Sony PS3 Q+A (Leaked)

[Titanio]

Well it would need to be made much more user friendly for starters.

To do what, exactly..? I'm not making any argument for what PS3 Linux will do to appeal to casual users.

You said:

I think it's a good bet to stay skeptical here instead of gushing about all the great 'pc-like' functions you'll be doing. If you get your hopes up for great PC like functionality, chances are, you're going to be dissapointed...

And I'm gently reminding of the PS2 Linux experience. It was a valid Linux distro, the only key limitation was no access to the DVD drive (but that's not needed to take advantage of its "PC like" functionality).

Since when was ease of use a criteria for providing PC like functionality, anyway? Many linux distros are for the more technically inclined, I don't think you can claim they're not PCs or "PC like". That's irrelevant to this point.

On a general note, though, you might want to try something like Red Hat. If you don't want to dig too deep into nuts and bolts and just want to use some applications, I certainly would not call it difficult to use.

 

[scooby_dooby]

To do what, exactly..? I'm not making any argument for what PS3 Linux will do to appeal to casual users.

And I'm gently reminding of the PS2 Linux experience. It was a valid Linux distro, the only key limitation was no access to the DVD drive (but that's not needed to take advantage of its "PC like" functionality).

Since when was ease of use a criteria for providing PC like functionality, anyway? Many linux distros are for the more technically inclined, I don't think you can claim they're not PCs or "PC like". That's irrelevant to this point.

On a general note, though, you might want to try something like Red Hat. If you don't want to dig too deep into nuts and bolts and just want to use some applications, I certainly would not call it difficult to use.

So we agree that most people will likely have no use for the PC functions in the PS3? Unless they signifigantly overhaul the user interface among many other things that would be required to make it accessible?

I guess my definition of pc-like is something that is actually useable for mainstream consumers, much of the talk in this thread has revolved around PS3 somewhat 'replacing' a low-end PC, which I find extremely overly optimistic.

I use RedHat at work, it runs our webserver but I administer it all remotely through command line, I've only even seen the GUI once when we got hacked and I had to go in manually and configure the firewall. It's still far to complex for Joe Blow.

 

[TheChefO]

Amazing...

So you guys basically take Sony's PR talk as factual? Laughable.

People really have a short memory. If the past has shown us something is that nothing said by sony can be believed untill one has confirmed the information by ourselves.

Agreed - anything said by any of these companies through pr (yes this linked document is pr) should be scrutinized not only for what it says but why they are saying it. Some here seem to grasp that while others insist on taking pr as gospel.

Sony specifically though has a bad record of reality not living up to promises. Anyone looking at this document without FB glasses on can see what they're agenda is.

 

[Phil]

So we agree that most people will likely have no use for the PC functions in the PS3? Unless they signifigantly overhaul the user interface among many other things that would be required to make it accessible?

I guess my definition of pc-like is something that is actually useable for mainstream consumers, much of the talk in this thread has revolved around PS3 somewhat 'replacing' a low-end PC, which I find extremely overly optimistic.

I use RedHat at work, it runs our webserver but I administer it all remotely through command line, I've only even seen the GUI once when we got hacked and I had to go in manually and configure the firewall. It's still far to complex for Joe Blow.

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that Linux is not limited to a single GUI. I really don't know which one you were confronted with, but I'd call KDE or GNOME very userfriendly. While it still has some way to go to come anywhere close to being as friendly and fool-proof like windows, it has come along way. In fact, after playing around with a standard SuSE 10.0 distro I'd say it matches up very close to Windows already and should be sufficient enough for the average user that wants to do very simple things. In fact, I set up my PS2linux to be very user friendly as well - once you get it to start up directly to the prefered desktop (i.e. KDE), I'm not what could be more userfriendly about it.

Anyway, I think we're getting a bit off-topic here. Fact is, Linux will be shipped with PS3 and that in itself will give all the PC functionality you could hope for - user-friendly or not. If it will in fact be usable to the average consumer outthere really depends on the distro and how it is setup.

 

[patsu]

Maybe they pull it off, but I wouldn't expect to see too much in Nov. Maybe Nov 2007 we'll start to see some of this roll out.

That's correct. All the features probably won't be delivered on time, but we know today that work has started on many fronts some time ago. There is a reason why early adoptors are called out in marketing: They have stronger stomach for disappointments in exchange for a weaker bladder to witness advances.

A quick run-down:

1) They had some set backs in Sony Connect last year (resulting in the departure of the Connect CTO), and now you hear more about SingStar, as a substitute for now, me thinks.

