Sony VR Headset/Project Morpheus/PlayStation VR

[Deleted member 86764]

And the others in this field haven't? They just grabbed components at random?

Of course not. The PC VR headsets have different requirements compared to a console, fixed specification, hardware. PS4 has lower power compared to a decent PC, so requires an elegant solution for the box (1080p + interpolation + RGB)

While, again, the rendering requirements are decoupled from the display resolution. You don't have to render native res. A 1440p RGB display would be better for Sony to display a 1080p game render than 1080p RGB.

You could do, I'm not sure if it'll look better though. I'd always prefer to render at my screen's native resolution, but whether it eliminates the screendoor effect I have no idea.

 

[MrFox]

I'm going to ramble a bit about megapixels...

There's no easy way to give a number to the consumers. We went from "lines of resolution" in the analog days, to "X*Y resolution" in the digital RGB world, to "megapixels" in the new advanced pixel structure for both cameras and displays.

Today the consumer understands the word megapixel because they have a point of reference: the sharpness and detail they get from their own 5 megapixel or 12 megapixel camera, or whatever. Megapixel will forever means the number of photosites (or sub pixels).

If you want a sharp image in 1080p RGB, you need a 5 megapixel camera, and 2 megapixel is barely 480p in sharpness.

The megapixel number is the best we have. It's not perfect because a different pixel arrangement can improve the image without increasing that number. Counting megapixels makes pentile look worse than it is, but X*Y resolution makes it look better than it is. It's somewhere in-between and there's no metric that can give an exact answer.

6MP pentile is better 6MP RGB.
1080p RGB is better than 1080p pentile.
1440p pentile is at least equal or better than 1080p RGB. Most of the times better unless the image have no green content (??)

For VR the resolving power is not as important as how visible the pixel structure is. There are trick being employed on both Morpheus and Oculus that can improve this.

 

[chris1515]

And the others in this field haven't? They just grabbed components at random? While, again, the rendering requirements are decoupled from the display resolution. You don't have to render native res. A 1440p RGB display would be better for Sony to display a 1080p game render than 1080p RGB.

Does a 1440p RGB display is available on the market I don't think so or maybe it is a cost decision too.

 

[onQ]

And the others in this field haven't? They just grabbed components at random? While, again, the rendering requirements are decoupled from the display resolution. You don't have to render native res. A 1440p RGB display would be better for Sony to display a 1080p game render than 1080p RGB.

You think it would be better for them to use a 1440p display when the games will be 1080p with all the other pixels just going to waste?

Sony would get eaten alive for claiming a 1440p VR set with 1080P VR games.

 

[MrFox]

I'm guessing moving up to a 1440p would make them lose the 120Hz. And good bye 18ms latency?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Does a 1440p RGB display is available on the market I don't think so or maybe it is a cost decision too.

1440p is available (Galaxy Notes). Cost is an issue, as is refresh rate.

You think it would be better for them to use a 1440p display when the games will be 1080p with all the other pixels just going to waste?

They don't go to waste. More pixels means smaller pixels and less screen-door issues.

Sony would get eaten alive for claiming a 1440p VR set with 1080P VR games.

Don't claim it's 1440p. List the specs as using 1440p screens and call it a 1080p display. But I'm not even advocating Sony make a switch anyhow! Just correcting folk who say outright that Pentile is no good for VR. At high enough res, it'll be as good as RGB.

I'm guessing moving up to a 1440p would make them lose the 120Hz. And good bye 18ms latency?

It could also just be a cost issue. Higher res is better, and importantly doesn't need to be natively rendered, but there are many factors involved. Sourcing a 120 Hz panel may be tricky as there's little need in mobiles, so it may be a custom job?

 

[chris1515]

1440p is available (Galaxy Notes). Cost is an issue, as is refresh rate.

They don't go to waste. More pixels means smaller pixels and less screen-door issues.

Don't claim it's 1440p. List the specs as using 1440p screens and call it a 1080p display. But I'm not even advocating Sony make a switch anyhow! Just correcting folk who say outright that Pentile is no good for VR. At high enough res, it'll be as good as RGB.


It could also just be a cost issue. Higher res is better, and importantly doesn't need to be natively rendered, but there are many factors involved. Sourcing a 120 Hz panel may be tricky as there's little need in mobiles, so it may be a custom job?

Galaxy Note 4 Is pentile

 

[chris1515]

http://www.phonearena.com/news/Note...a-PenTile-diamond-pixel-matrix-screen_id63402

 

[MrFox]

It could also just be a cost issue. Higher res is better, and importantly doesn't need to be natively rendered, but there are many factors involved. Sourcing a 120 Hz panel may be tricky as there's little need in mobiles, so it may be a custom job?

Well, they did say it was a custom pixel structure and the previous LCD also had custom drivers. So it's almost a given they are still doing custom screens. I can't wait to learn who makes them.

Maybe they did the same trick from prototype 1 last year. From what I understand the limitations of driving TFT on glass are pretty much the same between LCD and OLED. So maybe the scan speed suffers the same limitations too?

Yoshida-san also mentioned that the LCD used with Project Morpheus is an especially made panel that isn’t the common vertical scan type, but a horizontal scan type that is much faster at updating horizontally adjacent pixels with a side scrolling image, and can dramatically reduce the afterimage effect of the picture.

So that could explain why Sony are the only ones with a 120Hz panel?

 

[DieH@rd]

I'm guessing moving up to a 1440p would make them lose the 120Hz. And good bye 18ms latency?

