*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

So should they sacrifice nextgen performance to add in backwards compatibility or raise the cost $100?

Maybe they could create 2 skus... one that has ps3 hardware and one that doesn't. But look at how much $100 impacted MS sales this gen. Look how well wii sold. Look how poorly ps3 initially sold.

Increasing price can be really negative. Walmart got to where it is by selling papertowels for $8 while competitors soild it for $9.
 
So should they sacrifice nextgen performance to add in backwards compatibility or raise the cost $100?

When a Xbox 360 or PS3 doesn't cost much more than $100 secondhand...DUMB in every way. I just dont get any BC arguments as rational at all when the solution is so simple, just buy/keep the original console!

If this is too much trouble, then you dont care very much about those old games anyway!

The summation of my argument has always been, if it's free, of course BC would be nice. But at almost any cost, let alone the relatively high one it actually is, it isn't worth it.
 
When a Xbox 360 or PS3 doesn't cost much more than $100 secondhand...DUMB in every way. I just dont get any BC arguments as rational at all when the solution is so simple, just buy/keep the original console!

If this is too much trouble, then you dont care very much about those old games anyway!

The summation of my argument has always been, if it's free, of course BC would be nice. But at almost any cost, let alone the relatively high one it actually is, it isn't worth it.

Exactly. And with the slowing advancement of computational power and the sacrifices in bandwidth and cpu performance these apus have no way should they make any sacrifices to performance to maintain a pricetag, nor an increased pricetag while maintaining same nextgen performance.

The core gaming market is actually in a little trouble with sales of past gen games drying up and next gen install base too small. Last thing you want to do is slow down adoption even more by increasing the cost of the consoles to $500 for ps4 and $600! for XO with kinect :oops:

More 3rd party publishers might implode, leaving only unbisoft/ea/activision/zenimax/warnerbros and not much else.
 
You can probably only get $100-$150 at most for a 360 hardware. Maybe unless Gamestop runs a special or something.

So that argument is kind of suspect imo. You can afford $300 but not $400/$500? Where you going to buy XB1 with Kinect? Because that's the same extra $100 you'd save by selling a 360. Remember you specifically say you wont sell the games (and you can sell them either way).

Whatever. I can't afford $300 either. Especially now that I have a baby girl to take care of. I'll be needing to sell other stuff to get the rest of the $300 to help pay for the XB1 too. No credit card here. My original plan (before price was officially announced) was to buy once the Xbox One & Kinect bundle dropped down to $400. Provided it was backward compatible & I could get $150 for my Xbox 360 with Kinect. Once the XB1 price was announced at $500 & lacked backward compatibility I had to re-evaluate that plan & will probably buy once the XB1(without Kinect) reaches $300 since I won't be able to sell my 360 now. I figure that will probably be late next year, but I could wait until 2016 if I hear about another Red Dead coming. No must have XB1 titles for me this year and the only must have titles next year are Batman: Arkham Knight(early next year probably) & Halo 5(late next year). In the meantime I have plenty of 360 titles that I can play now, especially with Games with Gold continuing with 2 new games a month. Fortunately for me I can also purchase the free XB1 Games with Gold titles right now, even before I buy my next console. That might be the closest we get to backward compatibility LOL.

Tommy McClain
 
When a Xbox 360 or PS3 doesn't cost much more than $100 secondhand...DUMB in every way. I just dont get any BC arguments as rational at all when the solution is so simple, just buy/keep the original console!

If this is too much trouble, then you dont care very much about those old games anyway!

The summation of my argument has always been, if it's free, of course BC would be nice. But at almost any cost, let alone the relatively high one it actually is, it isn't worth it.

I don't think you're most users. In fact, the majority here are not either. I think I'm closer to your average gamer than most here & I think my 5 year old 360 has lasted probably longer than most. My DVD drive has about had it. It takes forever for the drive to open & when it finally does it has a hard time reading some disks. So when it finally gives up the ghost, do I spend a $150 on replacing it with a new 360 or do I put that $150 towards an XB1? Much easier decision had the XB1 shipped with backward compatibility. Not so easy without it. So I have to make a decision: 1) Go with the XB1 & I give up on all those digital games I purchased & all the future free Games with Gold titles on the 360(remember it's dead now) & get a system with a smattering of new titles that really don't catch my fancy for the next year. Or 2) Stay with the 360 & I can continue playing all my existing purchases(which exceeds the total current XB1 library to-date) & still get all the free upcoming Games with Gold titles while I wait for those 1 or 2 gotta-have-a-XB1 titles ship in 2015 or 2016. Think of it that way & the extra $100 can be a big barrier & not at all dumb. If you still think so, then send me that extra $100 you don't seem to need. I'll definitely put it to use. Send me a PM for my mailing address.

