Sony's Cross-Generation Game Messaging [2021]

Are you claiming xbox has better launch window titles this console generation than ps5?

We finally have rolling generations which I have been big proponent for. Very similar to how phone upgrades work.[/QUOTE]

They both have rather underwhelming launch window lineups. Difference could be higher budget but less of it vs lower budget but more of it. It doesnt really matter.

At that point your argument doesn't favor xbox/pc anymore as both will have slower hw in gamers hand than what ps5 is.

Sony talked officially about a 3 to 4 year cross gen period (cant remember where and when), so ye, things will be phased out on PS4 (lol, hope so).
I dont see why that would implicate next generational graphics for xbox (or pc), because well, scaling apperantly exists and does wonderfull things these days. Implying MS studios lack the competence of scaling isnt really high level headed eitherway.

Xbox series s is a mistake imho.

It has basically all what matters most according to playstation users, the SSD. Rendering tech and amounts of ram and bandwith take a backseat since the entrance of the SSD.

Sony has better way of moving user base to higher base spec than xbox has.

Since PS4 users have a 3 to 4 year time from the launch of the PS5, nah, their quite good at keeping the PS4 alive and well for over half a PS5 generation to come.
The difference here is that MS is going for the real rolling generations strategy whilest sony is stuck on having one hardware spec box every seven years, but their learning and adopting slowly it seems.
Sony games appearing on PC also is a move MS has done a loooong time ago.
 
My thinking is sony's continued ps4 support ensures those folks will update to ps5 instead of something else. If GT7/GoW/Horizon/... is sufficiently better in ps5 I wouldn't find it unlikely these games would cause ps4 owners to upgrade to ps5.

If sony had skipped BC and possibly ps4 support it would be much more likely ps4 owners would try out competing products.

I think sony has confirmed it long time ago ps4 will stay with as for a while yet. Against this backdrop it was always odd sony wasn't claiming to do cross gen titles.
So far my main complaint with Sony's cross generation policies are the bespoke releases for each console, as opposed to what Microsoft has as a policy, which is one release that runs the appropriate version for your system. I think paid upgrades are a greedy cash grab. And for the record I don't have a problem with $70 games. If it's $70, then that's what it costs. But don't try to convince me that I should pay more because you didn't have to do the optimization work for PS4.

Yup. You have to wonder if this was always the plan or if this is a response to the Sony's inability to produce enough PS5s. If the latter, fair enough but just say that. If the former, Sony's comms were deceitful. Lots of people, myself included, criticised Sony's comms regarding PS5 last year but that was mostly their lack of information.
I know PS5's are hard to get, but hasn't it outsold the PS4 in the same time period? I don't think you can use a supply constraint as an excuse if you have a larger install base than you did last generation, or the generation before that. Sony wants to do this, and I'm sure there are reasons, but it isn't because there aren't enough PS5s out there.
 
I know PS5's are hard to get, but hasn't it outsold the PS4 in the same time period? I don't think you can use a supply constraint as an excuse if you have a larger install base than you did last generation, or the generation before that. Sony wants to do this, and I'm sure there are reasons, but it isn't because there aren't enough PS5s out there.

PS5 install base is miniscule compared to ps4 install base. The combined large install base allows making triple a expensive titles in launch window as part of the cost is absorbed by ps4 players. Big games would come out later if they were ps5 only(same as previous generations). Another POV is that happy ps4 owner is more likely to keep buying playstation. One way to make ps4 owners happy is keep supporting ps4. Way to get them upgrade is show significantly better looking game on ps5 to get ps4 folks want more pretties.
 
Graphic aside, I'm not sure what we're missing by HFW and GoW:R being cross gen. Although guess we'll never know!

Definitely not missing out by a circuit racer like GT being cross gen.
 
PS5 install base is miniscule compared to ps4 install base. The combined large install base allows making triple a expensive titles in launch window as part of the cost is absorbed by ps4 players. Big games would come out later if they were ps5 only(same as previous generations). Another POV is that happy ps4 owner is more likely to keep buying playstation. One way to make ps4 owners happy is keep supporting ps4. Way to get them upgrade is show significantly better looking game on ps5 to get ps4 folks want more pretties.
All I'm saying is that at this point in the PS4's, and PS3's life, we got real generational exclusives. And there are more PS5s in the wild now then there were PS4s or PS3s back then. I understand there are reasons. But making excuses because of a hardware supply constraint or an install base do not track with what was economically feasible for every generation before now.