PS4 is limited with HDMI 1.4 [presumably 1.4b], so they will never move above 1080p120.

 

[MrFox]

PS4 is limited with HDMI 1.4 [presumably 1.4b], so they will never move above 1080p120.

They have an ASIC on board that does the geometry and CA correction, that could be used to upscale to 1440p. It would need to be twice as powerful, so much more expensive?

Before HD or bluray, we used scan-quadruplers costing thousands of dollars just to upres a DVD to 960p (or a videodisc from 480i composite to 960p, don't laugh, it was awesome), that looked a LOT better than seeing the scanlines (on CRT projectors), or screendoor (LCD), it was a bit soft but silky smooth compared to an LCD or plasma displaying at 480p native.

They really need a clever scheme to smudge the pixels optically.

 

[tuna]

PS4 is limited with HDMI 1.4 [presumably 1.4b], so they will never move above 1080p120.

They could do their own protocol for Morpheus if they want.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Galaxy Note 4 Is pentile

My bad. It appears 1440p OLEDs are Pentile.

PS4 is limited with HDMI 1.4 [presumably 1.4b], so they will never move above 1080p120.

It's also greatly limited by processing power! You don't need to render at native res to benefit from a higher resolution panel.

 

[chris1515]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-03-10-yoshida

Interesting Yoshida and Richard Marks Interview

Q: How do you make the sure the general public can try it in large numbers?

Richard Marks: It's a challenge - you can't broadcast VR out there without having the hardware so we need to get it in front of as many people as possible. I think once we get it into the homes, once we actually start selling it, that's when you'll see this explosion of people being able to show it to their friends.

Shuhei Yoshida: One thing we designed as a feature into Morpheus is to let your TV show the clear picture of what the person wearing the headset is doing. So we can design games, like a Wii U game, one person is holding the big controller and the other people are watching the big TV, three people are using the DualShock 4, playing with the person in the headset or playing against the person in the headset.

So we don't have the demo like that today but we are planning to show some examples of that at later events this year.

 

[London Geezer]

Shuhei Yoshida: One thing we designed as a feature into Morpheus is to let your TV show the clear picture of what the person wearing the headset is doing. So we can design games, like a Wii U game, one person is holding the big controller and the other people are watching the big TV, three people are using the DualShock 4, playing with the person in the headset or playing against the person in the headset.

That could turn into a total nightmare for the person in the VR set, but sounds very fun.

 

[Gradthrawn]

That could turn into a total nightmare for the person in the VR set, but sounds very fun.

You've already lost the moment you put on a VR headset with 3 people around you. You've basically blindfolded yourself. Whether what ensues is fun or not will probably vary greatly from person to person, group to group.

 

[London Geezer]

You've already lost the moment you put on a VR headset with 3 people around you. You've basically blindfolded yourself. Whether what ensues after that is fun or not will probably vary greatly from person to person, group to group.

There should be a strictly enforced no poking rule.

 

[idsn6]

That could turn into a total nightmare for the person in the VR set, but sounds very fun.

You mean, a total Knightmare.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Just tried Oculus Rift Dev Kit 2, and I have to say, the image quality is pretty terrible. 1080p is not enough. Not even close. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, but you can see the individual pixels of the screen. It's like pressing your face against an old sdtv and seeing the gaps between the pixels. Maybe Morpheus has comfort figured out. Oculus DK2 does not. It's really uncomfortable, and awkward to adjust. It never felt comfortable to wear. If the thing isn't sitting perfectly so your eye is in line with the centre of the lens, it distorts the image. Nothing ever really seemed very sharp to me. I did the eye adjustment thing in the config tool just as it said to, but if text went too far to the edge of the screen it would blur. It's like having things blur before it normally would in your peripheral vision. It really does give you the impression that you're in that place, but the image quality just isn't good enough to make it really feel like you're there. That and the head mapping has to get a lot better. When you turn your head and the camera doesn't move as much as you feel like it should, it really throws you off. I've gone from being very excited about the tech to being a big time skeptic. There is an absolutely huge way to go. Maybe Morpheus will do it, but I think we'll need much much more powerful computers with higher resolution displays to get it right.

Edit: Also, chromatic abberation is a huge issue. These lenses make the edges of anything white turn into a rainbow. I have another three or four days with it to figure out the nitty gritty.

 

[Delta9]

Just tried Oculus Rift Dev Kit 2, and I have to say, the image quality is pretty terrible. 1080p is not enough. Not even close. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, but you can see the individual pixels of the screen. It's like pressing your face against an old sdtv and seeing the gaps between the pixels. Maybe Morpheus has comfort figured out. Oculus DK2 does not. It's really uncomfortable, and awkward to adjust. It never felt comfortable to wear. If the thing isn't sitting perfectly so your eye is in line with the centre of the lens, it distorts the image. Nothing ever really seemed very sharp to me. I did the eye adjustment thing in the config tool just as it said to, but if text went too far to the edge of the screen it would blur. It's like having things blur before it normally would in your peripheral vision. It really does give you the impression that you're in that place, but the image quality just isn't good enough to make it really feel like you're there. That and the head mapping has to get a lot better. When you turn your head and the camera doesn't move as much as you feel like it should, it really throws you off. I've gone from being very excited about the tech to being a big time skeptic. There is an absolutely huge way to go. Maybe Morpheus will do it, but I think we'll need much much more powerful computers with higher resolution displays to get it right.

Tech people on the internet got to STOP saying resolution doesn't matter. Every time someone says something like 2k/4k don't look much better or whatever, is just slowing progress.