Tommy McClain
 
I don't think you're most users. In fact, the majority here are not either. I think I'm closer to your average gamer than most here & I think my 5 year old 360 has lasted probably longer than most. My DVD drive has about had it. It takes forever for the drive to open & when it finally does it has a hard time reading some disks. So when it finally gives up the ghost, do I spend a $150 on replacing it with a new 360 or do I put that $150 towards an XB1? Much easier decision had the XB1 shipped with backward compatibility. Not so easy without it. So I have to make a decision: 1) Go with the XB1 & I give up on all those digital games I purchased & all the future free Games with Gold titles on the 360(remember it's dead now) & get a system with a smattering of new titles that really don't catch my fancy for the next year. Or 2) Stay with the 360 & I can continue playing all my existing purchases(which exceeds the total current XB1 library to-date) & still get all the free upcoming Games with Gold titles while I wait for those 1 or 2 gotta-have-a-XB1 titles ship in 2015 or 2016. Think of it that way & the extra $100 can be a big barrier & not at all dumb. If you still think so, then send me that extra $100 you don't seem to need. I'll definitely put it to use. Send me a PM for my mailing address.

Tommy McClain

I hear ya, but consider that not only would there be a increase console cost but there would be an install base cost and publisher cost.

Look at what high price tags did to ps3, and look at what the lower pricetag is doing for the ps4. So there would be a slower adoption rate, and because of slower adoption rate a slower transition off cross gen games. Right now it looks like nextgen only 3rd party games are being pushed to 1st qtr of 2015. With a slower adoption rate, and a smaller next gen install base the developers would hold off even longer on developing games that are designed exclusively for next gen systems.

The core gaming market is actually in a little trouble with sales of past gen games drying up and next gen install base fairly small. Last thing you want to do is slow down adoption even more by increasing the cost of the consoles to $500 for ps4 and $600 for XO with kinect.

More 3rd party publishers might implode, leaving only ubisoft/ea/activision/zenimax/warnerbros and not much else.
 
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I think I remember some actual research had been done on this, and about 1 in 10 was concerned about backward compatibility. I happened to look at the reviews of the PS4 on amazon.fr and the first few complaints I found (very few) were about backward compatibility missing and noise.
 
When a Xbox 360 or PS3 doesn't cost much more than $100 secondhand...DUMB in every way. I just dont get any BC arguments as rational at all when the solution is so simple, just buy/keep the original console!

If this is too much trouble, then you dont care very much about those old games anyway!

The summation of my argument has always been, if it's free, of course BC would be nice. But at almost any cost, let alone the relatively high one it actually is, it isn't worth it.

People want convenience. There is a reason why consoles are striving to offer a seamless all in one experience. They want to be the center of the living room.
I currently have my PS3 connected because I have no other solution to play my old games.
But I d be delighted to be able to empty some space. I have a Home Theater, a 360, a PS3 and a PS4 in my entertainment room. But its an annoyance having all these there.

Similarly people keep their PS3's not just to play older games, but because the PS4's media capabilities are atrocious and lack behind the PS3. Its quite obvious to anyone that the PS4 should have been at least as good as the PS3. Having a PS3 and a PS4 to do that is not a good solution. I dont want to use my PS3 to do one thing and my PS4 to do another. Media capabilities are supposed to be a standard feature
 
Yes we have & you keep making a case against backward compatibility every time. If it bothers you so much that we keep bringing it up, maybe this thread isn't for you. ;)
It just goes to show no-one pays attention to what's written. I haven't made a case against BC. I've been in favour. I've made a case against it being essential. This thread only got reawakened by Joker linking to a poll in which 90% of respondents didn't want BC and using that as proof that BC was importance. I argued against that point, without arguing that BC itself was worthless. I've even repeatedly said I expect BC going forwards.

I guess anything other than black/white opinions are incomprehensible. Either one's for BC or against. The position of seeing the worth of BC but considering it part of the package and evaluating its impact on the final product and overall cost next to a considered evaluation of how the market actually values BC and what long-term benefits it may bring based on a non-biased assessment of available informations puts me squarely in the 'doesn't want BC' camp.
 
