Sony PlayStation cross-platform game strategy

[BRiT]

I don't think it'll be that big of an impact, after all, how much of a difference will there really be between any 2 single frames? The only way to have such visual inconsistencies or incoherence is perhaps in an LSD flashback or some scene where art direction is random items thrown together. That doesn't sound visually appeasing to me.

 

[Remij]

I don't think it'll be that big of an impact, after all, how much of a difference will there really be between any 2 single frames? The only way to have such visual inconsistencies or incoherence is perhaps in an LSD flashback or some scene where art direction is random items thrown together. That doesn't sound visually appeasing to me.

That's a last generation way of thinking

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That's not in action, an off screen demo running a quick flyby (with no discernible IQ) with no gameplay or any upgraded visuals is hardly "in action", let's see the solution shipped in an actual game first. Oh and let's see the supposed "no loading time" claim hold true when developers increase the scene details and texture quality to the next level, some developers already heavily question that claim in the context of the upgraded visuals and details on next gen.

I'm not sure who you think you are quoting, but nobody has claimed "no loading time". The demo was shown to Wired, to address some of your points here are the paragraphs in question - edited for brevity.

To demonstrate, Cerny fires up a PS4 Pro playing Spider-Man, a 2018 PS4 exclusive that he worked on alongside Insomniac Games. On the TV, Spidey stands in a small plaza. Cerny presses a button on the controller, initiating a fast-travel interstitial screen. When Spidey reappears in a totally different spot in Manhattan, 15 seconds have elapsed. Then Cerny does the same thing on a next-gen devkit connected to a different TV. The devkit, [is] an early “low-speed” version. What took 15 seconds now takes less than one: 0.8 seconds, to be exact.

Thereʼs also the speed with which a world can be rendered, and thus the speed with which a character can move through that world. Cerny runs a similar two-console demonstration, this time with the camera moving up one of Midtownʼs avenues. On the original PS4, the camera moves at about the speed Spidey hits while web-slinging. “No matter how powered up you get as Spider-Man, you can never go any faster than this,” Cerny says, “because that's simply how fast we can get the data off the hard drive.” On the next-gen console, the camera speeds uptown like itʼs mounted to a fighter jet. Periodically, Cerny pauses the action to prove that the surrounding environment remains perfectly crisp.​

You're welcome.

 

[chris1515]

Probably important to bold this separation and to encourage people not to lump it all into 'fastest disk speed'.

there are hard drive characteristics. There are controller characteristics and there is compression and decompression characteristics.

The combination of 3 could greatly enhance speed; but i suspect largely that an equivalent can be forged on PC.

A good fast PCIE 4/5 drive with NVME should knock off the first two. Leaving a strong CPU for the last bit.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6eca/44be96dcf1156c047656b9286485eeb51316.pdf

This is a study about decompression of SSD data on the GPU a 980 goes 43 times faster than one core of an Intel Core i7 4790(3.66 Ghz) for uncompress data on a 1GB/s SSD.

A modern core is able to uncompress 100 to 150 Mb/s of data. It means to follow the speed of a 2GB/s SSD for example it needs between 13 to 20 cores. We will all need threadripper CPU.

Use the GPU can work for loading but lost double the power of a 980 for decompress data of a 2GB/s for example is impossible on streaming and it means you need to decompress all the data at loading time and stream uncompressed data.

After I heard hmqgg talk about GPU decompression using I find this study and talk about with Quaz51(guy who find Halo resolution and was the first to count pixel) and he said before reading the SIE patent the only good solution for decompress SSD data is use ASICs. He did all the calculation for finding the SSD speed.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's not in action, an off screen demo running a quick flyby (with no discernible IQ) with no gameplay or any upgraded visuals is hardly "in action", let's see the solution shipped in an actual game first. Oh and let's see the supposed "no loading time" claim hold true when developers increase the scene details and texture quality to the next level, some developers already heavily question that claim in the context of the upgraded visuals and details on next gen.

You're mixing arguments here. First you say anything PS5 can do, PC can do. Then you say PS5 probably isn't all that anyway.

The demo your dismissing is PS4's Spider-Man. You talk about 'IQ and action' as if this could all be a smoke-and-mirrors video stream with compression artefacts or something. Cerny's a genuine engineer, so when he says it's the PS4 game streaming 8x the speed, we know it's exactly that.

Remedy's remarks are also just pointing out the obvious, and have nothing to do with raw speed. Yes, Spider-Man 2 could be speeding 8x faster through the city, or it could be loading loads more data to fly through through an 8x more detailed city at the same pace. Whatever they're doing, if the game requires 4 GB/s sustained BW and the PC can manage a fraction of that in real world applications, it'll not be able to do the same.

