagues, tournaments, mappers, modders were there. I don't think Steam's social features ever fully replaced IRC in that sense -- while it was super useful as an IM client that you didn't need to alt+tab to reach, it never had the vibe of a permanent gathering place where you could join in the middle of an active conversation in a room with dozens or hundreds of people. It was what Discord is now really.

 

[arandomguy]

Finally, there is the social changes. Current kids are from the bit generation, which are computer savvy.

There's an interesting thing here in that this might not be exactly true. There's indications that "Gen Z" is actually not very computer, as in Windows desktops or laptops, savvy as whole because that generation actually didn't really grow up with computers but phones/tablets (or I guess even Chrome Books). Basically "tech savvy" has in changed between Millenials and Gen Z due to what is considered "tech."

 

[Nesh]

Not of suitable capabilities to run PS5 level games. Many kids run on potato laptops or iPads for schoolwork as that's all that's needed these days. It's not a simple, "let's not spend £500 on a PS5 and instead play for free on Steam on our current desktop," but more, "should we get a £500 PS5 or spend something more on a new desktop?" or "should we get a £500 PS5 or look into upgrading our desktop?" where the latter is more technical requirement than many can care for.

I think for Joe Public, Steam isn't able to advertise as an alternative. Either you 'get it' and PCs and upgrading etc., or you don't, but I don't think PS5 titles on PC is going to get many more people thinking about 'getting into PC' and learning what RAM and CPU and GPU are and opening them and installing graphics cards and updating drivers etc. There's only a small subset of console gamers who can make that transition comfortably.

Your arguments are valid for a portion of the market. Casuals don't have to think about about too much technical aspects to continue gaming on PCs. Everyone eventually upgrades their PC, not everyone thinks about high end quality gaming, lower settings suffice for non core gamers, and where they are accustomed (such as a PC) to gaming they simply go to a shop ask for recommendations, without having to go through the technical details themselves and checking benchmarks like we do. When a casual who games on PC sees his PS friend playing Spiderman 2 and wants it, he will want a PS5. If he asks and finds it's a avalable on PC, some of them will stay on PC, some wont, others if their PC is a potato they will buy a new one without having to check too much technicalities since it is convenient for both gaming and everything else they are doing on PC with better performance compared to the potato. New gamers don't go through box ticking and comparing console vs PC benefits. A lot of them will game anywhere without thought. If PC is where they got used to playing games, they will likely continue there.

Before PS games became available on PC, if someone wanted a PS game the only option was a PS. Ultimately it's games that defined the PS brand. Otherwise XBOX would have been flying off the shelves like PS because they are almost identical.

 

[pjbliverpool]

There's an interesting thing here in that this might not be exactly true. There's indications that "Gen Z" is actually not very computer, as in Windows desktops or laptops, savvy as whole because that generation actually didn't really grow up with computers but phones/tablets (or I guess even Chrome Books). Basically "tech savvy" has in changed between Millenials and Gen Z due to what is considered "tech."

They are social media savvy.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Your arguments are valid for a portion of the market.

A very large part of the market.

Casuals don't have to think about about too much technical aspects to continue gaming on PCs. Everyone eventually upgrades their PC, not everyone thinks about high end quality gaming, lower settings suffice for non core gamers, and where they are accustomed (such as a PC) to gaming they simply go to a shop ask for recommendations, without having to go through the technical details themselves and checking benchmarks like we do. When a casual who games on PC sees his PS friend playing Spiderman 2 and wants it, he will want a PS5.

But he probably didn't buy one.

If he asks and finds it's a avalable on PC, some of them will stay on PC, some wont, others if their PC is a potato they will buy a new one without having to check too much technicalities since it is convenient for both gaming and everything else they are doing on PC with better performance compared to the potato. New gamers don't go through box ticking and comparing console vs PC benefits. A lot of them will game anywhere without thought. If PC is where they got used to playing games, they will likely continue there.