I'm also unconvinced by your argument that diminishing returns means older games a retaining their value. GTAV on PS4 is WAY better than on PS3, and worth an upgrade to many. But most importantly if gamers are happy to play old games going forwards because they don't look too bad, it means less reason to buy new games, which is turn would mean the end of the gaming industry as is. Unlike old movies which one can put on for 2 hours, or an old CD you can listen to in the background of doing something else, playing an old game can mean dedicating ten+, even tens of hours, which is leaving less time for new games. I think the limits of the time resource means what gaming time people have will be spent mostly on the latest, greatest thing. Why fire up Ryse on your XB4k when Epic's Roam is better and a new experience and what everyone else is playing? Or play GT6 when GT8 is better in every way*?

Wrong. GTAV will not be WAY better. Everything we've been shown so far suggests it will be pretty much the SAME experience - with better graphics. Graphics, contrary what many here hope to believe does not dictate the experience. It does when it offers better immersion, but I'm pretty sure people were just as immersed back in the day when they first played Kojima's masterpeace MGS even though the graphics were practically a pixellated mess (compared to todays games). Or the first Tomb Raider for that matter. What we lacked in those days in graphics and were representated as primitive blocks, our brain made up for it by adding the rest of the immersion. It's a similar process we experience when we read books.. Our mind captures what's written, and everything that is not, is made up by our imagination along the way. Now I'm not going to argue that we should remain in the stone age or in 2d space, because the advancements in technology have clearly made for better games. A prime example is the step GTA went through when going from birds-eye view to fully 3d - and each and every new game offered more exciting gameplay possibilities, larger cities, more interaction and eventually, multiplayer gaming over the internet. This all costs performance and what as essentially made gaming better. Graphics as a singular entity has not - or at least not to the degree that would constitute calling GTAV for PS4 way better. It will be the same game, with substantially better visuals - but still the same game. Using the same argument; playing any game on PC and scaling down the graphics to meet a more minimal hardware setup, doesn't make the game worse. It just makes it less pretty. Same applies to Tomb Raider: Definite Edition by the way. I own both, have played both. Given the choice, sure, I'll take the best version outthere, but it's still just the same game with better graphics. Which is why I never completed it on PS4 so far.

Now that's all pretty besides the point; back to your argument that if gamers are happy to play old games, they will lose interest in new games... well, if the new games offer little to no progress or excitement, then yes, perhaps they will sell less. In the end, they will always be messured against what we know, what we've experienced. If a hypothetical GT8 is worse than GT6, don't blame the people for not buying the new, blame the developers. The same pretty much applies to any other form of entertainment outthere. More importantly, I don't really see this happening. We play games for the experience - similarly to why we read books, and mostly the same old crime thrillers with slightly different characters, motives etc. As long as new games continue to offer us something good, I'm not sure people will continue to buy. It's not different then buying a game today, playing it, then buying a new game within a few months that offers a different experience. We buy multiple games per generation because they offer many different experiences and because we'd get bored if we only played the same old game over and over. It's no different with movies, books and games.

Anyway, the argument about diminishing returns was more that B/C is more important now than it was 10 years ago. Nothing more to it. The same argument applies to the future; I think it will be even more important in 10 years for the same reasons.

I know B/C comes at an immense cost for console designers. As a computer programmer myself, I can relate to that. I'm speaking more from a market POV where it will be ever important for a console vendor to find ways to bind their existing costumers who made large investments to their eco-system. The sad thing is; you're probably right to the degree that even if PS4 had backwards compatibility, that we (me included) probably wouldn't spend that much time playing old games. And even if your arguments are simply logical and accurate (that we don't really require B/C because on a practical level, the costs far outhweigh how often people would use it), I still think the psychology in consumers will make them want it. Because once you've invested a lot into a given platform, you don't really want to throw it out when you migrate to newer hardware. And every now and then, there will be a game that will remain a classic - which IMO there are many PSN games that meet this criteria. Games bought online and linked to a PSN account I still use on newer hardware, but can't be used anymore.
 
Now that's all pretty besides the point; back to your argument that if gamers are happy to play old games, they will lose interest in new games... well, if the new games offer little to no progress or excitement, then yes, perhaps they will sell less...More importantly, I don't really see this happening...As long as new games continue to offer us something good, I'm not sure people will continue to buy...we'd get bored if we only played the same old game over and over. It's no different with movies, books and games.
Right! People won't be playing old games because they'll be buying new and improved! If people are wanting new experiences and devs are producing better games than the old ones, why will people want to play the old, outdated versions instead of the latest, greatest versions? As long as people are buying and playing the new games, the market remains healthy, and there seems little point in BC because people don't want to play the old games! :p

And even if your arguments are simply logical and accurate (that we don't really require B/C because on a practical level, the costs far outhweigh how often people would use it), I still think the psychology in consumers will make them want it.
I agree, but you'd have to quantify that when making a business decision to support BC. Stick a dollar value on it and factor that into design choices.

