*Spin-off Thread* Subjective Thread of Pushing Consoles (rename #1)

[Pete]

Hold on, I'm getting my mod hat...OK.

GuestLV, what exactly are you trying to prove? Than Cell+RSX is more "powerful" than Xenon+RSX? That Cell+RSX is so obviously superior to Xenon+Xenos that the former can be considered a generation beyond the latter? That versus articles that point out the pitfalls of multi-platform development somehow correlate to technical platform mastery (i.e., "maximizing" the hardware) of single-platform exclusives? Sounds ... fruitful (and novel).

More specifically, can you explain exactly what you mean by "Yes ,but Cell in KZ2 boost + 40% performance for visuals(what i read) to RSX . I doubt that XCPU can add the same amount of %"? Does Cell make RSX take 40% less time for certain tasks? Does it allow for 40% higher framerate? Are we to assume Xenos and RSX start at the same base level? If not, then do we judge a CPU by how much it can offload graphical tasks from a GPU? Can we honestly extrapolate 'Cell is better than Xenon' from that '40%' number, or would it be more sensible to allow that figure to remain in its useful context (namely, KZ2 as developed by Ins^H^H^H Guerilla on PS3)?

And I don't know how GAF does things, but I would suggest we all familiarize ourselves with the Console FAQ (ctrl-f 'name calling').

 

[zoekimball]

Quite the difference between colourful and plain ugly. You need to stop getting so defensive about everything.

For example, a game that is very colourful and certainly no ugly duck is Uncharted. Does that render your statement invalid, or is it just another opinion?

@Pete, KZ2 is developed by Guerilla Games.

 

[Neb]

I have no idea, I can't judge tech either. But though people on this forum say Viva Pinata is more impressive technically than Gears of War, very very few people pick the former over the latter graphically. To me that suggests that they're doing something wrong.

Might have to do with viva Pinata being more "cute" in design. While Gears of War more "mature". Even their homepage has those vibes!

 

[vanquish]

Thing is the internet is not the general public, the vast majority of gamers have know idea what pixels, textures or whatever are, nor do they care. To be honest the most important technical aspect regarding KZ2 for me is that the developers have been given time to polish the game to the point where it actually feels finished. Quite unlike many other next gen games. Oh and lets not get into Gears KZ2 debate its pointless, they are two fantastic looking games. However both for me fall to Nuts and Bolts, truely astounding looking game!

Hear, Hear, Rare really have a gem of an engine there. And I at one point thought that GoW was undoubtedly technically superior to VP as well.

IMO they are the best 360 devloper technically, especially since Bungie underperformance with Halo 3. However they have high turnover, having already released 5 titles for the 360, so they're not really taking their time with each game.

And what's Nesh banging on about roughness in BK3? It's 720p 2xAA image is not rough at all, at least on my set. Looked better than Ratchet, which was too blurry for my liking, Rare's art is better too. Anyone notice the great glass shaders in the Showdown Town windows?

And is Gears 2 really only par technically? Doesn't seem that way.

I must say, I've always wanted to see a thread like this, I made these observations 2 years ago.

MS really need more technically capable 1st party studios, the only capable ones left are Rare, especially since Bungie went independent, and Bioware and Bizarre went MP. And Alan Wake will look good on PC, but on 360, they haven't even shown any screens yet, which is telling.

If we compare the graphics posterboys of the two systems, which from general consensus will be Gears 2 and Killzone 2. We have one game that runs on an MP engine, originally designed for PCs, that was in development for 2 years (with UT3 coming out inbetween) and on the other hand we have a game in development for 4 years with an unlimited budget and a significantly larger team, that runs on a ground up engine with a PS3 optimal design (deferred renderering).

Obviously this hardly an apples to apples comparision, there has been no comparable development going on on the 360 side.

 

[GuestLV]

GuestLV, what exactly are you trying to prove? Than Cell+RSX is more "powerful" than Xenon+RSX?

Im not a fanboy hope you too Im just try to discuss here ,not to prove anything

Does Cell make RSX take 40% less time for certain tasks? Does it allow for 40% higher framerate?

I think something like this indeed .Clearly true that Cell allows dev to do richer visuals

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think something like this indeed .Clearly true that Cell allows dev to do richer visuals

How exactly are you quanitifying that? Where does the '40%' come from?

 

[dubyateeeff]

With KZ2 Sony has proved more or less statements like ''next gen start from us" and ''future proof platform '' , if MS will not answer it may be a serious knock off for them

So KZ2 has shown that "next gen start from us". So what you really are saying is that there currently are no next-gen games for PS3. Please tell me if I am twisting your logic because it really doesn't feel like it.

Also, KZ2 is Sony's answear to Halo and Gears. Sony is the reactive one trying to catch up on the FPS-genre, not MS. So it is Sony that has gotten the serious knock, until now.

KZ2 technical prowess won't sell many PS3s with the price being the way it is. Just look at MGS4, arguable the best looking game until then, with lots of brand recognition.

 

[Nano]

I think something like this indeed .Clearly true that Cell allows dev to do richer visuals

What is that 'something'?

Performance is very context dependent.

