*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

Dolphin demands the absolute fastest CPU for even some Cube games. Although it is likely that skillful emulator professionals with access to all hardware docs could do it much better. Still, both PS3 and 360 have shown that pure software emulation is not trivial.

Dolphin is still a WIP, my money would be on the code that (the game you are talking about uses) not having enough work done on it yet.

Also Dolphin is going PPC to x86-64 which (if Mac OSX rosetta is anything to go) is a huge performance sap.

If Cafe is based on a PowerPC CPU would it not run Wii and Gamecube code much faster than x86 (clock for clock).
 
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If you look at backwards compatibility as being there to support an online service rather than individual, already purchased titles (as in previous generations) then it's a very different proposition.

In the case of Live, BC would not only allow you to "keep" the games and DLC you've already bought, it would also allow you to continue playing with the people on your friends list who are still on the previous generation. Which early on would be most of them. It's not just that MS don't want you to suspend your Live Gold membership while you wait for them to upgrade, they should also know that any break with the service (and your existing content) makes it easier to jump ship to another platform.

We're talking about continuity of service and content across generations. These services not only make money in their own right, they bind people to the platform (and potentially its successor) through the content they've paid for, and they bind people to the platform (and potentially its successor) through playing games with the people on their friends list.

Keeping customers across hardware transitions is tricky, and I think continuity of a service you value and getting to keep content you've paid for could be a strong draw and it's absence a potential disincentive.
 
Halo is a serious fringe case, being a popular online title still active when XB360 was release. Had Halo 3 been out on 360's release, H2 wouldn't have had a look in. Had an alternative next-gen online game with the same pulling power been released, Halo 2 players would have moved on (as they have I suppose with COD and other Halo titles). Had H2 not worked on 360, those 360 buyers would have just waited a while.

The dominance of Halo 2 has been replaced by a group of hugely popular FPS game, and getting one game ready for launch (let alone several) that can instantly take over from your old games is a big bet. Much better to just instantly have access to all the really, really popular games on day one, while also shooting for something new.

Even if you could launch something good enough soon enough, it doesn't get around the issue that people like playing games with their friends and early on a lot of your friends will still be on the last gen. To sidestep this issue is to miss a large part of what it is so potent about Xbox Live.

Regarding Halo 2 players just waiting, well I'm sure some of them would have, but that's the last thing that a vendor like MS (with a hugely hyped competitor about to drop) would want. The sooner you can get customers on the next machine the sooner it can build up to a critical mass and the greater the draw for other customers to upgrade like their friends have.

PC is different as it's an evolutionary platform built on a hardware abstraction layer.

But once you start to look at a service like Live as an evolutionary platform, the the importance of not enforcing a clean break between generations, and the value of, erm, continuity (I'm overusing the word but I can't think of a better one) becomes more apparent.

You want customers to trust the service and to be comfortable throwing money at it!

BC is nice, don't get me wrong, and it helps with the transition. But if you are tying your new hardware design to legacy hardware, you are tying a ball-and-chain around your engineers. The net fiscal gain is, IMO, way, way less than the potential costs in choosing a less-than-ideal hardware to accommodate BC. PS3, for example, needed costly BC hardware. And that was a good call - if Sony had stuck a next-gen GS in there instead of RSX, PS3 would have been a dire architecture! MS didn't design any hardware BC as far as we know (costly licensing issues), but thanks to XB running on a hardware abstraction layer in the main, MS were able to port titles and offer a degree of BC. Had they stuck with full BC, they'd have had to buy an x86 processor at no doubt considerably higher cost than Xenon, and gone with an nVidia without unified shaders or licensed the necessaries. If Nintendo want to keep GC and Wii BC, they'll be utterly gimping their graphics, or including redundant hardware that, once the NES6 game library has fleshed out, will not be used. That's wasted money.

There's certainly costs of BC to be considered, and you wouldn't want to cripple your new platform (and yeah I think Sony did the right thing with the PS3 too). Previously I would have shunned BC so every penny could be thrown into faster, meatier, leaner hardware (as with UMD PSP1 -> PSP2) but in the network services age I think there's more to the BC equation that there was before.

My hope is that the next systems will be so fast they can take BC in their stride, or that the hardware chosen (for example IBM cpus) would be chosen anyway. Spec the best system you can, then worry about BC.
 
The next gen Nintendo system as long as it is not behind the curve will be powerful enough to emulate Wii and Gamecube games without any old hardware.

The PC Dolphin emulator shows just how easy it is to emulate them.
Emulation doesn't require hardware to be BC. If you can get BC by using an emulator, and aren't harassing your engineers to include hardware features for BC in your new console design, that's a 'free option' to be considered on whether you think it's worth the money or not. Both MS and Sony ditched the idea of software emulation after a fashion for 6th gen machines.