I'm not unhappy Sony is doing this. I have no PS5, but I do have a PS4. So it's great that I can play some games I thought I would have to buy a new system for. In fact, I'm grateful for the support. I'm simply saying that Sony's hand isn't being forced because they haven't or couldn't move enough PS5s. They have, as proven by past generations.
 
Guerrilla comments on the nature of cross generational game. Sounds like supporting ps4 wasn't a major limitation. Can we now put forbidden west is just a ps4 game argument into grave and move on?

Mathijs de Jonge:
I don't think the cross-generation development was limiting in any way. When we started with the concept of this game, we had so many great ideas that ended up being included - to the point that we didn't really think about hardware limitations or anything, we just wanted to design a really nice, unique experience for the player. An awesome adventure. That's how we also brainstormed all the quests and events the player is going to go through. I think that the big delta between these two consoles, apart from the 3D audio, quick loading and DualSense of course, is on the graphical side of things. On the PlayStation 5, we can add so much more detail graphically. We can see the tiny hairs on Aloy’s face, for example. You can also see a ton of detail from far away.

I don't think many people notice in the demo, but you could see moss growing on the rocks. On the PlayStation 5, each individual strand of moss is rendered individually. So this machine is so powerful, and it can add so much more detail to the image. I think that's one of the biggest deltas, next to the processing power of the machine. We also use it for a specific lighting rig. This is a cinematic lighting rig that we normally only have time to use in cinematics. Because the PlayStation 5 is so much more powerful, we have it on all the time. During gameplay, there's a very high-quality rendering and lighting system on a lot. So there are all these extra features that make the game look even better.
https://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/fea...ests-creators-promise-highly-ambitious-sequel
 
It is disappointing for sure, but looking at the current situation, I can understand why they shifted their cross gen messaging. What Sony did back then about PS5 cross gen messaging was in line with what they have done before. There was nothing strange about it. It was MS that did something different by not fully committed to next gen but instead their main focus was and is on gamepass. Of course anyone in their right mind back then would take a jab at MS for focusing on cross gen games.
But that was back then when Sony probably formulated their messaging not counting about the pandemic (which reduced chip output early on) and the current chip shortage. As a business, they can either honor their messaging by focusing on PS5 exclusive and basically doing it purely for pleasing some of their fans or trying to adapt to the situation by changing their messaging which, although I personally don't like it, is probably the better choice right now.

Selling an exclusive is not simply about satisfying or making money from the existing user base, but more importantly for growing that user base. Right now, the demand for PS5 is still more than supply, thus making an exclusive PS5 games is not only limiting the amount of people that can enjoy the game, it is also can't be used as a system seller which kinda defeats the purpose of having exclusives.

If MS gamepass exclusives are only to serve their current user base, I don't think MS would go all out acquiring studios. The reason that they go all out is that not only they did it to satisfy their current user, but they do it to make gamepass more compelling so they can grow their user base.
 
Guerrilla comments on the nature of cross generational game. Sounds like supporting ps4 wasn't a major limitation. Can we now put forbidden west is just a ps4 game argument into grave and move on?




https://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/fea...ests-creators-promise-highly-ambitious-sequel

Yeah, he confirms the game scales very well. Its the difference in settings mostly seeing what he talks about. Ofcourse they have to promote their new game aswell.

As a business, they can either honor their messaging by focusing on PS5 exclusive and basically doing it purely for pleasing some of their fans or trying to adapt to the situation by changing their messaging which, although I personally don't like it, is probably the better choice right now.

Trying to blame cross gen messaging shift to corona virus would be even a worse an idea to make now.
 
I'm not expecting big sony games to support ps4 after 2022. The swan song of ps4 will be catalogue titles and something towards casuals/children. Horizon3, spiderman2 etc. will be ps5 as baseline games. Maybe ps5 pro also out around 2023/2024? Making current engines scale ahead of time could signal good things for pro model,... Sony's sale forecast for ps5 is aggressive enough to support these big games without ps4 in a year or too.
 
