*split* multiplatform console-world problems + Image Quality Debate

[patsu]

Interesting read about the challenges of game development on top of launch OS.

That's why I wanted to know the architecture, run-time policies, and restrictions before jumping to #CU and other more low level details.

 

[trainplane]

Why? It has a bleeding edge TOF camera sensor, that previously has only been available in devices costing thousands. I don't know what goes into making a TOF camera or device, so maybe it's just as cheap as a normal CCD, but the key issue for me is I don't know. Thus I trust you have some insider knowledge telling you the tech is cheap!

The original Kinect supposedly had a BOM of $56. If this TOF is using CMOS which is likely the case, it shouldn't be much more expensive. MS bought a company that made TOF sensors based on CMOS so it would be a good guess. Camera sensors are cheap in general. Did you know the iPad camera supposedly has a BOM of $6? If you were a betting person, would you say MS blew over $100 for the camera or under? I'd put my money on under.

 

[trainplane]

Ultimately I don't think this was an engineering failure on Microsoft's part. They want more of a do all machine that can break even at launch and downscale on costs well, and they were willing to go with less power this gen to meet that goal. Launch woe's aside, the software side should get better. If the situation ended up being 1080p on ps4 and 900p on xb1, I honestly don't think they would mind that so long as they get those disposable cash spending casuals and hybrid casual/core people on their box. At the end of the day it's the cash they are chasing, which they have identified as more than just going after core gamers.

When you think about it, casuals and hybrid core/casuals won't be too affected, and graphics whores will be on pc anyways. They risk losing some of the core gamers but presumably they think it's a calculated risk that will financially pay off in the end.

If XB1 ends up being 900/60 vs 1080/60, few would care outside of forum people but the fact that right now, COD is closer to the 360 resolution than PS4 makes for a story that's being picked up by every tech publisher and even non-tech publishers. That would be an engineering failure in my mind. If they get there in 2014 COD, the story might die. I don't know if they'll get there.

Also, the PC argument isn't a good one to use. You always want to get the best hardware out of anything you purchase. Take the iPad for instance. They'll never be as good as a PC but Apple pushes really hard to make their AX chip essentially double in speed each year. And there's no more a casuals system than the iPad.

 

[KSterson]

FXAA vs MLAA, the latter wins most of the time

 

[Laa-Yosh]

So they are hoping they can get to 1080p native on the XB1 later on in the cycle. He didn't sound very positive that they can.

Or maybe he just doesn't want to openly admit that the 720p thing is the result of a f***up?

Whether it's on their side or on MS is another question. But I'm kinda sure that the hardware is perfectly capable, they just somehow did not have enough time to make it work.

 

[novcze]

According to nobcze the black isn't 0,0,0 suggesting the ps4 wasn't actually in full mode at all despite df stating they played around with the 'dashboard' making sure full was enabled.

I'm not saying that black wasn't 0,0,0 in their original uncompressed capture (is not possible to know as I'm not part of DF), I'm only saying that compressed 60 fps video available on their page for download is in Limited RGB range (black 16,15,16)

 

[rokkerkory]

Opportunities here for MS to get to work and iron this stuff out early in the generation cycle! I expect more parity this time next year please.

 

[AlNom]

The YUV 4:2:0 encoding probably converts to [16,235].

 

[patsu]

Or maybe he just doesn't want to openly admit that the 720p thing is the result of a f***up?

Whether it's on their side or on MS is another question. But I'm kinda sure that the hardware is perfectly capable, they just somehow did not have enough time to make it work.

They are not the only ones who had to down-scale though. There was probably some mismatch of tech expectation, and too many things were changing.

I bumped into a coworker who used to work in the game industry last week. His buddies (3 of them) work in the CoD studio (Infinity Ward ?). They warned him about some MS platform issues months ago.

It may not be a purely studio factor.

MS need to do something about the problem, if not already.

 

[Solarus]

even though this is the digital foundry discussion, i wanted to bring attention to this for a moment.

He went on to explain that there's no agenda or definite reason for the difference. “There’s no maliciousness, there’s no specific reason why one’s 720p, one’s 1080p," he said. "That’s just the way the optimisation came out to. To keep a smooth frame rate we needed to be 720p on Xbox One. That being said, it is being upscaled to 1080p, so it is outputting 1080p on your TV, and for the most part the game does look really good. Some people actually think the textures look a little bit nicer maybe on Xbox than they do on PS4.

assuming that the textures for both are actually the same, could this be evidence that the xbo's scaler actually does throw that horrible sharpening filter over everything by default?

im sure once the digital foundry comparisons come out we'll be able to figure to discern for ourselves. but kind seems like thats the case at least to me.

 

[taisui]

how is it horrible if it make some think its better?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The only counterpoint I can come up with is that Crytek is apparently able to deal with these platform issues. Yes, they also don't have to deal with any other platforms, but still - it doesn't look like an impossible situation.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Also, consider IW's position - how many of their sales are going to be on the X1? The next installment will replace Ghosts in a year, it's not like they're making the Halo of the platform that will keep on selling for years. There's a point where it makes more sense to chose the easier way.

 

[patsu]

What XB1 game does Crytek do ? What is the resolution and framerate ?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Crytek is working on Ryse, and yes it's 900p and 30fps, but it's also one of (if not the) the most technologically advanced games today. Which should make any dev tool issues even more problematic for them compared to the port of the yearly iteration of COD.

 

[Billy Idol]

The only counterpoint I can come up with is that Crytek is apparently able to deal with these platform issues. Yes, they also don't have to deal with any other platforms, but still - it doesn't look like an impossible situation.

Yeah, but that is not the point. We will never see a Ryse PS4...so we can't use it as a reference. And I agree that it looks fantastic...although I especially would not use this game to counter nightmare development stories...

Note, that a lot of B3Ders brought up this very same argument in discussions about PS3 exclusive titles. And it is ok, because it is true.

I am personally really not worried about X1 development...launch games have nothing to do with reality imo, see X360 and PS3 which turned out to be quite similar at the end and not X360 >>> PS3.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Again, I'm only talking about IW blaming the dev tools for the drastic resolution decrease. Logic dictates that if there are such serious issues, then Crytek should also have such problems.

However in practice we see that Crytek is able to deal with the issues (how hard it is for them is of course another question). I'm only pointing this out - you can all draw your own conclusions.

 

[Billy Idol]

Again, I'm only talking about IW blaming the dev tools for the drastic resolution decrease. Logic dictates that if there are such serious issues, then Crytek should also have such problems.

However in practice we see that Crytek is able to deal with the issues (how hard it is for them is of course another question). I'm only pointing this out - you can all draw your own conclusions.

First footage of Ryse were 1080p iirc...right or wrong? Not sure about this...but if true, it could point to some unexpected issues...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

It could have been 900p and simply noone noticed it
But even if they went from native to upscaled, it's still not cutting more than half of the pixels...

 

[patsu]

Again, I'm only talking about IW blaming the dev tools for the drastic resolution decrease. Logic dictates that if there are such serious issues, then Crytek should also have such problems.

However in practice we see that Crytek is able to deal with the issues (how hard it is for them is of course another question). I'm only pointing this out - you can all draw your own conclusions.

I don't think IW blame it on the devtool. In the article, they did not blame any specific issue(s). ^_^

They simply painted the difficult circumstances they had to work through.