As to PC being ale to get the tech, of course it's a possibility. It's more a matter of need and timescale. The major issue with PC is right now, it can't get it because the filesystem is designed around random-access file patterns and arbitrary files dealing with everything from 2kb text documents to MB photos and GB videos. Any new system will have to have compatibility and not screw with the the PC side of using Windows. One possibility might be a dedicate game drive that's formatted and driven on a different standard. Another might be a honking great expensive RAM cache. Whatever solutions may arise, as far as PS5 games are concerned, it's very doubtful that in the next five years, PC will be unable to get PS5 ports if PS5 titles are dependent on this fast SSD tech. At some point the tech will be just as fast, but there's nothing to suggest that'll be possible sooner rather than later.

 

[iroboto]

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6eca/44be96dcf1156c047656b9286485eeb51316.pdf

This is a study about decompression of SSD data on the GPU a 980 goes 43 times faster than Intel Core i7 4790 for uncompress data on a 1GB/s SSD.

A modern core is able to uncompress 100 to 150 Mb/s of data. It means to follow the speed of a 2GB/s SSD you need between 13 to 20 cores. We will all need threadripper CPU.

Use the GPU can work for loading but lost double the power of a 980 for decompress data of a 2GB/s is impossible on streaming and it means you need to decompress all the data at loading time and stream uncompressed data.

After I heard hmqgg talk about GPU decompression using I find this study and talk about with Quaz51(guy who find Halo resolution and was the first to count pixel) and he said before reading the SIE patent the only good solution for decompress SSD data is use ASICs. He did all the calculation for finding the SSD speed.

A majority of texture decompression is already done by the GPU today. So my question would be, what type of data that is non-texture data that we need to be constantly decompressing as well? (aside also from audio, since that is also handled)

 

[chris1515]

A majority of texture decompression is already done by the GPU today. So my question would be, what type of data that is non-texture data that we need to be constantly decompressing as well? (aside also from audio, since that is also handled)

You can compress the texture further on disc and uncompress it in GPU format in memory. On PS5 in real-time and use the DMAC for do it in RAM if I remember well of the patent.

http://mrelusive.com/publications/papers/Real-Time-Texture-Streaming-&-Decompression.pdf

https://forum.unity.com/threads/crunched-textures-lower-some-performances.671476/

Edit: or better this

http://www.jacobstrom.com/publications/StromWennerstenHPG2011.pdf

"Lossless compression of already compressed texture."

A document bout compression of textures compressed at GPU format

 

[DavidGraham]

You're mixing arguments here. First you say anything PS5 can do, PC can do. Then you say PS5 probably isn't all that anyway.

I am not mixing anything here, I am simply responding to the claim of no loading times at all, by correctly pointing out that loading times will still be the norm by virtue of increased details, it's what next gen consoles entails, unless you are suggesting PS5 games will use PS4 era style of graphics for it's "next gen" games.

I challenge the concept that a storage solution in a console can never be duplicated on PC, that's simply an illogical idea to me.

if the game requires 4 GB/s sustained BW and the PC can manage a fraction of that in real world applications, it'll not be able to do the same.

That's the question, why would a fast NVMe drive be incapable of delivering sustained 4GB/s just like the console? Filesystem don't prevent that on PC, we already have drives capable of such feat.

but there's nothing to suggest that'll be possible sooner rather than later.

I disagree, manufacturers are gearing up to push improved SSDs and NVMe for gaming on PCs, exploiting the console's push for SSDs, I would say it's very sooner actually.

https://wccftech.com/playstation-5-xbox-scarlett-could-be-using-samsung-nvme-ssd/

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Whatever solutions may arise, as far as PS5 games are concerned, it's very doubtful that in the next five years, PC will be unable to get PS5 ports if PS5 titles are dependent on this fast SSD tech.

Able?

 

[iroboto]

You can compress the texture further on disc and uncompress it in GPU format in memory. On PS5 in real-time and use the DMAC for do it in RAM if I remember well of the patent.

http://mrelusive.com/publications/papers/Real-Time-Texture-Streaming-&-Decompression.pdf

https://forum.unity.com/threads/crunched-textures-lower-some-performances.671476/

Edit: or better this

http://www.jacobstrom.com/publications/StromWennerstenHPG2011.pdf

"Lossless compression of already compressed texture."

A document bout compression of textures compressed at GPU format

very convincing arguments here for the need for modern compression/decompression.

This paragraph 'enlightens' the discussion here

There are compressed texture formats like DXT or S3TC that can be decompressed in hardware during rasterization on current graphics cards. However, these formats are optimized for decompression in hardware and as such typically do not result in the best possible compression ratios. Graphics applications may use vast amounts of texture data that is not displayed all at once but streamed from disk as the view point moves or the rendered scene changes. Strong compression may be required to deal with such vast amounts of texture data to keep storage and bandwidth requirements within acceptable limits. As these textures are streamed from disk they have to be decompressed on the fly before they can be used for rendering on current graphics cards.

