State of the Graphics Industry Rant

NVIDIA did "something" with the compressionbug:
Not perfect but better.

No compression:
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~vidaralm/q3_nocompr.jpg

With compression:
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~vidaralm/q3_compr.jpg

I think they essentially had the driver do DXT3 instead of DXT1 when requested to do DXT1. The compression ratio is lower, and the resultant speedup is smaller, but as you show it fixes the display.

I don't know of the side effects of this, if there are any. Does anybody have anything constructive to add to the subject?

edit: maybe this is done with a tweaker, instead of automagically in the driver? I don't know for sure.
 
Remember that todays videocards HAVE to download drivers to work. Companies update the drivers all the time, and for some companies using updated drivers is a MUST to get new games to work.

Seems like this bug can be fixed by either updating Q3A (disables compression), updating drivers (better but not perfect) or use a tweaker (perfect solution).
 
that's why we expect the parties determinant for the satisfaction of our preferences to play by the established rules (read stick to API definitions)

No, that's why I expect the parties determinant for the satisfaction of our preferences to deliver a variety of products, such that we can choose a product that most optimially matches our needs.

you do realize the r200 deprived all those who prefer fligh-sims of proper visual experience, don't you?

As long as we're making blanket statements, you do realize that the NV20 deprived all those who perfer faster performance on FPS shooters the proper performance experiences, don't you?

specs are out there for a reason!

Right...and again, I ask you for the "specs" on advanced filtering techniques.

why do you think the whole human society is built upon perdictability, stated in social-order-enforcing laws???

Please don't tell me you you just made that analogy...

cool. email this opinion of yours to JC and read the answer you get from him carefully.

I don't have to e-mail him.

http://www.webdog.org/cgi-bin/finger.plm?id=1&time=20011117012727

Closely related subject: in his wrap-up, here's the important part, IMO.

I'm not fanatical on any of this, because the overriding purpose of software is to be useful, rather than correct,

As a DEVELOPER, I expect carmack to "desire" correctness for many of the reasons he mentioned in that .plan update. But in the end, "correctness" is not important.

Of course, we're not talking about "This is suppossed to render a green cube, but it renders a red sphere instead" type of "incorrectness. We're talking about performance / quality trade-off implementations.
 
Doomtrooper said:
Huh..do you think the entire ppoulation of earth is on the internet...hell I still have friends that are not on the net.
Not everyone is tech savy, and it was quite a while before a fix came out for that issue as I had a GTS at that time.

Who would buy Quake3 that isn't on the internet?

Ok over a 50% hit enabling anisotropic filtering, a Ti4600 is getting 50 FPS and thats without AA..so what would a end user do here...either turn it off or lower that sampling..either way it effects image quality..

Yeah, 50 fps at 1600x1200. Try turning AA on (in addition to aniso) and looking at the benchmarks. You'll find the GeForce4 will have a fair lead. While neither will be all that playable at 1600x1200, it will be ahead at lower resolutions with, for example, 4x AA.
 
Galilee said:
NVIDIA did "something" with the compressionbug:
Not perfect but better.

What they did is implement texture-space dithering after decompressing the texture. It looks great for textures that are minified (texture pixels smaller than screen pixels), but looks terrible for textures that are magnified, such as those in that sky. Trust me, it looks worse in motion :( The only real solution for Quake3 is to just disable TC entirely, or use DXT3 compressed textures.
 
Chalnoth said:
Yeah, 50 fps at 1600x1200. Try turning AA on (in addition to aniso) and looking at the benchmarks. You'll find the GeForce4 will have a fair lead. While neither will be all that playable at 1600x1200, it will be ahead at lower resolutions with, for example, 4x AA.

Sure it was but where I live broadband just became widespread and alot of people played local via Lan Parties :rolleyes:

This wasn't comparing AA numbers Chalnoth..get with the program..it was to show the peformance hit a Geforce 4 was getting with anisotropic filtering since Darkblu considers ATI's inferior, I'm calling Nvidias inferior...not to mention requiring ANOTHER 3rd party tweaker for D3D support.
 
While the skybug looks bad I personally blame it on Carmack. Why the f*** did he use 128*128 textures as the sky? Every level that use higher resolution on the skytexture looks great.

But either way, no poing in using compression in Q3A anymore.
 
Doomtrooper said:
The side effect is a larger footprint in video card memory, so a 32meg card would Chug bigtime especially with FSAA on.

What? What is this in reply to? No GeForce3 has 32MB of RAM...
 