Trying to blame cross gen messaging shift to corona virus would be even a worse an idea to make now.
It is not blaming it, but adapting to the situation. Also it isn't about corona but the chip shortage. As a business, you can just sit and blame everything around you or you adapt. Do you think in previous generations, Sony or other console makers making their game exclusive for next gen just simply doing it because it is next gen? no, of course not. Sacrificing a large user base build on their previous generation is not a really good move, but they keep doing it because it was necessary to drive adoption. Right now if they release a PS5 only games, that important purpose of an exclusive is gone, which doesn't make any business sense. Sure, this decision might anger some PS5 fans, but there are probably a lot of PS4 fans cheering about the decision.
Right now we are in a forum where mainly people like the tech, want to see something new, something exciting... a forum where there is probably a user thinking that you are not a serious gamers if you don't own at least an 5700xt equivalent, which I'm not. Probably more people are cheering about Sony decision this time, but for sure the amount of people disappointed with it is significant and like I've said in the beginning, I'm also disappointed. I can understand the rationale behind it but that doesn't mean I'm totally fine with it.
 
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there's nada you can or they will do. People aren't going to stop buying PS5 in protest. They have a shortages till next year, and at this point in time if you see a PS5 on the shelf you have to buy it because it'll be bought by someone else immediately.

Sony is going to wait for you guys to stop caring. But yea, it sucks, I mean. The best time to buy a console is truly at revision it seems, if you're looking to maximize your dollars. Next gen, they'll do the same thing. And the early adopters will eat it up and get burned again. That's just reality, there is too much novelty in getting something first, this type of thing won't stop people.
Shut up and tell me more of this mid gen console I must buy! :D

Now, theres not all that much reason to actually obtain a PS5, i mean, most of it will run on PS4 and PS4 Pro anyways, quite nicely aswell if studios arent in for a refunding process. Doubt they will go the 2077 route and design primary for 2020 hardware and squeeze that into low end 2013 hardware.
Yeah, no need to upgrade GPUs or CPUs on PC either I guess because everything scales?

I was pretty close to buying a PC GPU instead of both consoles banking on their titles coming to PC. But in the end I decided against it. Next generation I'm not sure what I'll do. It's certainly coming together.

It has basically all what matters most according to playstation users, the SSD. Rendering tech and amounts of ram and bandwith take a backseat since the entrance of the SSD.
Selective reading much?

Dang PSman - I try so hard not to bite but I'm super sensitive today, must be that ToG for me (Time of a Generation when reality hits that it won't be as good as expected) lol

Selling an exclusive is not simply about satisfying or making money from the existing user base, but more importantly for growing that user base. Right now, the demand for PS5 is still more than supply, thus making an exclusive PS5 games is not only limiting the amount of people that can enjoy the game, it is also can't be used as a system seller which kinda defeats the purpose of having exclusives.

If MS gamepass exclusives are only to serve their current user base, I don't think MS would go all out acquiring studios. The reason that they go all out is that not only they did it to satisfy their current user, but they do it to make gamepass more compelling so they can grow their user base.
Could be when people catch wind that their are no exclusives that the desire will die down...as stated elsewhere, we have no more than a handful of 'true' exclusives. And now we're being told a massive game that will be out NEXT YEAR will have PS4 support. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to kick last gen owners, but this is how consoles have always been.
 
Shut up and tell me more of this mid gen console I must buy! :D
lol don't feel bad. I bought a ps5 and only played Demon Souls and HZD. I'm doing much worse than most PS5 owners lol.

In the end it'll work itself out after 2-3 years for sure when last gen is entirely behind and they start steaming forward. I'm not sure if there is a Pro variant coming, but I could certainly see a slim variant.

These companies prey on hype and fanbase. I think the 3D Pulse headsets and second controllers were also sold out in the start with PS5. That just screams to them, 'hit me harder daddy'. And they most certainly have no issue fleecing their fans for as much as they can.
 