2) Backward compatibility is late, and we will have real PS2 chips in the first batch. So we should be ok here, fingers crossed

3) Blu-ray specification was the official reason for the delay to November. Blu-ray playing demoed in E3 2006. Blu-ray Dual Layer disk is late, we may only have single layer Blu-ray disk at PS3 launch. In general, things are progressing haphazardly on Blu-ray side.

4) Dropped "Rumble" from next-gen controller but gained 6-degree-of-freedom.

5) HDML v1.3 specifications made it.

6) DLNA was demoed on PSP in CES 2006. LocationFree is on the market in a separate box. But no final news on PS3 DLNA support or LocationFree yet.

7) No Linux sightings yet. Not even sure whether this will be available at launch.

8) No news for online except for some surveys. We also heard some murmurs regarding the online arcade (mini-games) front, plus the announcement of the "Beyond" program. But that's it.
I seem to recall a partnership announcement between Sony and GameSpy. Is that just for the SDKs or something bigger ? Anyone in the know ?

9) The first wave of games is a mix bag. My personal impression (Your mileage will vary): HS looks promising but only in 2007. Resistance: Fall of Men looks average so far (in next-gen sense), but plays like a fine FPS thanks to high framerate. Lair feels really like a dragon myth now (Everyone wants to experience it, but no one has). Motorstorm looks fun in first-person view (Looks meh in third-person view). Can't remember the rest.

10) Cross Media Bar, web browser is demoable/working but still missing:
* Multiple user profile support. Perhaps this is related to Linux (or perhaps not, I don't know)

11) Packaging. Went through a few iterations by now (shown in E3). Noise level is comparable to PSTwo. Power brick seems built-in (I like ! if it works well).

...

EDIT: Ok, I just remember IBM has a Linux version working on Cell Blade now. So it definitely exists today in 1 form or another.

 

[Titanio]

So we agree that most people will likely have no use for the PC functions in the PS3? Unless they signifigantly overhaul the user interface among many other things that would be required to make it accessible?

I guess my definition of pc-like is something that is actually useable for mainstream consumers

Haha. Look, you're switching the goal-posts as suits. That's not what PC-like means, if that's what we're arguing now.

much of the talk in this thread has revolved around PS3 somewhat 'replacing' a low-end PC, which I find extremely overly optimistic.

I wouldn't use it to replace any PC. But that's a seperate point altogether from whether it could act as one.

I use RedHat at work, it runs our webserver but I administer it all remotely through command line, I've only even seen the GUI once when we got hacked and I had to go in manually and configure the firewall. It's still far to complex for Joe Blow.

Try Red Hat FC 5 or 4. For just casual use of applications, it's really no more difficult than Windows. Click an icon, up pops the application. I mean, if you want, you can dive in and get your hands dirty, but for just using a browser or a word processor or whatever, it's very easy.

There may be even friendlier distros out there, but FC is really the only one I can speak of from experience. I know there are some aimed at friendliness as their top priority. Of course, I don't know what the PS3 distro will be like from this POV, but I imagine it'll style itself after a more recent Red Hat (as PS2's was at the time).

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Hypes

I don't remember MS making rediculous statements like anything less than 1080P is not HD. I don't remember MS at the 2005 E3 showing any tech demo like the killzone one.

I feel that is not "incorrect" information my friend but incorrect marketing. 2 Teraflops is false information to me but this is not.

What is correct technical "High Definition" is always changing and for movie maker, true high definition is 2 million pixels my friend. 720P is 0.921 Mega-Pixels. But what is important is marketing information (because for consumer, HD term is from marketing) and because Sony said to consumer only 1080P is real HD (correct for movie maker but incorrect for consumer) Sony has made it difficult for game developers to say they make 720P HD game. But normally consumer marketing says 720P is HD.

I am not hard core as you I don't think game machines should cost 500 or more dollars when they launch.

This is not hard-core, it is supply and demand economics my friend. Do you know US Government had court case for Toyota and Mazda because they said Toyota and Mazda was selling minivans too cheap?

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_n6_v28/ai_12275268

 

[scooby_dooby]

Haha. Look, you're switching the goal-posts as suits. That's not what PC-like means, if that's what we're arguing now.

I wouldn't use it to replace any PC. But that's a seperate point altogether from whether it could act as one.

I'm not 'switching goal posts' at all. I realize that technically the PS2 linux distro performed some PC-like functions. However, what we're discussing now is how that can be used in the home. When Sony compares themselves to Apple, and calls themselves PC-like, they are positioning themselves as an alternative to the PC, which means it must be useable for the casual consumer.

