Well duh. I'm sorry, but who has ever said otherwise? PS3 was clearly outselling X360 since the launch of slim, this flipped with the X360S and the numbers had been close (but still roughly X360>PS3) prior to Move. It's a give that since X360S has sold more units.
Sony Posts its numbers
- Thread starter eastmen
- Start date
- Status
Well duh. I'm sorry, but who has ever said otherwise? PS3 was clearly outselling X360 since the launch of slim, this flipped with the X360S and the numbers had been close (but still roughly X360>PS3) prior to Move. It's a give that since X360S has sold more units.
At over $1000 USD, yes.
Is that an official Sony sale or grey imports from the States?
DuckThor Evil
Legend
Well the Sony quarter shipment number does try to give that impression that PS3 has been selling more, and many are saying it aswell. I think they are just expecting a good holiday season and stuffed the channel in preparation for it
Official, Brazil has crazy taxes for foreign made products.
edit: grey imports are actually much cheaper.
Last edited by a moderator:
Counting GT5, Move, and other games delayed to early next year. It may just be their logistics working… although they should get more standalone Move controllers out.
Perhaps MS's shipment will arrive slightly later than usual because they are waiting for Kinect ?
One can always think of new stories to tell just by looking at snapshot numbers. There is not enough info to tell whether the companies over-ship or under-ship.
It's an on-going operational challenge. People here treat it like some sort of vanity test scores.
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
The link shows that Sony is supposedly reporting numbers sold through to the customer. A page or so back, someone claimed Sony reports "sold to retailers" numbers. What does that link say about that?
DuckThor Evil
Legend
I don't think it shows that at all. Sony doesn't use terms like "installed base" or sell through in their financial reports. They probably use those/estimate internally, but that's not what they report. They report sold to retail.
I do think Sony is going to sell massive amounts of PS3s in Europe once they get GT5 out. I think there still are plenty of hibernating PS2 owners that are just waiting for that game.
Well yes, all I was saying that the post was stating the obvious. In the last year Sony have closed the gap from ~7m to ~4m and are currently (without Kinect figures) outselling X360 (since Move). Sony are/were no doubt expecting a good Christmas with GT5 (and LBP2) both due for xmas (previously)
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
I'm going by the direct quote, which is very clear, from an official Sony source. It seems you are going by a feeling, otherwise I need to see a direct quote countering the quote provided.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
You'r going by few lines of text by some unnamed Sony rep, who is not even talking about their financial reporting... It does not say anywhere in your link that they use sell through as the number in their financial reports.
Sony can't have up to date information on exact sold to consumer numbers, when the retail channel is so huge, but they do have the information on how many they have sold to retail, and there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't use that number in their reporting.
I quess I have to try to google some link for you, even if it's common sense...
edit: You have to understand that when Sony has sold an unit to retail, it counts as a sale for them, whether they got paid on it already or whether it's sales receivables in their balance sheet. They are not going to report lower numbers, just because a retailer hasn't reselled their inventory yet.
Last edited by a moderator:
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
I guess, if you're a conspiracy theorist, the whole "unnamed Sony rep" and believing they are using multiple counting methods (one for internal, another for financial reports, and/or yet another method for other public sales), that clear quote about the counting method would be mighty cloudy in meaning. I'm not quite one of those people.
It's common to have multiple definitions and numbers to track within different parts of the organization. The retail marketing guys may look at installed base and many other variables. The sales, finance, logistics, business ops, channel sales/marketing people may also track sales-in, -through and -to depending on what they want to measure. As I mentioned before, there can also be multiple versions of average selling price and cost definitions within the same organization.
They are all legit definitions, and are not intended to confuse/fool consumers.
They are all legit definitions, and are not intended to confuse/fool consumers.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
I'll try this one more time and then I don't care whatever you choose to believe. The truth is you don't even know what you are truly saying...
You are saying that Sony doesn't report revenue they have gathered from selling their products to retail until they have verified with god knows what means that a reseller is sold resellers inventory...