This thread started before the new console were known quantities, and discussed whether they should pay the costs and include PS360 BC or not. The conclusion is basically 'no' because it would have cost too much, with the possibility of an optional extra unit to move costs only onto that small percentage that cared enough to invest. Going forwards, PS5/XB999, we have a different cost/benefit ratio that leads to a different decision. Of course, in Sony's case they are looking at Gaikai. If they get that working well enough, HW BC could be irrelevant up to a point (eventually the PS3 HW servers will disappear). MS are more after an ecosystem of devices, so for them BC seems inevitable as well as essential, although they still haven't properly got themselves together to provide a single unified platform; they presently only have a single, unified development environment to create multiple products from a single source.

Nintendo OTOH have provided BC and suffered as a result IMO. Given the lack of Wii U's, perhaps they'd be best served with a clean-slate design, maybe a powerhouse driving VR or something? BC should be considered on a case-by-case basis - there's no simple 'it should always be included' or 'it should always be excluded' conclusion.
 
People want convenience. There is a reason why consoles are striving to offer a seamless all in one experience. They want to be the center of the living room.
I think only one console was being sold as the thing that should be the centre of your living room/TV experience. Nintendo and Sony are just pushing their consoles as gaming devices.
 
I think only one console was being sold as the thing that should be the centre of your living room/TV experience. Nintendo and Sony are just pushing their consoles as gaming devices.
The origins and name of PlayStation are the computer you use for entertainment. That's why PS1 included CD playback. That's why PS2 included DVD playback. That's why PS3's marketing campaign solidified around 'it only does everything'. Sony very much want(ed) a content platform for all one's entertainment needs (hence the existing of PlayStation Store selling movies and music). Only Nintendo stood by the 'games only' mantra, although even they buckled with the inclusion of non-gaming functions like web browsing and web players.
 
The origins and name of PlayStation are the computer you use for entertainment. That's why PS1 included CD playback. That's why PS2 included DVD playback. That's why PS3's marketing campaign solidified around 'it only does everything'. Sony very much want(ed) a content platform for all one's entertainment needs (hence the existing of PlayStation Store selling movies and music). Only Nintendo stood by the 'games only' mantra, although even they buckled with the inclusion of non-gaming functions like web browsing and web players.

If it "only does everything" then one has to ask why the ps4 is such a terrible media device if that was part of their focus.
 
Sony's focus shifted towards principally gaming, to court the key audience. it worked. ;)

Sure, but what DSoup was saying is that only one console maker was really focused on being the center of your living room experience and it wasn't Nintendo or Sony. Also, whether or not it worked remains to be seen as some companies are making long term plays by dabbling in both gaming and media.
 
The origins and name of PlayStation are the computer you use for entertainment. That's why PS1 included CD playback. That's why PS2 included DVD playback. That's why PS3's marketing campaign solidified around 'it only does everything'. Sony very much want(ed) a content platform for all one's entertainment needs (hence the existing of PlayStation Store selling movies and music).
You're talking history, I'm talking about PlayStation 4. I've not seen a single piece of marketing that even mentions Music Unlimited or Movies Unlimited. And if you want to see if the thing supports Netflix? Yeah, you often have to read the small print.

The PlayStation 4 is not a product being pushed by Sony as the centre of your living room.
 
You're talking history, I'm talking about PlayStation 4. I've not seen a single piece of marketing that even mentions Music Unlimited or Movies Unlimited. And if you want to see if the thing supports Netflix? Yeah, you often have to read the small print.

The PlayStation 4 is not a product being pushed by Sony as the centre of your living room.
Okay, I'll agree with that. I think the previous messages somewhat carry it as a core-living-room experience - you buy a PS4 expecting it to be able to play films and Netflix for example - but it wasn't a key sales point, perhaps because Sony realised the living room idea hasn't played at as many believed simply because computing became way more personal than even personal computers. Each member of a family does their own thing on their own device, making a central point redundant.
 
Okay, I'll agree with that. I think the previous messages somewhat carry it as a core-living-room experience - you buy a PS4 expecting it to be able to play films and Netflix for example - but it wasn't a key sales point, perhaps because Sony realised the living room idea hasn't played at as many believed simply because computing became way more personal than even personal computers.

I think that what Sony took from PlayStation 3 was that people will use it for things like iPlayer and Netflix so PlayStation 4 should do that at least. I think that perhaps what Microsoft took from 360 (and the fact that Sony kept saying that PS3 was the number 1 Netflix platform) was that people wanted to watch TV on their console.

Maybe. It'd explain a lot.
 
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