*spin-off* TV/Console scaling quality

Hmmm...

It's kind of misleading. I have the Panasonic TC-46G15 at home & I also posted the time about it.

The G15 doesn't do 5ms of lag like the internet page says. but more like 30ms. Also you should also note that most classic hardcore player are searching for the SD result & not the HD one. It's not hard for PC gamer since TN monitor panel(newer model are lagless) is the way to go & also less expensive.

Here a showcase.
G15



LZ800

 

Great way of testing lag!

 

Heh, that almost makes me want to dust off my old CRT to do latency tests on my displays.

Regards,
SB

 

Mr Deap, thanks for that. really nice read.

also at what setting are the displays at? 60hz or 75hz or 85hz?

 

Wouldn't it be nice if developers would just lay off the eye candy rat race enough to allow their games to run natively at 720p? Uhg. Scaler arguments are just painful.

At least on PC you have a choice. You can just run lower details and have crispy pixels at native resolution, or deal with always-imperfect scaling. I tend to prefer lower framerate or details over blur. Or you can use an ancient CRT lol.

Of course, consoles have an advantage in that you sit far back from the TV so you can't see the lost detail as well.

 

That's something interesting I just noticed from those pictures of MrDeaps.

While the G15 has more processing delay, it appears to have much faster switching pixels than the LZ800. Either that or he just coincidentally took the pictures at the worst possible time for the LZ800 and the best possible time for the G15.

Regards,
SB

 

Thanks, my Bravia isn't on that list, but I did notice that the Sony's have the exact same amount of lag whether game mode is on or off. Which supports my observations with my set (and means i dont have to use game mode, which disables frame interpolation which I like using as it boosts the XBR4's motion resolution)

And i've noticed that the picture seems to be better on my TV with the 360 scaling to 1080p compared to the TV scaling of the 360's 720p output (and the scaling of the PS3's 720p output too).

 

That's probably due that you actually have overscan on your Sony too in 720P. Check post #7

 

I have a question..my TV is 1366X768 native. Through VGA (what I use) my 360 doesn't have that exact output resolution option, the closest one is 1360X768, 6 pixels off.

Now, what I'm trying to do is minimize lag. I assume that using the 360's scaler will mean less lag than using the TV's, correct?

Therefore rather than say, setting the 360 to 1280X720, and letting the TV upscale to 1366X768, I figure it would be best to set the 360 to 1366X768, so the TV is not upscaling...except as mentioned above there's no exact 1366X768 output in the 360 menu, the closest is 1360X768, which is what I have it set at.

I'm just wondering if, even though it's only 6 pixels, I'm getting hit with a double scaling whammy (lag) there...first 360 720P>1360X768, then TV 1360X768>1366X768?

For TV scaling, is less scaling = less lag? Is scaling from 720P to 1366X768 less laggy than 720p to say, 1080p? Or does it not matter, a scale is a scale?

And really..the whole nature of scaling on 360 confuses me...what about the many games that aren't 720P native such as Modern Warfare 2? Are they introducing scalar lag by virtue of the 360 upscaling them to, say, 720P?

In other words my thinking is, 720P game, 360 set at 720P, =no scaling lag from that side of the equation. Am I wrong? Now what if it's a 600P game? What goes on there?

 

Depends on your TV. Mine is the same native resolution as yours, but when I put it into 1360x768 on VGA, I get 1:1 mode and lose 3x768 pixels on each side. If I put it into any resolution above that I lose 1:1 mode and it auto-scales down to 1366x768.

 

Can the PS3 output 1920x1200? I know the 360 can't. I'm trying to avoid display lag caused by double scaling. Right now I have both of them scaling to 1080p output, but then my monitor must be scaling again to 1920x1200. Maybe that happens in negligible time, because it just needs to add the letter boxing, but it would be nice if I could be sure.

Just remembered my monitor has a 1:1 mode, which should avoid any scaling. I used to have my Wii hooked up, so I was using one of the scaling modes.

 

How would I be able to tell if I'm in 1:1 mode?

I'm pretty dumb at this stuff.

 

My TV lets me know what mode I'm in when I press the "Display" button twice. Your TV might have a similar function. Another way would be to get up close and see if there are small black bars on the sides of the image. I can visually verify that its 3 pixels on each side.

 

i know i'm going to get flamed but i have to ask, i have a dlp tv do i need to worry about all this display lag stuff

 

This is the tech forum, you're not supposed to get flamed here!

All display technologies have the chance for lag depending on design considerations by the manufacturer. Any time you stick an image processor in the video path you have to make sure you choose something with as little delay as possible. The application and cost is generally what makes the difference. You see CRTs being used to test with because they generally have hands off image processing.

You'll have to test your TV or find someone else who has. Another option is to find out the image processor used in your TV and see if other sets with the same processor have lag. It doesn't 100% mean your set will, but it can be a good indicator.

 

Toshiba - 65HM167 this is what i have, any advise?

 

Yes, this is how it is with all XBox 360 via the VGA cable, also if using a DVI connection. You just cannot get 1366x768 out of the 360 chip. If you are wondering why this is so, 1360 is divisible evenly by 8, 1366 is not.

As I understand it, and as my experience bears out, yes.

Your TV should be smart enough to figure this out. It's getting a signal but being told not to bother with three lines on each side. It's as close to a 1:1 mode as you will get with this resolution, I'd argue that it is a 1:1 mode but, on some sets, I dunno. I would expect, however, that if it is working with the image that it is probably doing it this way. My own (Panasonic plasma monitor) does not work with this resolution via DVI, because it is processed more at the set, and because it isn't getting a standard res, blanking out. The VGA connection on the same screen however, just has a straight connection through, no chips at all between the signal and where it's got to go. Most sets seem to go this route and a lot of 2D fighters in particular have opted to go the VGA route with HDTVs when faster responsiveness is important, though this isn't a cure-all with every set out there as some just have inherent lag with the physical display.

The best thing to do is something such as you saw on the last page, get a CRT and connect them both to a single computer, run your timecode and snap a photo. Different sets just work with the signals differently, or even as I've mentioned, the same set might work with different signals differently. You are definitely on the right track though as the less scaling that you can introduce, the more responsive your game is apt to be. The 360's GPU scaler is just "really good."

I'm pretty sure that COD4 (et al) scaled from their 640p (or whatever it was) to the resolution you set in your dashboard but I'm sure better observers or better memories than mine can correct me on that. But in your 720=720 equation then yes, there should be no more lag than whatever the set can physically manage to display.

 

I've seen other tests before that claim that Sony's V series is the best LCD overall, so test results vary greatly depending on how and naturally, who performs them. Bear in mind that this was a recent test with newer models (XBR's are known as S series in Europe)

I'd have to disagree that game mode on an XBR4 doesn't make a difference. With fighters, particularly something frame sensitive like Tekken, it's noticeable. For most other genres, as long as you keep all post processing off, you'd hardly notice a difference between the modes. Using your console's scaler is better too, since that's one more post processing to avoid (as light as it may be)

Once you turn anything on, particularly the 120Hz mode, it's incredibly laggy. Not to mention that there are other motion artifacts in that mode too even with movies. Scaling quality is generally good, and with lower resolutions, the TV does a better job since both consoles seem to crush blacks while upscaling 480i content.

Turn off the overscan mode though at 720p. Just go to the XMB (TV that is), and then Screen, while making sure you're running 720p native content. Set the field to - 1 and you're done. Naturally, set 1080p to Full Pixel mode.

 

Delete

 

Doubling a pixel dimension is a lot worse than an 11% increase in scaling. It's about the amount of scaling in a particular dimension.