There is a difference between the Backwards Compatibility we were getting back in the PS2 era and the Backwards Compatibility of DD games we would like to see carried over to the next console.
I just feel that with digital distribution becoming bigger and bigger, I want them all to be transferable and playable on the new console...
#1 reason why MS will have some sort of BC plan: XBLA.
But once you start to look at a service like Live as an evolutionary platform, the the importance of not enforcing a clean break between generations, and the value of, erm, continuity (I'm overusing the word but I can't think of a better one) becomes more apparent.
Because download titles don't tend to be so extreme on the hardware use, they can be addressed by virtualising the hardware, so hardware compatibility is not necessary and engineers are decoupled from the issue of supporting software, just like the PC. XNA titles on Live should port over nicely, just as they do between 360 and PC. Sony have some middleware but their big focus seems to be PlayStation Suite that'll provide portability between devices and generations. and anything developed on UE3, like Fat Princess and Shadow Complex, should be recompilable to the new platforms. So I expect the current and near future state of download title BC to be pretty good, and the future state to be a non-issue as all download titles will be cross-device and fully portable thanks to middleware/hardware abstraction. But as long as consoles get low-level hardware-hitting games coded by code ninjas, the 'disc based' AAA games from one generation to the next should get left behind so as not to hamper the hardware.
 
Emulation doesn't require hardware to be BC. If you can get BC by using an emulator, and aren't harassing your engineers to include hardware features for BC in your new console design, that's a 'free option' to be considered on whether you think it's worth the money or not.

I know that, I just misspoke.

Part hardware, part software BC would be the way to go IMO.
Closer to virtualization than normal emulators.
Could you not virtualize the gamecode on one CPU of a tri core chip, if the CPU supports the same calls as the Wii's CPU and use another CPU to JIT the GFX code and the like?
 
I could not care less about backwards compability. Makes no difference to me, by the time new games arrive the old ones look just that old and outdated. And i haven't played a game this generation that is so memorable i could not live without it after i sell my current gen console.

I would easily trade away backwards compability for stronger cpu or gpu
 
Having BC on XBLA titles would be very important to me, for a lot of the reasons mentioned above. Not sure if I'd be so bothered if disc based games weren't all BC though.
It's a tough one for a company releasing a new console, balancing how annoyed people will be if they lose their old games v 'needing' them to buy the release games on the new console. It could work quite well in their favour as launch line-ups are famously sparse. Allowing someone to free up space under their tv by just needing the new console would definitely be a winner.
 
You still probably wouldn't play 90% of your old games ever again anyway
I'm not sure about my own percentage, but lack of full backwards compatibility is the main reason why I don't buy consoles. Chances are I'd have to keep this console around forever if I want to play its games in 15 years. And keep around the console I buy after that. And keep around the console I buy after that. And hope none of the hardware dies.

Most of my favorite games are older games, I'll name a few: Police Quest series (1987-1993), Day of the Tentacle (1993), Blade Runner (1997), Half-Life (1998), Mafia (2002), GTA San Andreas (2004), Call of Cthulhu (2005)
I play these games now, and I know I'll be able to play them on a 128-core machine with Windows 10 and 160 GB of RAM.

As a non-console owner I can tell you: the only way to make me buy a console is if you guarantee me that all subsequent consoles will be 100% compatible to the games I buy now.
 
Makes no difference to me, by the time new games arrive the old ones look just that old and outdated. And i haven't played a game this generation that is so memorable i could not live without it after i sell my current gen console.
I wonder how old you are? Because this mentality is completely different from mine, and at 27 I'm not that old.

I'd hate it if my MP3 player was not compatible to songs recorded before 2000.
I'd hate it if I couldn't watch The Shining from 1980 on my Blu-ray player just because I didn't keep a VHS around.
And yes, I'd hate it if I could never play Mass Effect again just because Xbox 720 isn't compatible, and with Mass Effect 5 out, who cares about Mass Effect 1, right?
 
I was thinking... for the PS4 couldn't Sony simply create a separate BC SKU with an on-board CELL and sell it at a premium for those die-hard folks who absolutely need BC in their console?

Either that or focus soley on just keeping your DD PS3 content alive on server so you can continue to re-d/l those games on your PS3 even when Sony moves over to PSN2 and PS4 (or what ever it will be called).

I don't think that xbox360 folks should be worried about their XBLA content as XBL-360 was a drastic overhaul of their network infrastructure than XBL1 was, and i don't see them wanting (or needing) to make such significant changes next gen (i mean what more features do they need that would require a massive overhaul).

I don't really see XBL 360 ever really being killed like XB1 was. Especially given MS' finacial predicament with XB1 that made them kill off the console completely in the first place. They'll continue to support both XB360 and XB-Next for a long time and i see them both being connected to the same service. So i don't think peeps would need to worry about losing content as i don't see MS as so short sighted in their network developement that they'd effectively have to "re-do" everything for the next console.