True.

Before PS games became available on PC, if someone wanted a PS game the only option was a PS.

People live without things. I want to play Spider-Man 2 and can easily afford a PS5 without a thought, but I'm good living without it. I have plenty of great games to play on XBOX.

Ultimately it's games that defined the PS brand. Otherwise XBOX would have been flying off the shelves like PS because they are almost identical.

The libraries are almost identical actually. Most of the best games of the generation like Cyberpunk 2077, Elden Ring, Hogwarts, Baldur's Gate 3 etc... are on both consoles. The PS brand is powerful and so are the digital ecosystem lockdowns. Xbox can't really fly off the shelves to PS gamers under those circumstances.

 

[Cyan]

EA takes a lot of their classic games to Steam.

https://gamerant.com/steam-adds-classic-ea-games-command-conquer/

EA Classic Titles Now Available on Steam​

• Command and Conquer
• Command and Conquer: The Covert Operations
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert: Counterstrike
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert: The Aftermath
• Command and Conquer: Tiberian Sun
• Command and Conquer: Tiberian Sun Firestorm
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert 2
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert 2: Yuri's Revenge
• Command and Conquer: Renegade
• Command and Conquer: Generals
• Command and Conquer: Generals: Zero Hour
• Command and Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars
• Command and Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars: Kane's Wrath
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert 3
• Command and Conquer: Red Alert 3: Uprising
• Command and Conquer 4: Tiberian Twilight
• SimCity 3000 Unlimited
• Populous
• Populous 2: Trials of the Olympic Gods
• Populous: The Beginning
• Dungeon Keeper Gold
• Dungeon Keeper 2
• Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri Planetary Pack
• The Saboteur

 

[Cyan]

25% are just playing CS:GO, Apex Legends and DOTA2.

yeah, Steam things.... You just have to take a look at the most recent big hitters on Steam. No AAA games at all and games that can run on a potato PC.

Balatro
Helldivers 2
Palworld
Lethal company
BattleBit Remastered

 

[Cyan]

A huge chunk of people who play on the PC have basically no interest (or very little) in modern AAA multiplatform games that the hardware enthusiast sub demographic focuses on.

now that you mention it, most PC gamers have very basic PCs for gaming. I'd say 10% or less of Steam users have a powerful PC -many of them less powerful than current consoles-, most Steam users have very basic PCs and integrated graphics cards.

I suppose that the people you find in the forums will be mostly from that 10% "master race", the people who simply play where they can and it happens that they have a pc that more or less run games because those people play and that's it don't go around boasting in the forums that their pc platform is better than any other.

 

[pcchen]

If we use Steam Hardware Survey, which should be fine because we are talking about Steam users, and set a slightly better than console boundary as, say GeForce 2080, 3070, and 4060, which are roughly equivalent (or better) to current consoles, and ignore laptops (Radeon numbers are unfortunately too small), we get ~18.79% of all users from the Feburary 2024 edition. That's only NVIDIA desktop GPU. Added Radeon and high end laptops we'll probably get ~20% of all Steam users having equivalent or better than current console hardwares.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Another comparative metric would be user spend, which we can't guess at for Valve. How much are users spending full price, discounts, and uber discounts across platforms?

I guess the best comparison we have is when a AA(A) title drops on console and Steam, a number comparison of players playing will show the relative markets. But then we don't get that info for the consoles. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Cyan]

Not of suitable capabilities to run PS5 level games. Many kids run on potato laptops or iPads for schoolwork as that's all that's needed these days. It's not a simple, "let's not spend £500 on a PS5 and instead play for free on Steam on our current desktop," but more, "should we get a £500 PS5 or spend something more on a new desktop?" or "should we get a £500 PS5 or look into upgrading our desktop?" where the latter is more technical requirement than many can care for.

if we talk about kids, a friend of mine who had the Megadrive as a kid, then PS1 and PS2, bought a PC for his 9 y.o. son, so he could start programming and do productivity things. Although he knows his kid is going to play games on it too -that's why he got a GTX 1650 4GB GPU when he built the PC-.