Sony has sold a product, gotten money from a retailer and it's sitting in their bank account, but you think that money only appers in their income statement, books/balance sheet once they get sell through confirmation from their reseller?! Until then it's somesort of ghost money that doesn't get reported?
That makes sense to you, you think something like that can actually be done?
Retailers are the ones who are Sony's customers they are the ones Sony sells to. They get an order from their customer and sell them a console, that's a sale, that's where the revenue comes from and that is what they are reporting.
I'm sure they pay close attention to retail sales and have ways to know installed base and sell trough information with good accuracy to help adjust their production etc. but that's completely different thing and has no place in their financial statements revenue/sales section.
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
People, let's not try to muddy the water. When talking about the focus of the link's topic, what are the only reported numbers that were publicly known to be changed 4 years ago? They weren't marketing guys numbers, when making a PR announcement or anything like that. The questions and answers, from that article, were pretty specific.
I'm just choosing to go by the most direct source and not go by assumption that every other word is carefully chosen to mislead the public. IF there is some other direct evidence from an official source countering that, I will reconsider. That's only fair.
I'm just choosing to go by the most direct source and not go by assumption that every other word is carefully chosen to mislead the public. IF there is some other direct evidence from an official source countering that, I will reconsider. That's only fair.
Installed base is different from (channel) sales.
Using Sony's terminology…
The SCEE spokeperson is saying they estimate installed base using sell through figures (since 4 years ago). The finance report probably uses the sales in figures (since that's when Sony gets paid).
Presumably, Andrew House is using the installed base numbers in his quote, whereas their CFO reports the sales-in numbers.
EDIT: To complicate matters, the sales numbers used in finance reports are usually _not_ the true sales-in number. The auditors may not allow the raw number to be used. They will adjust it downwards to account for operational inefficiency (e.g., returns, overdone channel stuffing, shipment delays). The real sales-in number may be higher than reported.
Also different organizations/regions may define sales-in, sales-through (and some invent the term sales-to) slightly differently to describe their channel structures.
Using Sony's terminology…
The SCEE spokeperson is saying they estimate installed base using sell through figures (since 4 years ago). The finance report probably uses the sales in figures (since that's when Sony gets paid).
Presumably, Andrew House is using the installed base numbers in his quote, whereas their CFO reports the sales-in numbers.
EDIT: To complicate matters, the sales numbers used in finance reports are usually _not_ the true sales-in number. The auditors may not allow the raw number to be used. They will adjust it downwards to account for operational inefficiency (e.g., returns, overdone channel stuffing, shipment delays). The real sales-in number may be higher than reported.
Also different organizations/regions may define sales-in, sales-through (and some invent the term sales-to) slightly differently to describe their channel structures.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/07q1_sonypre.pdf
Bottom of page 6 it says:
"Beginning with Q1 FY07, the method of reporting hardware and software unit sales has been changed from production shipments to recorded sales"
And this is what that means (written by Viper @e-empire.com)
This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but he said it better. That is exactly how it is.
Both of you may be talking about 2 different contexts. Lucid_Dreamer may be referring to Andrew House's quote in the article he linked to (which is based on install base calculation according to the SCEE dude/dudette). The rest are talking about the reported shipment or sales-in figures.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
You know I wish you were right, but sadly I don't think that is the case. I'm certain he is talking about the shipment numbers in their financial report that had Sony shipping 3.5M PS3 last quarter. He thinks those were sold at retail and he bases that on his link.
But I quess in reality he is talking about different thing than what he thinks he is talking about
He cited the link in response to Don Mattrick's comments. Andrew House made similar note about Sony's performance (based on install base).
In his last post, he's saying regardless of how we want to deliberate about recorded sales vs shipment, it doesn't change how AH reported his numbers. Note that the auditors will not allow the sales to be recorded if the stuffing element or shipping delay is out of reasonable bounds.
In his last post, he's saying regardless of how we want to deliberate about recorded sales vs shipment, it doesn't change how AH reported his numbers. Note that the auditors will not allow the sales to be recorded if the stuffing element or shipping delay is out of reasonable bounds.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
You don't happen to have a link to that Andrew House comment by any chance?
3000 yippee!
- Status