*spin-off* TV/Console scaling quality

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Alucardx23, Oct 15, 2009.

  1. Alucardx23

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    It would be nice to see a comparison on 720P vs 1080P on Xbox 360 to see how much the upscaler on 360 helps image quality and also how it compares to a dedicated upscaler.
     
  2. Silent_Buddha

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    In the case of Tekken it wouldn't matter. If you set the X360 to 1080p output only for the game.

    The could would still render to 768, downsample to 720p. At which point the X360 would take that 720p output and upscale it to 1080p.

    That would only matter if your HDTV was a 1080p set with a budget scaler, in which case you'd definitely want your 360 doing the upscaling. Otherwise a good HDTV scaler would look pretty much identical to the X360 upscaling it to 1080p.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  3. Alucardx23

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    Yeah I’m aware of that problem with Tekken 6, I’m talking about the 360 upscaler in a more general way, does it improves image quality and by how much, or is something that the 360 has only to be compatible with TVs that don’t support 720P.
     
  4. Kasersky

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    Personally i do think that the 360 does do a bit extra when it upscales compared to standard tv upscalers. I've compared the difference between 720p and 1080p on my 1920x1080 lcd display and i notice slight differences between the two particularly polygon edges. The 360 upscaler makes the edges a lil sharper.
     
  5. djskribbles

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    Not all TV scalers are equal, but the 360's scaler is better than most.
     
    #5 djskribbles, Oct 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2009
  6. TheAlSpark

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    There are also several options for scaling via Xenos from what I understand. And of course, developers can also implement their own software scaling despite Xenos' own ability.
     
  7. Mr Deap

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    Well I have both system, but the problem often come down to the TV scaler when it display 720P.

    Well most people doesn't know they are playing the game with heavy overscan & all 4 corner of the actual game screen have been cut-off when the system output 720P.

    My preference go toward 1080P upscale via system scaler due that I can get my 1:1 pixel ratio out of my 1080P panel.

    http://i35.tinypic.com/2dlkc92.th.jpg
    http://i36.tinypic.com/11vp09d.jpg

    http://i35.tinypic.com/o53urk.jpg
    http://i37.tinypic.com/34esui0.jpg

    http://i38.tinypic.com/kd4i38.jpg
    http://i33.tinypic.com/a9moon.jpg

    It apply to most 1080P HDTV. Also a lot of 720P panel have overscan which doesn't help much with the picture quality.


    Please do not use img tags with large file sizes. -AlS
     
  8. SG79

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    Almost every panel I've tested or owned has a "full pixel" mode for both 720p and 1080p.

    I turn off overscan on both modes to get the full picture typically (for example, I get to see the bars in R&C Future).

    As djskribbles said, the scaler on Xenos is really useful if your TV's own isn't that great. I know I made a good use of it when I had an AQUOS since their scalers are sub par.
     
  9. djskribbles

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    Same, although so far, I've only owned Samsung LCD's.
     
  10. Kasersky

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    *request spin-off* for console and tv upscalers. For my samsung LCD p2570HD you just have to mess with the setting enough to get rid of the overscan.
     
  11. RobertR1

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    By default most panels from the factory will come with overscan on mainly because broadcast can often have overscan issues that varies from channel from channel.

    Most people DO NOT mess with their TV settings onc they get them home.

    TV manufacturers do not want call after call about from Jim wondering why certain channels are showing solid lines at the edge of the TV while others work fine and that he needs a tech to come out and fix it.

    I personally have my Comcast cable on a diff input than my 360/PS3/HD DVD player. The cable channels have overscan issues thus I keep overscan on for the input comcast is on and use "dot by dot" for everything else.
     
  12. thambos

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    what's considered a good scaler though? My Vizio Gallevia GV52L looks pretty bad w/ my PS3 games, presumably because of it's scaler. Which is some sort of Genesis scaler.

    My Samsung LN40A630 seems to scale better (no idea what scaler it's using it just says "built-in image scaler to handle inputs from a variety of digital and analog audio/video sources." in the manual), but still looks more jaggy than 360 versions of cross-console games. The last one i tried where i saw it was the Brutal Legend demo.
     
    #12 thambos, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2009
  13. Silent_Buddha

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    Well older Vizio sets had some pretty atrocious scalers, but I believe it's improved greatly with their recent sets. And their more expensive lines have generally been decent I "think."

    Newer Samsungs should have generally really good scalers, although I'm not sure about their budget lines. Older Samsungs skimped a bit on the lower end.

    As time goes on, quality of scaling is slowly migrating down to the cheaper LCD HDTVs. I'm not sure if the really cheap budget set's will ever have really good scaling.

    The cheaper the set, the more likely they'll have skimped on the scaler as part of cost cutting measures to get it down to that price point.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  14. Mr Deap

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    Nah, it's because they don't full screen for 720P. There's various size option, except full frame for 720P.

    That's the coolest feature about my panel:


    A good scaler on a HDTV, especially for gaming would be a low input lag thorough all resolutions. Seem kind of silly, but I can play old games. :cool:

    You can see it lag a bit under 480i in slow motion, but you really have to seek for it, lol.

    The size of the frame on screen is due to the manifacturer choice.
     
  15. SG79

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    Well, I've tested out Samsungs and Sonys primarily and they do; it would be extremely odd for Panasonic not to have such an option. I have a nearly 2 year old XBR4 that has the option for a full frame/sans overscan 720p view. Of course, it's not called full frame or pixel, just a +/- view. Look for it.

    On default, it's exactly the difference you noted earlier with the screens.

    Personally, even though the scaler on my TV is pretty good, I still have a CRT on the side for PS2/GC games. The 360's BC may be limited (and limited to the games I have), but 4X MSAA does a world of difference as does the improved texture filtering.
     
  16. Mr Deap

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    I recently bought last week a LG Flatron W2253V(rated at 50,000:1 & 2ms). It's a TN PC monitor that support 1920X1080 with HDMI, DVI & VGA Input.
    [​IMG]

    Indeed in my surprise, this monitor do not overscan 720P. It was cool to see a full frame in 720P, but... It looked rather bad in comparison to my Panasonic in overall picture quality.

    I also did some test. I found Wipeou7 youtube video about the XBOX 360 not doing real 1080P output.


    I went out to seek if it was true.

    I put a grid pic on a USB pen & open the pic with the XBOX 360. Indeed it was showing an upscaled picture, though... I felt that the whole dashboard is actually upscaled.

    So I went a bit farther to see if it's actually only feeding upscaled 1080P output. I went & encode a video in WMV with a 1080P grid.

    Here the result:


    Well it look like it's feeding real 1080P, though it was kind of obvious since there's no actual limitation in the resolution, not really a question of strength.

    Here the 1080P video file to do as a test that can also be tested at home.

    1:1 pixel mapping 1080P WMV
    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N0HXERYC
     
  17. grandmaster

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    All you've really discovered is that the Xbox 360 photo viewer is absolutely awful. It even blurs 720p images!

    1080p games and videos render at 1080p, there's not much doubt about that.
     
  18. (((interference)))

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    Does anyone know whether I should let my 360 handle 1080p scaling? Or will the quality be better if I leave it to my TV (a 2007 XBR4 Bravia)

    And which method would have less input lag?
     
  19. specwarGP2

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    XBR4? definitely let your TV hande it.
     
  20. rekator

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    For less lag use 360 scaler and shoot down all the enhancements effects of the TV.
    A test of different TV lag input here:
    http://translate.google.com/transla...-Gaming-TV-Test.html&rurl=translate.google.fr
     
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