Sony VR Headset/Project Morpheus/PlayStation VR

[goonergaz]

and now a youtube showing the mess...erm...connections;

 

[DieH@rd]

lol this is great [starts at 1min 30sec]

 

[orangpelupa]

and now a youtube showing the mess...erm...connections;

Yeesh that first setup...

Hopefully digitalfoundry will make comparison between direct connect and passes through Psvr box.

Does it add lag? Signal quality? Bugs? Currently ps4 already quiete finicky with it'd audio settings with direct connection.

 

[goonergaz]

more impressions and info...apparently mini PS4 is just a suped-up splitter

 

[Deleted member 11852]

and now a youtube showing the mess...erm...connections;

Yeah, PSVR is cable hell. I would actually considering buying another PS4 if they release a version with the mess built in.

My AV centre has cable management but isn't not going to be able to 'manage' that Medusa's mess.

 

[orangpelupa]

more impressions and info...apparently mini PS4 is just a suped-up splitter

Why people keeps saying the external box is upping to 120?

Its the ps4 itself my. Argh

 

[Clukos]

edit: woops beaten!

 

[DieH@rd]

Does it add lag?

Headset gets direct feed without any touching by PU. PU then teakes that feed and prepares TV feed. This adds lag on TV.

apparently mini PS4 is just a suped-up splitter

 

[orangpelupa]

Headset gets direct feed without any touching by PU. PU then teakes that feed and prepares TV feed. This adds lag on TV.

I mean when you are playing normal, classic TV game. Does it totally turned off and become passive past through. So no lag added.

Or something happens?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There can't be passive display in virtual cinema mode. You'd have to have static 3D/2D for that. But the lag is ~20 ms and the displays are super low latency, so probaly way faster than most TVs even with virtual cinema.

 

[Arwin]

Importantly with the box they've achieved an option to do all your existing PS4 stuff inside the headset with no additional cost. And it is definitely a very important social factor that people can see what you are seeing, let alone having the second screen features for local multiplayer and such. And of course the binaural sound at no extra cost helps too.

 

[Egmon83]

Is it possible to display a game of tetris on the social screen when you are playing Summer Lesson? Just in case your woman/wife/partner switch to the PS4 channel..

 

[MrFox]

The judder they're talking about is from animated elements within the scene. For those things, yes of course you'll get motion artifacts when you have an irregular rendering rate. The head tracking however is not disturbed by that with positional reprojection because you have the tracking information and necessary scene information to construct a frame. It's POV interpolation, not scene interpolation.

If you look at a static cubemap in VR you're essentially looking at a 0 FPS scene that's reprojected to whatever your display rate is. If it were an animated cubemap (say, a room with an object in it moving back and forth) an irregular animation rate will result in the object not being tracked consistently by your eye, resulting in a similar judder artifact produced by full persistence displays.

I'm not arguing that constantly hovering between 70-90fps on a 90Hz HMD results in a negligible difference and can be ignored by developers, but rather that brief dips below 90fps are often imperceptible because you don't get that nasty kicked-in-the-head feeling that we used to when you miss a buffer swap.

Yes, I agree.

I don't understand why you think we're in disagreement. The link you posted starts off with "synchronous timewarp (ATW) is a technique that generates intermediate frames in situations when the game can’t maintain frame rate, helping to reduce judder.", so clearly what I said above is exactly right. I never said it was perfect, obviously you want to have full frame rate, but if and when you do drop frames, ATW (aka re-projection) will fill in the blanks with the result being that you never drop a frame to the display.

My point was simply that if you're already using ATW to double your frame rate from 60->120 fps, then drops below 60fps (say into the high 50's) are probably going to be a lot more noticeable than drops into the mid 80's when you're outputting at 90hz. That's why, while Oculus are also pushing for a native 90fps, it's unsurprising that Sony are being more strict with the 60fps requirement.

The only thing I disagree with is the idea that dropped frames have more impact at 60-120 than 90-90. Sony wouldn't allow a game with a frame rate dropping occasionally to 80, they tell the devs to either optimize until they get 90 stable, or use the 60->120 mode. They say dropped frames are bad and cause discomfort, so does Oculus in their best practice document.

Oculus says ATW reduces the judder compared to not using reprojection at all. This is about head rotation, not scene movements. For head rotation, it could be rendering at 10fps or 1000fps without any visible change. The problem of mismatched frame rate or frame drops is about translations, as hughj said above.

60->120 dropped frames would break scene movements with a frame being reused for 24ms instead of the normal 16ms. The glitch would last 8ms.

90->90 dropped frames would break scene movements with a frame being reused for 22ms instead of the the normal 11ms. The glitch would last 11ms.

So to use the examples we have...
55->120 is 5 dropped frames per second, 8ms error each.
80->90 is 10 dropped frames per second, 11ms error each.

Both may or may not be very noticeable, but with reprojection, this error is relative to the scanout rate, not the rendering rate. Frame time becomes the number of scanout it occupies.

Caveat: There is a serious additional artifact from doubling frames 60->120, but it's unrelated to dropped frame. It also doesn't cause discomfort because this artifact is stable and time-accurate.

 

[hughJ]

Oculus says ATW reduces the judder compared to not using reprojection at all. This is about head rotation, not scene movements. For head rotation, it could be rendering at 10fps or 1000fps without any visible change. The problem of mismatched frame rate or frame drops is about translations, as hughj said above.

Head rotation and translation with Oculus because it's performing a full transformation including the depth buffer, not just shifting a flat buffer around.

 

[pjbliverpool]

From this the only conclusions i can get to is either Oculus has been engineered inefficiently (which i don't believe), or it is using significantly higher quality materials than PSVR(which i don't believe once again)

Well Oculus apparently weighs about 450g with the headphones while PSVR weighs 610g without. So that certainly suggests higher quality materials.

Other sources of the increased price would be the 2 screens vs 1, bundled headphones, bundled camera, bundled Gamepad/remote and bundles games.

I don't doubt that Sony is still getting a good advantage from it's manufacturing base/experience though.

55->120 is 5 dropped frames per second, 8ms error each.
80->90 is 10 dropped frames per second, 11ms error each.

Surely the impact is greater in the case of 55->120 since for every dropped real frame, you're not only having to fill in with one re-projected frame (at 8ms), but you're having to create a second re-projected frame (another 8ms) based on the first re-projected frame which in itself is likely to introduce inaccuracies.

 

[hughJ]

So that certainly suggests higher quality materials.

Or a decision to sacrifice sturdiness of the design. We'll have to wait and see how the HMDs hold up to use and abuse for 6-12 months. This is Oculus's first rodeo after all, so it's really hard to say how efficiently or intelligently they've made their manufacturing decisions.

 

[MrFox]

Head rotation and translation with Oculus because it's performing a full transformation including the depth buffer, not just shifting a flat buffer around.

Ah, this could be a big differentiating factor. It might be too costly on PS4, they never indicated using a depth buffer as far as I can tell. When Marks described it he said "it's a bit more complicated than shifting and rotating the image, but that's the general idea".

 

[Egmon83]

PSVR actually uses a counterweight for maximum comfort, so the weight is higher regardless of quality.
Though I guess those 3 subpixels per pixel add up to the weight

 

[MrFox]

Well Oculus apparently weighs about 450g with the headphones while PSVR weighs 610g without. So that certainly suggests higher quality materials.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Or a decision to sacrifice sturdiness of the design. We'll have to wait and see how the HMDs hold up to use and abuse for 6-12 months. This is Oculus's first rodeo after all, so it's really hard to say how efficiently or intelligently they've made their manufacturing decisions.

Yep good point