I have been trying to buy a ps5 since launch but it's always sold out. If I get a notification, it's sold out by time I get into web page. Against this back drop it's pretty nice the games also come for ps4. Not everyone can even get a ps5 this year.
 
lol don't feel bad. I bought a ps5 and only played Demon Souls and HZD. I'm doing much worse than most PS5 owners lol.

In the end it'll work itself out after 2-3 years for sure when last gen is entirely behind and they start steaming forward. I'm not sure if there is a Pro variant coming, but I could certainly see a slim variant.
I'm happy with the upgrade on the games - the controller is also lovely, the games that take advantage of the SSD are amazing - so I'm happy with the purchase...but, the fact most PS4 games can't maximise the SSD and the lack of decent suspend (XSX years ahead) and now lack of true exclusives are jarring.
 
All I'm saying is that at this point in the PS4's, and PS3's life, we got real generational exclusives. And there are more PS5s in the wild now then there were PS4s or PS3s back then. I understand there are reasons. But making excuses because of a hardware supply constraint or an install base do not track with what was economically feasible for every generation before now.

I'm not unhappy Sony is doing this. I have no PS5, but I do have a PS4. So it's great that I can play some games I thought I would have to buy a new system for. In fact, I'm grateful for the support. I'm simply saying that Sony's hand isn't being forced because they haven't or couldn't move enough PS5s. They have, as proven by past generations.

It's all about the business and removing the unprofitability around the launch window of a console. With typical hard generation shifts you see a massive drop in software (game) sales whenever a new generation arrives which leads to a massive drop in console revenue. Here we see both Sony and MS have either flat or increasing console revenue. The reason? Almost all software (game) sales are playable on both the new and old generation of consoles.

That's the whole concept behind rolling generations and what game developers have been asking for. The actual game developers that care about whether their company can remain profitable through a new console generation launch and whether their company will even still exist after the loss of revenue that accompanies a hard generation shift. The comments we see from developers that don't like it are ones that just work there and don't even think about the financial hardships that accompany new generation launches since they get paid the same salary regardless of how profitable the company is. Well, until the company becomes takes on too many losses and either has to close or gets sold to a large publisher. :p

For Sony it obviously isn't about whether their studios will have to be closed or not. It's all about not having that massive 2-3 year decline in console revenue that has always accompanied a new console generation.

They obviously knew this was the plan ahead of time as you don't just implement cross platform support after a game has been in development for multiple years. However, Sony have always been about telling gamers only what they feel the gamer's want to hear ... or to think of it another way, not telling them things that they feel might have bad PR connotations. Especially if they see negative reactions on the internet if their competitor has already stated they are doing X thing which Sony also plan to do. In this case, Sony just won't talk about it, or if their plans are different they'll make sure everyone knows they are doing it differently and even take snide jabs at the competition ... even if they think they'll also be doing it at some point in the near future.

In this case, MS announced their games would support the previous generation consoles and a vocal minority on the internet started gnashing their teeth. So, Sony, just felt it would be better just to not say anything about it and focus on what a wonderful new generation the PS5 would be and how it enables wonderful new experiences.

It's all about the PR. But, while they could do a better job with just telling gamers what they are going to do, at least they are doing what I would consider the "right" thing by allowing people that can't jump to the new generation (whether due to finances or supply shortages) the ability to play the games regardless of whether they are still stuck with a PS4 or not.

Also, as people will find out as the generation goes on, cross generational games don't necessarily mean sacrificing quality if the next generation was targeted and then made to work on the previous generation. Not all game's or game types can really leverage all the additional CPU power in such a way that CPU intensive effects can't be reduced to enable it to work on the previous generation.

It'll be the very rare game where the CPU is so integral that there is no way to reduce it enough. MS mentioned Forza Motorsport, but this is likely just really minutely detailed physics simulations for the vehicle and its components, likely being modeled at 120 Hz or higher, likely extended to multiple vehicles. Something like HZ: FW would never in a million years require anything like that. So anything CPU, GPU, or I/O intensive in that game can easily be reduced such that it would work on the PS4 without compromising the PS5 version of the game. And even in Forza Motorsport's case, if Turn 10 wanted to, they could likely reduce those simulations for the XBO while still keeping most of the "feel" of driving.