I have no idea, I can't judge tech either. But though people on this forum say Viva Pinata is more impressive technically than Gears of War, very very few people pick the former over the latter graphically. To me that suggests that they're doing something wrong.

Well, as you know art and to a good extent 'quality' are very subjective.

Comparing which is more technically impressive, I guess you could also say that is a little subjective too as they have different goals, although I'd probably go for Viva Pinata as its got some very complex algorithms being used and is that bit different to most other 360 titles.

Different people look at games in different ways.

 

[PARANOiA]

Just look at MGS4, arguable the best looking game until then, with lots of brand recognition.

MGS4 has been the only game at the current price-point to sell PS3's. That's probably the worst example you could have chosen

 

[Nesh]

And what's Nesh banging on about roughness in BK3? It's 720p 2xAA image is not rough at all, at least on my set. Looked better than Ratchet, which was too blurry for my liking, Rare's art is better too. Anyone notice the great glass shaders in the Showdown Town windows?

I tried both Banjo and Rachet on my set and the latter looked better looking than Banjo on mine. It didnt look blurry at all. Its art that seems to be what you like more in Banjo which can be subjective regarding which is better. And yes it looked rough. I think it was that glossy effect they chose, the animation and the framerate to blame.

Rachet was noticeably better looking on my set.

I was expecting Banjo to have a near Pixar quality like Rachet based on what I was hearing. Well when I saw it, it seemed like wishful thinking. It was only in style that approached a Pixar movie.

 

[zoekimball]

MGS4 has been the only game at the current price-point to sell PS3's. That's probably the worst example you could have chosen

White Knight Chronicles and most other high profile games released for PS3 in Japan would like a word with you.

Also, LBP, Resistance 2, GT5 have moved *some* systems.

This generalization is just pointless.

 

[Rangers]

White Knight Chronicles and most other high profile games released for PS3 in Japan would like a word with you.

Also, LBP, Resistance 2, GT5 have moved *some* systems.

This generalization is just pointless.

WKC moved systems in Japan?

I think the Ps3 just saw the holiday spike all consoles do, and it was actually less than 2007..

 

[dubyateeeff]

MGS4 has been the only game at the current price-point to sell PS3's. That's probably the worst example you could have chosen

Hehe, my point was that KZ2 while it will probably sell a lot of hardware it won't make much of a difference at the high pricepoint that PS3 has, just like MGS4.

 

[zoekimball]

I think the Ps3 just saw the holiday spike all consoles do

How will you know the difference?

Quit arguing a moot point.

 

[Nightz]

I really don't see what Microsoft has to answer to here? KZ2's engine definitely has its technical merits and the big budget allows very high quality art. But generally speaking from what I've seen of Killzone, in terms of the visual detail being rendered on screen, its not exactly beyond whats being done in similar high profile Xbox 360 and PC games. The big deal here is Platform exclusives tend to get alot of hype and fanboys.

 

[PARANOiA]

White Knight Chronicles and most other high profile games released for PS3 in Japan would like a word with you.

Also, LBP, Resistance 2, GT5 have moved *some* systems.

This generalization is just pointless.

There's no need to be so defensive.

Also, I'd disagree that the games you're talking about moved hardware at all. Simply look at any plot of games released over time along with sales movements and you'll see MGS4 had an impact, whereas LBP, R2 (GT5P minor but there is noise around that release) has absolutely no notable impact - nothing within the same ballpark that MGS4 had.

 

[BadTB25]

There's no need to be so defensive.

Also, I'd disagree that the games you're talking about moved hardware at all. Simply look at any plot of games released over time along with sales movements and you'll see MGS4 had an impact, whereas LBP, R2 (GT5P minor but there is noise around that release) has absolutely no notable impact - nothing within the same ballpark that MGS4 had.

I agree.

If anything NPD data seems to support that these games didn't push the expected software sales with the current user base.

I fail to see how it may have pushed hard ware sales. Anecdotal evidence, I know of no one that purchased the system specifically because of those games. I know of at least 3 that purchased the system for MGS4 (me included) and Uncharted though.

In fact, didn't the PS3 sell less than the previous months when those games released compared to the same time in the previous year?

 

[szymku]

Also, I'd disagree that the games you're talking about moved hardware at all. Simply look at any plot of games released over time along with sales movements and you'll see MGS4 had an impact, whereas LBP, R2 (GT5P minor but there is noise around that release) has absolutely no notable impact - nothing within the same ballpark that MGS4 had.

I think you are underestimating GT5P... My friend is working at local Sony Center and they are constantly playing GT5P on those big flat Tv's. According to him, they are sellig lots and lots of consoles to 40 years old folks who came to buy camera or TV and saw GT5P on the entrance.... People (including mid age casuals) are amased by this game....

 

[Nano]

In terms of objective sales though, unless I am wrong, I still don't think the prologue game was as much of a h/w mover in the grand scale of things. I think the full version of Gran Turismo 5 will be an even bigger hardware mover than MGS4 however.

 

[catisfit]

In terms of objective sales though, unless I am wrong, I still don't think the prologue game was as much of a h/w mover in the grand scale of things. I think the full version of Gran Turismo 5 will be an even bigger hardware mover than MGS4 however.

In Europe, especially. Europeans love Gran Turismo.