He also purchased a Switch for his son a few years ago. I think Nintendo exclusives work for a number of reasons, because of things that PS and Xbox don't have. Nintendo has a Nintendo Seal of Quality, that seal of quality coupled with the fact that they have a mascot, which is Super Mario, and devices that perform various functions such as the Switch, in addition to creating great games themselves in an "artisanal" way, so to speak. And above all, they are family oriented.

Would you give a 4 or 6-year-old a PS5 or an XSX as a gift?

 

[pjbliverpool]

If we use Steam Hardware Survey, which should be fine because we are talking about Steam users, and set a slightly better than console boundary as, say GeForce 2080, 3070, and 4060, which are roughly equivalent (or better) to current consoles, and ignore laptops (Radeon numbers are unfortunately too small), we get ~18.79% of all users from the Feburary 2024 edition. That's only NVIDIA desktop GPU. Added Radeon and high end laptops we'll probably get ~20% of all Steam users having equivalent or better than current console hardwares.

I actually count significantly more than than by just dropping the performance target down a small amount to the desktop 2070 as a minimum. Obviously that's not quite a fast as the PS5 in raster but it will generally provide a very comparable experience, and a potentially better one where RT and/or DLSS are involved. On the AMD side I've used the 6700XT as a baseline (overkill), and I've included laptop GPU's that offer more performance than the desktop 2070.

The final count is a whopping 34.23% of the PC's on Steam offering a "comparable to superior" experience to the PS5. Using the 120m MAU figure from the start of this thread that gives you over 41 million PC's in that category. And the lifetime sales of the current gen consoles for comparison are:

PlayStation 5 Total Sales: 52,647,376
Xbox Series X|S Total Sales: 27,228,480

If we drop the requirement slightly to something that is clearly slower than the PS5, but still offering the full DX12U feature set along with the performance to give a roughly similar experience at a lower resolution tier like 1080p vs 1440p (so essentially going down as far as the RTX 2060 and RX 6600) then those numbers jump up to 44.33% or over 53 million PC's.

I do agree with earlier arguments that buying habits on PC do differ to those on console which doesn't necessarily make it as lucrative a market as PS5 for the big AAA games. But purely from the perspective of "raw number of units than can run the game without significantly compromise" the PC market is pretty huge and certainly comparable in size to the PS5, if not larger.

And it's also worth a final note that all the above numbers are Steam only, and based on a baseline of monthly active users rather than total lifetime sales. So the real figures could be somewhat larger.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I do agree with earlier arguments that buying habits on PC do differ to those on console which doesn't necessarily make it as lucrative a market as PS5 for the big AAA games. But purely from the perspective of "raw number of units than can run the game without significantly compromise" the PC market is pretty huge and certainly comparable in size to the PS5, if not larger.

And it's also worth a final note that all the above numbers are Steam only, and based on a baseline of monthly active users rather than total lifetime sales. So the real figures could be somewhat larger.

While on the flip side, we're only counting hardware potential. People with that hardware might not be buying PS5 style games but just running SIMS and Minecraft on pre-built PCs that happen to have adequate GPUs that are never utilised.

I think Helldivers 2 gives a moderate insight. Unlike other Sony IPs, it's released concurrently with the same marketing and momentum and quality across both platforms, so Steam sales aren't being hampered...

Helldivers 2 is a major hit in the UK | UK February Charts

2.77 million video games were sold in the UK during February, a drop of 5.5% over the year before.This is based on data…

www.gamesindustry.biz

"It's also a real hit on both PC and PS5, with 57% of sales coming on the PlayStation, and the rest on PC."

That places Steam at 75% of the PS5 market, or about 40 million. That fits your wider scope of 'comparable hardware' quite nicely.