...Sony on the otherhand may want to transform PSN significantly and may very well end up in a position where they have to make the call to either support PSN1 & 2 as two very separate concurrent networks, or effectively bin PSN1 and Launch PSN2 with a brand new fresh and incompatible with PS3 infrastructure.

/speculation

Just musing...
 
XNA titles on Live should port over nicely, just as they do between 360 and PC.

You underestimate the amount titles that use the XNA tools. There is only a handful of XBLA that use it. Don't have an exact number but I believe it's around 6(I'll try to get an exact number). Now, every one of the 1800 XBLIG title uses XNA, but I think we both know that none of those sell very well & there would be no public outcry if they were not compatible with the next system.

Tommy McClain
 
I guess I would count on another PowerPC CPU for backwards compatibility, but I bet the XBLA games are all using a 3D API and so it should be fairly straightforward to keep compatibility with a new, more advanced GPU.

But the full-on 360/PS3 games are surely another story because they tend to be much more tailored to the architecture to get more pretties.
 
I wonder how old you are? Because this mentality is completely different from mine, and at 27 I'm not that old.

I'd hate it if my MP3 player was not compatible to songs recorded before 2000.
I'd hate it if I couldn't watch The Shining from 1980 on my Blu-ray player just because I didn't keep a VHS around.
And yes, I'd hate it if I could never play Mass Effect again just because Xbox 720 isn't compatible, and with Mass Effect 5 out, who cares about Mass Effect 1, right?
I think you're very much in the minority. You have something of a collectors mind, I guess, and you'd be served by keeping your consoles. I certainly don't think persons like yourself are plentiful enough and important enough to be a defining force behind a console, and so you are served by PC games. Which, incidentally, haven't always been BC. It's needed things like DOSBox to recover some old experiences (just playing MOO on DOSbox myself, and am impressed with the upscaling). I know a couple of years ago I was trying to get Dune II running and failed, so it's not like PC BC is uniform and seamless, and it's down to serious retro gamers to solve those issues themselves.

Basically, if you could put a dollar value on it, you might find the cost of including it represents $50 per unit sold (BC hardware, or lost power hence sales versus competition due to legacy support) whereas the gain might be $1 per unit average thanks to people willing to upgrade their platform instead of switch, or buy early and help install a substantial laucnh userbase. Out of my arse figures, it may be any of a massive range of figures. Personally I'm not seeing arguments that suggest the monetary value of including BC is going to outweigh the costs though, consdering costs are going to be significant.
 
The cost of not supporting a seamless(ish) transition for Live users could be anywhere from nothing to tens of billions of dollars, depending on myriad factors.

The cost of supporting BC could be anywhere between almost nothing per unit and tens of dollars, with potentially huge knock on losses or benefits.

Once you view the console as being there to serve the software and services (rather than vice versa) then I think it becomes easier to imagine the full range of benefits to supporting BC, it's just a question of whether the negatives outweigh them.

Sorry if this is all stating the obvious.
 
The cost of not supporting a seamless(ish) transition for Live users could be anywhere from nothing to tens of billions of dollars, depending on myriad factors.

The cost of supporting BC could be anywhere between almost nothing per unit and tens of dollars, with potentially huge knock on losses or benefits.
Supporting low-level BC in hardware is never going to be cheap. Take PS3 for example - emulating Cell on anything will be an absolute bugger, so hardware BC is going to either need a Cell in there, or a very customised part. Even emulating titles with a general emulator and per-title parameters isn't worth the returns, as evidenced by MS abandoning that and Sony never even trying it. The returns for BC could be anywhere, but the costs will certainly be substantial.

It's also debatable if the majority see download titles as services or products. If they buy a game, finish it, and never return to it, then it's hardly a service providing you access to content you bought many moons ago and want to revisit after the fact. Putting it another way, what is the lifetime of a bought medium like a disc or tape? Should someone buying a movie or game in whatever format expect the creators/platform to support it for 1 year, 5, 50? What is the same lifetime of the same product bought as a download, and if different, why?

We have personal testimony of the different perceptions, but a few opinions on a forum are nothing for a company to base their decisions on. What larger datasets do we have for consideration? I think things like Achievements/Trophies show how many people complete a game to its natural first-play conclusion, and I believe looking at my friend's list that this data shows very clearly most games are never completed. So if never even played through once, and dropped instead for the next latest game release, what reason is there to think these games will be picked up 3 or 4 years later and the owner will be peeved when it doesn't run on their new console, or worse won't buy a console because they won't be able to play that game they lost interest in four weeks after buying?
 
Personally I'm not seeing arguments that suggest the monetary value of including BC is going to outweigh the costs though, consdering costs are going to be significant.
That's probably right. I was only speaking from a personal point of view. Am just a bit surprised that most people are so willing to completely drop all older games in favor of the "next gen" stuff.
 
