State of 3D Editorial

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by PaulS, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. Arun

    Arun Unknown.
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    NVIDIA doesn't care about who posts information. What matters is who gave those persons this information.

    ---

    BTW, I've seen someone in this thread mention Carmack and Serious Sam are the two last strongholds of OpenGL gaming.
    First, I disagree. Some minor games, such as Savage: The Battle For Newerth ( damn, that game OWNS! ) are OpenGL.

    Also, Serious Sam 2 is mostly Direct3D. That decision seems to have taken to make XBox ports more easy, as well as for other reasons.
    An OpenGL version will still exist, and be a pretty big focus for the team. But the days of Serious Sam being a pure-OGL or mostly OGL game are gone.


    Uttar
     
  2. Saist

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    heh: http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33717136

    I re-wrote the argument there and had mentioned the bug fixes... didn't think to write it into the rant here.
     
  3. Geo

    Geo Mostly Harmless
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    Oh, I get that. I was thinking more along the lines of "You will tell us who the mole is, or. . . well, you wouldn't like to see us get mad, would you? It isn't very nice when we get mad." Like that.
     
  4. g__day

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    I have been pretty impressed with how the folk here have applied a professional eye to Josh's article and helped him gain the experience and contacts he needs to get access to better information. I have also be impressed with Josh for venturing here to take feedback from a some very informed sources - as people have pointed out a pretty daunting task.

    And I like the serious and professional tone most people exhibit when faced daily with folk sprouting all types of opinions. That is another factor which sets B3D apart.

    If 2003 delivered one thing it might be helping alot of "3d review sites" to realise just how complex and challenging it is to analyse balanced 3d performance. With NVidia's NV3x you probably need experience in compiler optimisation techniques to get a better feel for NV3x undelivered potential.

    I wonder if the key learnings from this are (by audience):

    i) PC / 3d review sites - read B3D to understand how to review 3d h/w & s/w
    ii) NVidia - the market has waken up to you - better drivers - prioritise compiler optimisation for NV3x HLSL, stop trying to force proprietary designs on the industry for nefarious reasons and get NV4x out ASAP
    iii) ATi - keep doing it exactly as you are, with the addition of express your points of view on the industry, how to select a card, a day in the life of a game developer etc a bit more frequently, visibly and powerfully - don't hide your light under a barrel
    iv) game developers - scalable graphics engines are Nirvana - thank you - keep them comming, include benchmarks and cheat detects, encourage IHVs to work closer and more transparently with you
    v) OEMs - throw your weight around more when it comes to truth in marketing or practices of the IHVs in benchmarks - more of the "We'll have you nuts if you mis-represent your capabilities to our buyers in leading benchmarks, cheat or cut corners and we'll read you the rite act" :)
    vi) Joe Public - complain loudly when you get taken for a ride, read more about your intended purchases - anywhere - but realise a few sites like B3D do exists and are really showing thought leadership in a hell of alot of areas.

    Its a shame the public don't know were to go for the best information in an are able to get it in an easy to understand form. For movies you have the oscars - and all actors know the effect of winning one. If 3d review prowess were clearly measured and recognised broadly I think its clear B3D would be winning with almost clockwork regularity.
     
  5. webmedic

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    Just to clear this up for you I have a bfg 5200 right here and I'll have you know I dont care what nvidia says in thier liturature this thing says nothing about dx9 anywere on the box. It only states dx8 compatable. Try running any game in dx9 and see what happens. If it runs in dx9 at all(becuase nvidia is not bumping it down to dx8 with cheats) it will run at about 4 or 5 fps max. That is not dx9 in my book.
     
  6. webmedic

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    the thing you seem to miss is that fp16 is not in the dx9 spec. the minimum is fp24 so ati cards do meet dx9 spec and nvidia cards dont unless they run in fp32 which they are very bad at. In other words the only way for nvidia to compete is to simply not run as a dx9 part at all. If they say we do dx9 but only in fp16 to stay competative then it is not dx9. Whatever it is they are not running in dx9.
     
  7. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Interesting to hear that they don't claim it's dx9 on the box...I wonder if it's for legal reasons?
     
  8. webmedic

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    same here I was on another forum about a month ago or so and there was some discussion about it. I cant remember exactly what was said but it was very interesting that someone mentioned this thing so I looked. I wish I remember what it was about but more or less it was down ot wheather or not they could be sued for false advertising. In the case of the bfg 5200 whatever was bad they cant be sued since they dont claim anywere that it is or can do dx9.
     