Regards,
SB
 
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I'm happy with the upgrade on the games - the controller is also lovely, the games that take advantage of the SSD are amazing - so I'm happy with the purchase...but, the fact most PS4 games can't maximise the SSD and the lack of decent suspend (XSX years ahead) and now lack of true exclusives are jarring.
It's alright; feeling duped is what angers most people. But the reality is, not all studios will be able to move that fast either. Engines need to be completely reoverhauled to support the new I/O. Level designers need to think differently, all the new things that SSD I/O speeds make open up all sorts of new possibilities, but that also opens up challenges they've never faced necessarily, new problems to solve.

Even if all the games were PS5 based, they may still play like PS4 games for a little while. We're often sold on how hardware is restrictive, but the minds take time to find new ways to play games as well. Even if I make a game targeting the best system, it's likely to end up playing like a game stuck in the ps3 days.

Games today are not inherently different from games back then. Ability and RPG based trees were around a long time ago, we just see a lot of different genre of games come together -- but not necessarily designed games that couldn't be made back then. Those take a while I think, the last major innovation I think was this battle royale style game setup - some could argue that this is an evolution of things we've largely had already though like the battlefield games, Tribes etc.
 
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It's alright; feeling duped is what kills most people. But the reality is, not all studios will be able to move that fast either. Engines need to be completely reoverhauled to support the new I/O. Level designers need to think differently, all the new things that SSD I/O speeds make open up all sorts of new possibilities, but that also opens up challenges they've never faced necessarily, new problems to solve.

Even if all the games were PS5 based, they may still play like PS4 games for a little while. We're often sold on how hardware is restrictive, but the minds take time to find new ways to play games as well. Even if I make a game targeting the best system, it's likely to end up playing like a game stuck in the ps3 days.

And if we're talking about gameplay. I can't think of a single game in the PS4/XBO generation that couldn't have been played on PS2/Xbox. Obviously the graphics quality would be massively reduced, but the gameplay for pretty much any game from the last generation could be replicated on those consoles.

New hardware doesn't necessarily change the gameplay, it only changes how one experiences the game (graphics, convenience, etc.). The last time gameplay changed significantly on console due to hardware? When 3D games enabled fully 3D roaming of worlds. However, even that didn't necessarily require new hardware. We've had 3D games since the Amiga and even the Atari 2600 had some very rudimentary 3D games. But it did take someone at some point thinking, "Hey why don't I try this new idea?" and suddenly we have one of the first 3D FPS games, Battlezone in 1980. :p

Anyone wanting new gameplay innovations? Don't look to new hardware generations, look to indie developers. Eventually a AAA game developer will implement some of those new gameplay ideas from the indie space but this time with AAA polish.

Regards,
SB
 
And if we're talking about gameplay. I can't think of a single game in the PS4/XBO generation that couldn't have been played on PS2/Xbox. Obviously the graphics quality would be massively reduced, but the gameplay for pretty much any game from the last generation could be replicated on those consoles.

New hardware doesn't necessarily change the gameplay, it only changes how one experiences the game (graphics, convenience, etc.). The last time gameplay changed significantly on console due to hardware? When 3D games enabled fully 3D roaming of worlds. However, even that didn't necessarily require new hardware. We've had 3D games since the Amiga and even the Atari 2600 had some very rudimentary 3D games. But it did take someone at some point thinking, "Hey why don't I try this new idea?" and suddenly we have one of the first 3D FPS games, Battlezone in 1980. :p

Anyone wanting new gameplay innovations? Don't look to new hardware generations, look to indie developers. Eventually a AAA game developer will implement some of those new gameplay ideas from the indie space.

Regards,
SB
Yea, I think the real-time strategy genre dying off was perhaps the most disappointing of it all, and the new genres coming in, like the story walker ones, feels, like we lost something big.
 
One thing I'm hoping for is gt7 allowing ps5 specific races with more cars on the track. And maybe also some ps5 specific tracks/features. Use RT for dynamic day of time+weather and keep using baked assets for ps4?

edit. Racetrack would be perfect use case for ue5 and nanite + streaming. Maybe someone will try it out. No point keeping part of track in memory that is not yet visible. Use all ram for visible assets. That's the way ssd can help versus ps4 which has very limited streaming speed and ram.
 
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