As you can see, many posters have bought into that concept hook line and sinker. Why do you think we're seeing comparisons of $299 Dell pc's + 360 to a PS3? Obviously some people think that the PS3 will actually be a viable replacement for the PC. I'm just pointing out the hilarity of that idea.

How feasible is it to expect a truly PC-like experience from PS3? How feasible is it to expect that it will replace web browsing, or email, for the casual consumer?

Lastly and most importantly, why should we give any benefit of the doubt to Sony given their track record?

 

[patsu]

Sony specifically though has a bad record of reality not living up to promises.

If you are objective, you'd know that the same goes for Microsoft today (e.g., Windows security, Vista, WebTV, Halo 2, ...), and Apple (in the 1990s) too ! It is not uncommon in the hi-tech industry because of the inherent risk. But this is OT.

 

[scooby_dooby]

If you are objective, you'd know that the same goes for Microsoft today (e.g., Windows security, Vista, WebTV, Halo 2, ...), and Apple (in the 1990s) too ! It is not uncommon in the hi-tech industry because of the inherent risk. But this is OT.

If you were objective you would see that, while no-one is perfect, Sony has one of the worst reputations in the business when it comes to following through on promises.

 

[patsu]

If you were objective you would see that, while no-one is perfect, Sony has one of the worst reputations in the business when it comes to following through on promises.

Isn't this what I said ?
"If you are objective, you'd know that the same goes for Microsoft today (e.g., Windows security, Vista, WebTV, Halo 2, ...), and Apple (in the 1990s) too ! It is not uncommon in the hi-tech industry because of the inherent risk."

So we are agreeing ?

 

[Titanio]

I'm not 'switching goal posts' at all. I realize that technically the PS2 linux distro performed some PC-like functions. However, what we're discussing now is how that can be used in the home.

All my arguments have been concerned with is the classification of the system.

Like I initially argued, by the broad definition of a computer, PS3 more than qualifies, as does any VG system.

But if you insist on drilling down and comparing to a PC, even there it probably will be possible to term it as such if you want, looking at Linux on PS2.

When Sony compares themselves to Apple, and calls themselves PC-like, they are positioning themselves as an alternative to the PC, which means it must be useable for the casual consumer.

Kutaragi was comparing their model/vision. A relatively closed hardware model with an open software model. I don't think that was intended to draw comparison between the user experience on Linux PS3 and on a Mac!

To summarise, again, as it happens I don't see PS3 as being a substitute for a PC in most homes at all (at least little more than any other console is). But that's not the argument I'm taking on here. Joe casual is not going to use it as a desktop PC (irrelevant to its classification), but it's awesome for people like me, and all I hope is that the standard availability of something like Linux will provide a much wider audience for homebrew efforts on the platform than is typically enjoyed by the homebrew community.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Web & email

How feasible is it to expect a truly PC-like experience from PS3? How feasible is it to expect that it will replace web browsing, or email, for the casual consumer?

Because more people have broadband and networking this is very likely for normal people my friend. I think you will do this too unless you are hard-core computer geek type and like to always customize hardware and OS. Most consumer only cares about getting email, IM and web browser for myspace, news, sports, and other things.

 

[TheChefO]

If you were objective you would see that, while no-one is perfect, Sony has one of the worst reputations in the business when it comes to following through on promises.

Agreed - but perhaps my wording was a bit strong. Maybe not "promises" but certainly hmm ... it's hard to put into words ... things like "jacking into the matrix" or "ps2 is so powerful it could lauch balistic missles". I guess it's more a general impression they give off about their systems which to regular Joe Schmoe equates to superiority without any way to tangibly test this superiority and hence buying on faith or "potential".

Agreed this is off topic and getting back on topic, this is a pr document guiding Sony employees in how to respond to these typical questions about ps3. The only thing I'm a bit surprised with is they didn't throw "Super" in there somewhere to really drive home the point on "2teraflops!".

At this point it seems they are content with spinning the high price in any way possible and the latest is the computer argument. Personally I would love to see them actually come through on this promise and deliver a tangible alternative to a 2nd pc for the living room. But then I'm not holding my breath on Sony PR. We'll see what they actually deliver this time.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Isn't this what I said ?
"If you are objective, you'd know that the same goes for Microsoft today (e.g., Windows security, Vista, WebTV, Halo 2, ...), and Apple (in the 1990s) too ! It is not uncommon in the hi-tech industry because of the inherent risk."

So we are agreeing ?

No. I think Apple and MS both have far more credibility than Sony, not to say the other guys are angels but....