  9. PaulS

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    No, because they CAN technically run in DX9. nVidia effectively don't let you, but they didn't lie when they said it's a DX9 card.
     
  10. webmedic

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    Oh boy i wish I could say what that other forum thread was about but i dont rememeber. I think it was discussing the possibility of the 5200 emulating some of dx9 in software but Ioculd be wrong.

    Whatever it was there was a legitimate reason others were talking about sueing nvidia for false advertising. Really though this is serious. Just wish i could rememebr what it was.
     
  11. nelg

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    FP16 is in the spec. It’s partial precision. Wether you are allowed to use FP16 when full precision is called for (min Fp24), that is another story.
     
  12. PaulS

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    That's true IIRC, but I doubt it would hold up in court as grounds for legal action.
     
  13. Hellbinder

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    I would imagine that a number of things would be different if the FX had hit first. One thing it would have been clocked lower without a leaf blower. Thus it would be about the speed of the non ultra model at MOST. Which means the 9700pro still launching on time would have immidiately out classed it. Secondly.. People would have made a lot bigger deal out of it not being Truely DX9 complient, becuase there would have been no lead time to gloss it over. Then there is the issue that FP24 is STILL the min spec for DX9. It still would have multiple missing features.. in fact the Fx line still is to this day. The R300 would have been the performance leader and had more and better shipping features.

    But you can believe whatever you want.
     
  14. webmedic

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    Oh true I just thought it was interesting that it does not say dx9 anywere on the box. Also my father in law bought the stupid thing thinking he was getting a good deal so I ended up with the stupid thing and he has a radeon 9500 now. So one thing is for sure nvidias lying pr is working great for the regular Joe type out there.
     
  15. Hellbinder

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    I tell ya... The more I learn about Nvidia the more I wonder why anyone would EVER want to work there. It reminds me of a concentration camp or something. Really messed up.

    I would also like to comment that I have personally considered Brian Burke the Single biggest low like unethical lying *beep* since the days he worked at 3dFX. he has only gotten Worse since he went to work for Nvidia.
     
  16. Pete

    Pete Moderate Nuisance
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    My pleasure, Josh. I enjoy your work, and I don't think that bad-mouthing you as a person will improve your work, especially considering how responsive you've been following your article's publication. The reason I frequent B3D is because the majority of posters here act the same way. I don't know of another 3D forum where so many authors from other sites congregate, and while B3D's founders have a lot to do with maintaining that collegial atmosphere, no doubt that responsibility has shifted somewhat more to the other forum members as they've multiplied.

    Now, carry on feeding my 3D addiction. :) Maybe you can pick up some of Uttar's sources on the rebound. :D
     
  17. rwolf

    rwolf Rock Star
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    I would say marketing does a great job.

    http://mirror.ati.com/vortal/r350/flash/9800educational/index.html

    Ever see anything like this on Nvidia's website?
     
  18. rwolf

    rwolf Rock Star
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    Well Josh is ok in my books. He is man enough to admit making mistakes and that is pretty cool.
     
  19. nelg

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    Rwolf, that is impressive but nonetheless it is still just an overview. I was referring to specifics. I would like to see the marketing dept. explain things like how FP24 is the right choice for today and the near future. How full trilinear filtering looks compared to quasi trilinear. Demonstrate the difference between different ways of doing AA and Anisotropic filtering. If they could produce something like this and include it on the driver cd I think it would be beneficial to both users and reviewers (present company excluded Dave). As I have mentioned before in another thread I find it simply amazing that in the minds of the general gaming public nV probably has the perception as being the leader in image quality when that is not the case.
     
  20. stevem

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    Not likely. The OEMs are pissed for various reasons, but have to take the IHV's spiel at face value. Apart from board level & general architecture briefs, they're as much in the dark as everyone else. In fact, the big OEMs have sought diversification for a long time, only to be realised relatively recently (again for various reasons). The name of the game is to be in the game. Hedging is only a security net.

    Aside: There's been some mention of "reviewer whitepapers". Something akin is produced for the OEMs. These are tougher to get a glimpse of. Perhaps some enterprising soul might enquire about the "NV30 OEM whitepaper(s)" & then correlate with Triantos' recent comments...
     
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