There are several formats like GIF, PNG and JPEG-LS for lossless compression of images. Lossless (reversible) image compression techniques preserve the information so that exact reconstruction of the image is possible from the compressed data. In other words there is no loss in quality when an image is compressed to one of these formats. However, these compression formats typically also do not result in compression ratios that are high enough to store vast amounts of texture data.

-
November 11th 2006 J.M.P. van Waveren

© 2006, Id Software, Inc.Abstract


**
Surprised that GPUs never took that responsibility to demand more than industry standard DXT or S3TC etc, and that a separate ASIC is needed here.

 

[chris1515]

I am not mixing anything here, I am simply responding to the claim of no loading times at all, by correctly pointing out that loading times will still be the norm by virtue of increased details, it's what next gen consoles entails, unless you are suggesting PS5 games will use PS4 era style of graphics for it's "next gen" games.

I challenge the concept that a storage solution in a console can never be duplicated on PC, that's simply an illogical idea to me.


That's the question, why would a fast NVMe drive be incapable of delivering sustained 4GB/s just like the console? Filesystem don't prevent that on PC, we already have drives capable of such feat.

I know that assets size will increase but before saying that it will increase the loading time compared to the Spiderman demo. Wait to know the SSD speed of the PS5. Knowing it for optimized games, I don't think it will be a problem at all for virtually no loading time. Like I said faster than 7GB/s.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I am not mixing anything here, I am simply responding to the claim of no loading times at all

Again, nobody claimed this.

 

[iroboto]

I know that assets size will increase but before saying that it will increase the loading time compared to the Spiderman demo. Wait to know the SSD speed of the PS5. Knowing it for optimized games, I don't think it will be a problem at all for virtually no loading time. Like I said faster than 7GB/s.

You should make an illustration on the chain. i don't have time right now (juggling 3 children and making lunch), but if you worked out the math from beginning to end, it can be fairly significant change in texture size and details. Things didn't fall into place in my head until about now.

You would have to draw very compressed data -> decompressed into memory (leave at S3TC or DXT formats) -> into GPU (where decompresses further)

Write out potential bandwidth requirements if things weren't compressed.

 

[DavidGraham]

Wait to know the SSD speed of the PS5. Knowing it for optimized games, I don't think it will be a problem at all for virtually no loading time. Like I said faster than 7GB/s.

While I highly doubt that, fine, if it's about raw speed, Samsung just announced a 6.5GB/s drive in CES, expect even faster drives moving forward.
https://www.overclock3d.net/news/st...en4_ssd_with_6_500mb_s_read_speeds_-_ces_2020

 

[chris1515]

While I highly doubt that, fine, if it's about raw speed, Samsung just announced a 6.5GB/s drive in CES, expect even faster drives moving forward.
https://www.overclock3d.net/news/st...en4_ssd_with_6_500mb_s_read_speeds_-_ces_2020

Just wait the PS5 reveal I will give the speed, just before it here. Like I said it is SSD speed multiply by compression factor.

 

[RDGoodla]

While I highly doubt that, fine, if it's about raw speed, Samsung just announced a 6.5GB/s drive in CES, expect even faster drives moving forward.
https://www.overclock3d.net/news/st...en4_ssd_with_6_500mb_s_read_speeds_-_ces_2020

PS5 games may have max 20GB for games .Let’s assume 5GB/sec of SSD.

In other words we only need 4 seconds to load. Developers only need to design a short 5-second cutscene and you won’t feel any loading.

 

[BRiT]

I'm having bad flashbacks to the early days of PC SSDs where there was plenty of talks about compression factors involved with SandForce controllers that never materialized for day to day PC storage.

 

[RDGoodla]

I know that assets size will increase but before saying that it will increase the loading time compared to the Spiderman demo. Wait to know the SSD speed of the PS5. Knowing it for optimized games, I don't think it will be a problem at all for virtually no loading time. Like I said faster than 7GB/s.

Faster than 7GB SSD on PC or real world speed faster than 7GB/s?

 

[DavidGraham]

PS5 games may have max 20GB for games .Let’s assume 5GB/sec of SSD.

We've already pushed past the 120GB for several games on the current gen, average game size is about 70GB for even medium sized games, expect PS5 games to double that amount due to increased textures and asset size.

 

[chris1515]

I'm having bad flashbacks to the early days of PC SSDs where there was plenty of talks about compression factors involved with SandForce controllers that never materialized for day to day PC storage.

The big difference devs at least first party will do it. This is not PC environment. This a console environment where they can do what they want.

Will all third party will push it? No. I think big third party title will use it for loading. Indie out of exclusives title will not push the envelope.

The only one to use if fully for loading and streaming will be first party.