Titanio - We don't disagree. My original post was probably misworded, I said don't hold your breath for PC functionality. Well, we may well get some pc functionality, i.e. ps2 linux distro, but I highly doubt it will presented in a useable form for the mainstream consumers.

I don't think that was intended to draw comparison between the user experience on Linux PS3 and on a Mac!

Well if you look through the thread, you'll see some people have certainly got the impression that this may be the case.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Reputaion

If you were objective you would see that, while no-one is perfect, Sony has one of the worst reputations in the business when it comes to following through on promises.

I cannot say I agree my friend. If we look at last gen to make this judgement, then we can see PS2 performance is what they say it will be and all specification information Sony provided was correct information no?

So if we are "objective" we can see that for last gen, only Microsoft (not Nintendo or Sony) made too many incorrect hypes:

Original Xbox:
4 Giga-Pixels fill-rate (same as Xbox360)
70-80 Giga-flops (~12x PS2)
Toy Story graphics (crazy, no?)

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-250632.html
"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"

For this gen, Sony has already made some incorrect hype like 2 Teraflops like Microsoft but that is not history, that is now and future. So if we are objective and look at history, Sony has been correct with promises, but we already know that for future Sony will not make follow through on promises because we know PS3 really is not 2 Teraflops.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Because more people have broadband and networking this is very likely for normal people my friend. I think you will do this too unless you are hard-core computer geek type and like to always customize hardware and OS. Most consumer only cares about getting email, IM and web browser for myspace, news, sports, and other things.

The question is how feasible is it that Sony will actually deliver this functionality. Given their past promises, and the overall state of their software, I would say not very.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I cannot say I agree my friend. If we look at last gen to make this judgement, then we can see PS2 performance is what they say it will be and all specification information Sony provided was correct information no?

So if we are "objective" we can see that for last gen, only Microsoft (not Nintendo or Sony) made too many incorrect hypes:

Original Xbox:
4 Giga-Pixels fill-rate (same as Xbox360)
70-80 Giga-flops (~12x PS2)
Toy Story graphics (crazy, no?)

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-250632.html
"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"

For this gen, Sony has already made some incorrect hype like 2 Teraflops like Microsoft but that is not history, that is now and future. So if we are objective and look at history, Sony has been correct with promises, but we already know that for future Sony will not make follow through on promises because we know PS3 really is not 2 Teraflops.

This debate is way too old to get into again. Sufficed to say, nobody should believe a word that comes out of Sony's mouth anymore after all the hype they've failed to live up to over the years.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

?

This debate is way too old to get into again. Sufficed to say, nobody should believe a word that comes out of Sony's mouth anymore after all the hype they've failed to live up to over the years.

What hype my friend?

 

[patsu]

Agreed - but perhaps my wording was a bit strong. Maybe not "promises" but certainly hmm ... it's hard to put into words ... things like "jacking into the matrix" or "ps2 is so powerful it could lauch balistic missles". I guess it's more a general impression they give off about their systems which to regular Joe Schmoe equates to superiority without any way to tangibly test this superiority and hence buying on faith or "potential".

Yes PR or just personal opinion (uncue'd).

Please, if you advise people not to follow PR talks, why are you setting the example yourself ? It forces me to counter it in order to discredit PR (again and again).

For the record, according to IGN, Peter Moore at 2005 E3 said, "Next generation games will combine unprecedented audio and visual experiences to create worlds that are beyond real and they'll deliver storylines and gameplay so compelling that it will feel like living a lucid dream. The result is a state where you achieve the perfect mind-body equilibrium as you forget your physical surroundings and you become completely immersed in the game itself; this controller becomes an extension of your body, it becomes the gateway to the Zen of gaming.".

That's a lot of words for "Jack into the matrix" ?

Finally, Apple said similar things about super-computers and G4.

Some military computers do not need to be powerful. They need to be reliable. So PS2's power may be sufficient to launch missile (but not control it in real-time, or not reliable enough for mission-critical process control). I used to port a real-time radar tracking system at the Defense Science Organization of a certain country for 2 years. We were only using not-so-advanced Motorola chips for some of these stuff.

Let's just focus on the next-gen gaming. I'm still suspicious of the Q&A document since it sounds too good, and too complete to me.

Personally I would love to see them actually come through on this promise and deliver a tangible alternative to a 2nd pc for the living room. But then I'm not holding my breath on Sony PR. We'll see what they actually deliver this time.

That's right. I am actually curious how many people put their consoles in the study room (which makes more sense as a PC work place, than the living room)... especially if you don't have HDTV yet and wants to play off monitors. Mine is in the living room.