Galilee said:
While the skybug looks bad I personally blame it on Carmack. Why the f*** did he use 128*128 textures as the sky? Every level that use higher resolution on the skytexture looks great.

Um, JC had nothing to do with creating the textures...

But id's texture artists were always pretty crappy, weren't they?
 
So, are those numbers with the old version of the 8500 anisotropic filtering (as shown in the cool colored number tunnel), or the new version?

(Since nobody bothered to answer if the new version that optimally non axis aligned textures suffered a speed hit)

I think no one answered your question because I don't think it makes sense. :) Nothing has changed with the 8500's anisotropic filtering. The 9700's is different, but the 8500's is the same as it ever was: fast, but with the drawback of the quality degredation as you rotate z toward 45 degrees.
 
Doomtrooper said:
Chalnoth said:
Yeah, 50 fps at 1600x1200. Try turning AA on (in addition to aniso) and looking at the benchmarks. You'll find the GeForce4 will have a fair lead. While neither will be all that playable at 1600x1200, it will be ahead at lower resolutions with, for example, 4x AA.

Sure it was but where I live broadband just became widespread and alot of people played local via Lan Parties :rolleyes:

This wasn't comparing AA numbers Chalnoth..get with the program..it was to show the peformance hit a Geforce 4 was getting with anisotropic filtering since Darkblu considers ATI's inferior, I'm calling Nvidias inferior...not to mention requiring ANOTHER 3rd party tweaker for D3D support.

ANOTHER? as opposed to the first 3rd party tweaker?

btw: why doesnt NVIDIA have aniso in D3D in the drivers control panel? There must be a reason, it would not cost them anything to put it in.
Does it have something to do with the fact that they want games to control it? (just guessing).
 
No no no.

Fuz said:
Heathen said:
Who's saying it's fixxed, ATi? or a bunch of websites? If, it's ATi the question is somewhat valid, if it's a bunch of websites, the question means squat.

Hope this helps.

1.jpg
3.jpg
4.jpg


Seems fixed to me.

Fuz

Notice the second one. 8500, all better, supposedly.
 
Chalnoth said:
Galilee said:
While the skybug looks bad I personally blame it on Carmack. Why the f*** did he use 128*128 textures as the sky? Every level that use higher resolution on the skytexture looks great.

Um, JC had nothing to do with creating the textures...

But id's texture artists were always pretty crappy, weren't they?

hehe okay, my bad. The texture artists (or leveldesigners).
 
I was referring to a Geforce 2 since that is when this game ERA was..sometimes you'd never know it looking at reviews.

There was a 50% peformance hit on 32 meg cards disabling TC completley on Quake 3, BTW how would you go about explaining that to a customer about disabling features...I would like to hear this :D
 
Doomtrooper said:
I was referring to a Geforce 2 since that is when this game ERA was..sometimes you'd never know it looking at reviews.

There was a 50% peformance hit on 32 meg cards disabling TC completley on Quake 3, BTW how would you go about explaining that to a customer about disabling features...I would like to hear this :D

Ehh that was one map that had this problem, and it was fixed in a driver not long after. You can actually play Q3A with a GF2 without compression. Not a big problem.
 
I think I just figured something out.

It has to do with the moire patterns seen in Unreal Tournament on a GeForce4 with anisotropic filtering disabled.

It turns out that it's directly related to texture compression. Without texture compression, there is next to no aliasing. With TC, there is lots of moire apparent (in certain scenarios, anyway) when aniso is disabled.

The only thing that I could imagine this could be a result of is that with TC enabled, MIP maps smaller than 4x4 are not created. 4x4 is the size of one block of a DXTC compressed texture. It should be apparent that MIP maps smaller than that should be created in an uncompressed format, though I'm pretty certain that UT does not do this (the only way it could would be within the driver...).

Now if only I could post some screens to show the issue :p
 
Notice the second one. 8500, all better, supposedly.

Huh?

I thought the second one (8500) was to show 9700's comparison to the "incorrect" implementation on the 8500, shown in the second picture? I mean, I can see how the 8500 is worse than the 9700 and GeForce in that pic. Noticable, but not dramatic.

This may turn out to be REALLY funny indeed. If my understanding is correct, that the second pic shows the "BAD" 8500 implementation, and you are seeing it as some "fixed and correct" version......lol....then what did anyone ever complain about with the 8500 implementation. ;)

Please...someone verify that second shot! :)
 
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