Should someone buying a movie or game in whatever format expect the creators/platform to support it for 1 year, 5, 50?
In the film industry, we are already experiencing one generation of backwards compatibility because Blu-ray fully supports DVD playback.
Let's go forward in time 10 years. 4K resolution is starting to become the norm. A new physical film format comes out. And let's assume it's NOT backwards compatible.

In due time all older movies will be released on the new format, despite brand new movies coming out all the time. This is not the case for games.
 
Supporting low-level BC in hardware is never going to be cheap. Take PS3 for example - emulating Cell on anything will be an absolute bugger, so hardware BC is going to either need a Cell in there, or a very customised part. Even emulating titles with a general emulator and per-title parameters isn't worth the returns, as evidenced by MS abandoning that and Sony never even trying it. The returns for BC could be anywhere, but the costs will certainly be substantial.

I don't think MS ever intended to support the whole Xbox catalog, and the costs of developing the emulator would have been small compared to the cost of developing custom BC hardware and then including it in every Xbox. The benefit of developing the emulator could have been tens or hundreds of millions or (at a stretch) billions of dollars in the long run.

I think you're right about Cell - Sony have a big issue and I don't know what they'll do. With MS the issue of BC is bigger though, because Live brings in over half a billion dollars of revenue every year in Gold subscriptions alone. Anything you can do to stop people defecting to your competitors free service is worth a significant sum of money. With friends lists being what they are, any person that defects makes it easier for others to defect. And the early adopters will set the trend for everyone else.

It's also debatable if the majority see download titles as services or products. If they buy a game, finish it, and never return to it, then it's hardly a service providing you access to content you bought many moons ago and want to revisit after the fact. Putting it another way, what is the lifetime of a bought medium like a disc or tape? Should someone buying a movie or game in whatever format expect the creators/platform to support it for 1 year, 5, 50? What is the same lifetime of the same product bought as a download, and if different, why?

To use the tape analogy, I don't know anyone that threw out their entire VHS collection the day they bought a DVD player, or anyone that threw out all their DVDs when they went HD-DVD (oops) or BluRay. And while I can't prove it, I don't think any of the people I know would have upgraded if they'd had to do this. And yes, I know the situation with games isn't directly comparable, but overlap is important.

Half of the games I have on Steam I've never actually played. I'm sure there are people that have "jumped in" on Xbox Live marketplace specials and not yet played the games or not yet played them to their satisfaction or who simply don't like the idea of them or anyone else never playing the game they've bought and kept again.

And again, the point that doesn't seem to get mentioned is that owners of the new system may still want to play a game in co-op or in a Live party with their last gen friends. In the critical early adopter first 18 month phase this is more likely than at any other time, and given that the 360 isn't going to be aborted like the Xbox 1 (it's still selling and still making lots of money) a period of transition is more likely than ever.

Live is hugely important to MS, and I don't think folks really get this yet.

We have personal testimony of the different perceptions, but a few opinions on a forum are nothing for a company to base their decisions on. What larger datasets do we have for consideration? I think things like Achievements/Trophies show how many people complete a game to its natural first-play conclusion, and I believe looking at my friend's list that this data shows very clearly most games are never completed. So if never even played through once, and dropped instead for the next latest game release, what reason is there to think these games will be picked up 3 or 4 years later and the owner will be peeved when it doesn't run on their new console, or worse won't buy a console because they won't be able to play that game they lost interest in four weeks after buying?

"Most games" don't matter. It's the games that are special to you or that your friends are playing that matter. And to some folks the principle of continued access and ownership matter even if they don't desperately need the product.

Given the choice between Steam like persistence or Xbox 1 like scattering to dust and ashes, which would I choose? No contest. And the more your have invested the more likely you are are to stay.

And again, Live and PSN are more than just digital stores! A good group of folks to play games with is priceless. Well, maybe not priceless, but worth £40 a year to millions of gamers and over half a billion dollars a year to MS.
 
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I could not care less about backwards compability. Makes no difference to me, by the time new games arrive the old ones look just that old and outdated. And i haven't played a game this generation that is so memorable i could not live without it after i sell my current gen console.

I would easily trade away backwards compability for stronger cpu or gpu

I can name a fair few games that are old but still look good to this day, e.g Conker Live and Reloaded, DOA:U, Soul Calibur 3 (high res does wonders for this game), Shadow of the Colossus ect.

People seem to still want to play old games even on new consoles, like GoW 1 and 2.
Both games look the same as on the PS2 just with a higher res on the PS3, nothing was done to make it look even close to a PS3 game.
 
Purchased, digital content can't be resold with the old system as you always could with physical media. This is a strong argument in favor of BC for me, at least.
 
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